Why CGs Vegeta is not far from 50% Goku

[ahill1]

He told Goku to go ahead since he'll be the one to get the job done, so I think he knew pretty well that Goku has no chance of winning, just not the fact that both Cell and Galu were stronger than him

Well, he later told Trunks that Goku must have a plan and that they should pin their hopes on it.

 

[Papasmurf]

That's after he realized they were far weaker than him, and even then he admitted Goku would just most likely lose.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I'll have you show me, Kakarrot is basically what he said. Pretty much just asking to see how good he is.

I see. Is this basically Vegeta implying he thinks what Goku showed to Karin wasn't his full power?

Or he just wants to see Goku's power in action.

 

[ahill1]

That's after he realized they were far weaker than him, and even then he admitted Goku would just most likely lose.

Does it make a difference?

 

[Papasmurf]

Yes, because afterwards they realized Goku is the only one that has a chance against Cell, so he'd be the only one to count on if they weren't planning on ganging up on him at once.

 

[Void]

I've always felt 75% of Goku was pretty fair for CG Vegeta. Everyone has covered most of the evidence here, but it seemed like Vegeta knew Goku didn't display his full power at Karin's and he was still confident he would beat Cell. And that was after Goku had already said he couldn't.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Vegeta knew SuperGoku's true power wasn't 50% lol.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Vegeta knew SuperGoku's true power wasn't 50% lol.

No, he didn't

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Vegeta knew SuperGoku's true power wasn't 50% lol.

No, he didn't

Yup, he did. There's a reason why SuperGoku was calm according to EgoVegetable and it should had to do with his power.

 

[p123]

Here's what happens.

Super Buff Trunks > Perfect Cell >> Buff Vegeta >= Buff Trunks

We realize that Super Buff Trunks is stronger, but his power is useless because of his speed. Cell tells them all to train and come back stronger so he can have a challenge.

As soon as Goku comes onto the scene, he checks out Cell. He is able to pick up on Cell's dormant power. Cell is way, way stronger than what he is showing, and it surprises Goku.

Goku comes back and tells everyone the news. Now the new mentality heading into the Cell Games is this...

Real Cell >>> Cell they fought

So everyone is completely flustered.

Goku does his power up...

50% Goku >> Cell they fought

And now because Goku doesn't think he can beat Real Cell, they assume Cell is probably somewhere around 50% Goku's power...

Piccolo trains long and hard and brings himself to his potential's full extent to more or less be on par with the power of Goku. However, Piccolo is clever enough to know that what Goku has shown, isn't all that he has. He tells Goku, as I am now, I still have no chance correct? Goku has a much better sense of Cell's power then Piccolo does, and Goku flat out tells him he is shit.

This is alarming to Trunks as he thought 50% Goku's power had to be topping out somewhere around Cell's. But lo and behold, Cell and Goku are both way, way above what he thought they were.

Vegeta either hears about it from Trunks, the group talking or he makes up his own mind about Kakkarot, knowing him so well.

Piccolo and Vegeta most likely come to their own conclusions, but they still have some hope they are wrong, a slight hope, but hope nonetheless. Trunks knows his power is garbage, he has no confidence whatsoever in his ability to do anything.

The ROSAT is a massive, massive power up. Far more powerful than most think.

Vegeta, PIccolo, Trunks all match Goku's previous power or surpass it, but only marginally so.

Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks are all garbage compared to Goku, Goku most likely can easily handle all three of them at the same time.

 

[ahill1]

Goku comes back and tells everyone the news. Now the new mentality heading into the Cell Games is this...

Real Cell >>> Cell they fought

I used to roll with that, but Trunks' line was a Viz error. All Trunks said was "Th-that cannot be! I-is that so?", rather than Cell being more powerful than he thought, as it was in Viz. So I don't think them knowing real Cell >>> Cell (vs Vegeta and Trunks) is conclusive.

But I agree with your other points. Why do you think Piccolo basically knew he was trash while Vegeta still displayed some confidence in defeating Cell? Just Vegeta's character?

And Vegeta's confidence that he'd be the one to beat Cell despite being almost sure that what Goku displayed to Karin wasn't his full power means what? Vegeta > Goku (expected) > Goku (50%)? Or just Vegeta > Goku (50%)?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. Vegeta's line (show me what you can do) meant him wanting to see Goku in action, like Piccolo had sensed SSJ Gotenks but
also wanted to see his movement.
2. Everybody had heard Goku say his max is inferior to Cell's, so they did not expect him to hide power and lie about it; they
expected him to have another plan, probably some secret technique.

 

[p123]

Goku tells the group that Cell can be much stronger when he really get down to business. Trunks responds with "Th-that cannot be! I-is that so?"

Basically, Trunks had no idea that Cell could get stronger at all, let alone much stronger.

Goku's Estimate on Cell >>> Cell that Z Team Fought

Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo all thought that was Cell's full power.

So the slight change in wording from Viz to Herms has no effect as far as I can see.

Vegeta knew he surpassed Goku's 50% power and was falsely confident about his ability, which is why he whispers " Show me what you can do Kakkarot. " We know exactly how Vegeta acts when he is truly confident. Truly confident Vegeta arrives on the scene against the Androids like a complete bully. Same for when he arrived to fight Cell the first time. This is a, stay out of my way, no one else matters, I'm fighting and everyone else is irrelevant type of guy. This time, he shows up, and he keeps his mouth shut, but he acts like he is confident, even when he is not. His actions show his true intention.

