Would you guys say Yamcha, Chaozu and Kuririn have all definitely surpassed Tao Pai Pai by the 22nd Budokai?

[ahill1]

I think they did. Tao Pai seemed to be treated in high regard more due to respect Ten and Tsuru once had for him.

Roshi is already surprised Goku defeated Chappa that way, despite seeing his old powers vs Karin... And that level proved to be on equal footing with Kuririn initially... Who is slightly ahead Chaozu. So even Chaozu seems to boast more strength than Tao Pai Pai, pre Cyborg ofc.

Toriyama just got things a little muddled with references here and there, but they could be rationalized. Heck, Roshi is surprised when he sees Goku defeated Tao, but he saw Goku post Karin's power... So he likely didn't even know Tao's power. Tsuru says that NOW he understands how Goku could have defeated Tao, after he uses a level to eliminate Kuririn which Roshi admitted to be above his own level, while Roshi is >>> Tao... Meaning Tsuru was all over the place in admitting Tao was surpassed. Tenshinhan could be caught in the emotional aspect a little bit. He even only realized Cyborg Tao was no match for him when they switched hands. His respect for him likely clouded his judgement on Roshi's students defeating Tao.

Heck, Tenshinhan and Tsuru seem to start to think how Goku could have defeated Tao when he defeated Panputto using rapid consecutive blows. Something Kuririn took as a casual performance and wasn't nearly as surprised as Goku vs Chappa. It's all very weird. Maybe as Ten thought Yamcha was the top dog of the team, he severely underestimated the other students. But I don't think this hype they use to Tao as a strong piece at all to justify Tao being a force to be reckoned with in the 22nd or stronger than Yamcha and Kuririn. Nah. He's fodder, below Chappa imo.

Toriyama does these things of reviving past threats for nostalgia some times. He even had Kaioshin bringing up Freeza as a one shot range for the Kaioshins to hype Boo... When Freeza was fodder to the fodder to the fodder to SSJ2 Gohan which Kaioshin saw at the Budokai. Or the instances Freeza got brought up in the Androids saga, as Trunks one shotting him being a big deal... When Piccolo could do the same and Freeza was established as fodder ever since Trunks came and defeated him. Toriyama had this weird tendency of bringing past villains when there was no need to.

 

[Animelover5487]

There is a possibility that Goku was still holding back vs Gohan or using his full "match" power, Goku said that he doesn't use his full power in matches that aren't life or death.

That's a way you can keep everyone from being stronger than Tao.

The only real potential issue I can see is Goku saying that Kuririn is his most exciting fight yet but Goku's always had a little bias towards his best buddy.

 

[SIAD]

@ahill1 totally agree with you.

 

[Hector]

Maybe Goku wasn't a lot stronger in 22nd TB than he had been three years ago.

 

[SIAD]

Goku (Suppressed against King Chapa) proved to be far superior to what he showed to be 3 years ago against Son Gohan. Nothing suggests that Goku held back against Son Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, Gohan was clearly weaker than Goku.

I think Kuririn and Yamcha are stronger than Tao, but not by much. Maybe Chaozu ~ Tao.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Tao really isn’t as much of a measure stick as people think. Jackie reacts like that to Goku beating Tao because it means the Crane School will go for the kill on him. He never doubts his power, only Tsuru and co. (who have no idea how strong Goku is) do.

 

[Animelover5487]

Tao really isn’t as much of a measure stick as people think. Jackie reacts like that to Goku beating Tao because it means the Crane School will go for the kill on him. He never doubts his power, only Tsuru and co. (who have no idea how strong Goku is) do.

I think it's more accurate to say he was going off reputation seeing as he said that Tao was said to be the world's "greatest" assassin.

 

[SSJ2]

I think they surpassed him without a doubt. Goku's initial performances in the 22nd already outstripped what he had shown against Son Gohan, who was stronger than Tao. Krillin was able to somewhat keep up with this level of Goku before he used his Match Level power.

 

[Goku9001]

I don't think so. Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin couldn't believe that Goku had killed Tao Pai Pai until his performance against Kuririn. Both Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin are both directly acquainted with Tao Pai Pai's abilities which means that it cannot be just baseless hype. The level that Goku exhibited against Panput was higher than the one he used to tool Chappa and that wasn't enough to confirm Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin's suspicions.

I agree that Goku vs. Chappa was used to illustrate Goku's improvement over the 3 years. I would be far more inclined to believe that Chappa's strength was overhyped rather than Tao Pai Pai's. Yamcha's praise over King Chappa was not tangible. It was via word of mouth and described as a "legend" and legends are overhyped. After Goku easily defeated Chappa, the implication was that Yamucha, Kuririn, and Roshi would lose against Goku but they were ultimately revealed to be much stronger. Despite that, Kuririn, Yamucha and Goku up until his battle with Kuririn was revealed to be below Tao Pai Pai by those who were privy of his strength.