Vegeta's character, but also, it seems they come unto their conclusions on their own. Trunks might not have wanted to tell Dad not to anger him. Perhaps Vegeta already caught wind of it in his own training. Just think about Vegeta. Does a supremely confident Vegeta wait solemnly at Kami's Lookout and do what he's told like a good little boy? Does he abide by Cell's law and say no fighting until this day is ok? Of course not. Truly, supremely confident Vegeta leaves the ROSAT and guns it straight for Cell. We know just how confident Vegeta is by his actions.

 

[ahill1]

Goku tells the group that Cell can be much stronger when he really get down to business. Trunks responds with "Th-that cannot be! I-is that so?"

Basically, Trunks had no idea that Cell could get stronger at all, let alone much stronger.

Goku's Estimate on Cell >>> Cell that Z Team Fought

Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo all thought that was Cell's full power.

So the slight change in wording from Viz to Herms has no effect as far as I can see.

Goku: "I couldn't guess how strong he could become if he felt like it." (yeah, suppressed Cell/warm up is below Vegeta SSJG2, as stated by 16)
Goku: "I won't know until I try, but the way things are, I probably can't win, I bet."
Trunks: "Th-that can't be! Is that so?"

Trunks' response seems to be towards Goku's 'I probably cannot win' IMO. The "That can't be" seems more like "So you don't have a chance, either? We are lost", rather than Cell being that strong, it at least makes more sense.

Besides, it's worth note that's all a guess by Goku's side, he flat out states he won't know until he tries.

You do see it as Cell (true power/expected) >= Goku (50%/initially thought to be Goku's full power) >>> Cell (tooling Vegeta), right?

1. Vegeta's line (show me what you can do) meant him wanting to see Goku in action, like Piccolo had sensed SSJ Gotenks but
also wanted to see his movement.

Yeah, but like P pointed out, Vegeta's actions should be pretty telling. He isn't overflowing confidence, he's still very curious at Goku's power. That's not how Vegeta'd act if he thought he really is above Goku and Cell.

It remembers Piccolo's androids saga situation. Green man is confident against the androids with his new powers, but still has a bad feeling or so, because they don't really know the artificial humans' strength other than "above Mecha saga Trunks". Both met the requirements (in Piccolo's case surpassing Mecha saga trunks and in Vegeta's case surpassing 50% Goku).

 

[p123]

Interesting take on it. I am assuming that Cell's power showed through while he fought Vegeta, I don't think he was suppressing anymore and I think Goku senses his regular power, I don't think the suppressed power is relevant anymore at this stage. Also, we head into the Cell Games knowing Cell is going to power up, which would be odd if suppressed Cell's power was relevant at all.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

When Goku said ''no way to tell how strong Cell can get'', was that supposed to give us the feeling that
Expected Cell>Buffed Cell (vs Trunks) or just Expected Cell>Warm Up Cell?

 

[p123]

I think Buff Cell and Buff Trunks are just the tip of the iceberg kind of powers. After Cell dismisses Trunks power, saying how easily anyone can do this, and then giving them ten days to train, it makes the story feel that there is much more coming.

Goku without a doubt, has the best feel for Cell's power out of the group. Piccolo has a pretty good clue, but he is hoping he is wrong. Goku corrects him immediately for thinking that there was any hope. Piccolo feels foolish about his place in the hierarchy and having hope.

So all in all, I still read it to be the same.

I don't think Suppressed Cell keeps that fake power level throughout the Vegeta and Trunks fights. Nor do I think that is the power Goku senses from him.

Let's also not forget that Warm Up Goku is around Cell's base level. With no power up, Warm Up Goku is capable of matching Base Cell, who creamed USSJ Vegeta easily. Goku had to power up pretty hard to hit 50%, so I'm going to think that 50% Goku >> Warm Up..

Then that starts the whol 50% Goku vs Warm Up Goku stuff.

 

[ahill1]

Good point on Cell giving them 10 days to prepare for the Cell Games. It really gives a feel that what Cell showed to tool Vegeta wasn't his full, right? Do you think Trunks realized Cell (true power) >> Cell (warming up) as soon as Cell gave them 10 days to prepare?

Let's also not forget that Warm Up Goku is around Cell's base level. With no power up, Warm Up Goku is capable of matching Base Cell, who creamed USSJ Vegeta easily. Goku had to power up pretty hard to hit 50%, so I'm going to think that 50% Goku >> Warm Up..

Well, Goku must have done a power up before fighting Cell, whether it was to 50% or less, there sure was one. Goku resting state was said to be an everyday, ordinary level, which shows it's piss weak:


Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

 

[p123]

Yes, just like how they don't have to power up in base anymore, they don't have to power up in their resting state. They can access a solid amount of power without really trying. I think RSSJ Goku stomps USSJ Vegeta.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think resting state Goku is above SSJG2 Vegeta, since it's described as an everyday, ordinary level. Plus, Vegeta was "surprised" when Goku told him he is now a lot above him, which proves resting state isn't all that imo.