 

[Animelover5487]

I don't think so. Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin couldn't believe that Goku had killed Tao Pai Pai until his performance against Kuririn. Both Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin are both directly acquainted with Tao Pai Pai's abilities which means that it cannot be just baseless hype. The level that Goku exhibited against Panput was higher than the one he used to tool Chappa and that wasn't enough to confirm Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin's suspicions.

I agree that Goku vs. Chappa was used to illustrate Goku's improvement over the 3 years. I would be far more inclined to believe that Chappa's strength was overhyped rather than Tao Pai Pai's. Yamcha's praise over King Chappa was not tangible. It was via word of mouth and described as a "legend" and legends are overhyped. After Goku easily defeated Chappa, the implication was that Yamucha, Kuririn, and Roshi would lose against Goku but they were ultimately revealed to be much stronger. Despite that, Kuririn, Yamucha and Goku up until his battle with Kuririn was revealed to be below Tao Pai Pai by those who were privy of his strength.

How much do you subscribe to Goku still holding back vs Gohan or use his full match level? Goku said that he only uses his true power in life or death fights and even though he wanted the Dragonball he certainly didn't want to kill Gohan.

Also even though Gohan swapped hands with Goku better, Goku was notably damaged by Tao's assault while he took a point blank kick to the gut from Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Just seeing Goku in action against Pamputto was enough for Tsuru to admit Goku > Tao. He’s not a measure stick, Tsuru just thought Goku was a random kid saying crazy stuff.

 

[Goku9001]

How much do you subscribe to Goku still holding back vs Gohan or use his full match level? Goku said that he only uses his true power in life or death fights and even though he wanted the Dragonball he certainly didn't want to kill Gohan.

Also even though Gohan swapped hands with Goku better, Goku was notably damaged by Tao's assault while he took a point blank kick to the gut from Gohan.

I don't subscribe to that. Goku was at full power in both instances. Goku vs. Gohan can be considered life and death because had he lost, he wouldn't have been able to revive his friend.

I would say Gohan was stronger. Goku had to brace himself to withstand Gohan's kick. Against Tao Pai Pai, he did no such thing. He allowed Tao to rag doll him and recovered very quickly.

 

[ahill1]

Goku vs Panpoot wasn't that impressive, Kuririn didn't think high of Goku by the way he took out Panpoot. He was in awe though when Goku defeated Chappa. It's obvious Goku taking Chappa was more impressive than the latter feat. It seems Tenshinhan stated he'd have some fun in the tournament because he likely saw that demonstration was just the tip of the iceberg of Goku's strength. When Tenshinhan took on that sumo fighter with quick strikes, which was unimpressive for Kuririn and Yamcha, Goku thought Ten was really something else, meaning the actual performance isn't impressive for their standards but the implications of that being just a light demonstrations levels up their expectations.

Roshi only started to talk about how Goku and Kuririn were beyond human because they thought Pui Pui was all talk. Roshi put into perspective that Panpoot and Goku/Kuririn are masters of different realms. That's why Roshi brought up the point of master, because Goku and Kuririn never realized they had far surpasses the already big martial artists level. He didn't see the need to point that out Vs Chappa because they never doubted Chappa's strength and deemed his reputation as a hoax. Rather, they gave all the merits to Goku. That's the underlying difference. It comes way more from Goku and Kuririn's lack of awareness of how far beyond they had grown.

As for all the hype, Yamcha and Roshi saw Chappa fighting. If the thing revolved around legends not matching reality, such would be commented. Rather, it all boiled down to Goku surpassing their expectations. With Tao Pai Pai, we don't know if Roshi saw his strength... As he was amazed Goku took him out... Had already seen Goku's post Karin strength.
As for Tsuru, he thinks Tao may have been defeated after Goku discloses a level Vs Kuririn to which Roshi admitted was > himself... That level being already many layers ahead the level Goku displayed 3 years previously... Meaning Tsuru's memory, view or bias... Of Tao didn't match what he displayed earlier. So all that can be way more dismissed than the Chappa situation. Maybe they hadn't sparred for a long while, Tao got rusty over time and there was a prime Tão Pai Pai much like there was a prime Roshi and Tsuru. Or maybe he was having a hard time digesting Tao's defeat.

Tenshinhan thought Yamcha was the strongest of the students... He hadn't seen Goku in action. That may explain his initial surprise. Or some kind of denial too.

 

[Goku9001]

Both Goku and Kuririn expected Panput to be stronger than Chappa hence the surprise of how easily Goku defeated Panput and why Goku put forth more effort in the first place. That alone disproves the notion that Chappa was as terrifying as he was. Because if he was as terrifying as he was made out to be, Kuririn and Yamucha would have known their chances of beating Goku would have been impossible by their own admission. And yet, Kuririn still firmly believed he could beat Goku even after Goku unveiled more power against Panput. Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin extrapolated that Tao Pai Pai may have been beaten by Goku based on what they saw but they weren't certain until after Goku beat Kuririn. Aside from that, let's take things at face value and stop inserting our own subext into things. We know Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin have first-hand experience with Tao Pai Pai. That is more credible than hearing "legends" about someone. For the opposing argument to work, you have to assume multiple things at your convenience and this is just dishonest.

Besides, this same argument of "no one contradicted Chappa's hype after watching him" is a convenient argument to make when the opposition will gladly ignore Pui Pui's supposed feats at their convenience.

 

[ahill1]

I feel like I've addressed all these things in your post. Responding your post would just be a reiteration of what I said...

 

[Goku9001]

I feel like I've addressed all these things in your post. Responding your post would just be a reiteration of what I said...

You didn't. You present Goku vs. Panput as some evidence because Kuririn wasn't impressed while ignoring why Goku and Kuririn was impressed why Goku managed to defeat him quickly in the first place. Then, you operate on multiple assumptions to undermine Tenshinhan's and Tsuru-sennin's assumptions of Tao Pai Pai's strength. It really doesn't matter if Chappa's strength wasn't immediately called into question when Yamucha and Kuririn still place their bets on winning despite having doubts prior. It would just mean they overestimated Goku's power based on beating Chappa in general. You act as though you addressed this but you really didn't.

But yeah, like I said. If Chappa lived up to the hype because Roshi and Yamucha didn't doubt Chappa's strength, then obviously the same should apply to Pui Pui where Kaioshin and Babidi alike didn't have doubt of Pui Pui's power. In the end, Goku didn't claim Chappa was strong. He stated he put no effort in defeating him whereas when discussing Tao Pai Pai with Roshi, he blatantly stated Tao Pai Pai was strong in present tense. Goku has first-account experience with both fighters. Certainly, his assessment would be relevant here.

Keep in mind that if you're expecting me to nitpick every point, I won't do that. Arguments become way too long if I did that.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

Of course. Every notable fighter at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai (except Pamput and Manwolf) is much stronger than organic Tao.

 

[Yoshi]

Of course. Every notable fighter at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai (except Pamput and Manwolf) is much stronger than organic Tao.

Piccolo Daimao of all people in the 23rd Budokai is like Freeza is during the Boo Saga. A measuring stick.

 

[ahill1]

You didn't. You present Goku vs. Panput as some evidence because Kuririn wasn't impressed while ignoring why Goku and Kuririn was impressed why Goku managed to defeat him quickly in the first place. Then, you operate on multiple assumptions to undermine Tenshinhan's and Tsuru-sennin's assumptions of Tao Pai Pai's strength. It really doesn't matter if Chappa's strength wasn't immediately called into question when Yamucha and Kuririn still place their bets on winning despite having doubts prior. It would just mean they overestimated Goku's power based on beating Chappa in general. You act as though you addressed this but you really didn't.

But yeah, like I said. If Chappa lived up to the hype because Roshi and Yamucha didn't doubt Chappa's strength, then obviously the same should apply to Pui Pui where Kaioshin and Babidi alike didn't have doubt of Pui Pui's power. In the end, Goku didn't claim Chappa was strong. He stated he put no effort in defeating him whereas when discussing Tao Pai Pai with Roshi, he blatantly stated Tao Pai Pai was strong in present tense. Goku has first-account experience with both fighters. Certainly, his assessment would be relevant here.

Keep in mind that if you're expecting me to nitpick every point, I won't do that. Arguments become way too long if I did that.

I'm going back to this since I'm kinda bored.

Kuririn wasn't impressed because the performance overall wasn't that much impressive, because Goku beat up someone supposedly very strong in a quick as lightning fashion. Roshi isn't saying that they're above human's level due to that feat warranting him saying that... He's saying so because Goku and Kuririn thought Panput was nothing and that Goku even thought he was having a bad day. Roshi is there just to present the fact they're in a level that they can defeat very strongly by ordinary fighters standards guys like nothing. Think about the way Roshi told them that, too... If it revolved around Goku displaying some kind of power unseen by them before, Roshi would be surprised, just like he was when Goku defeated Chappa, saying something like "this lad doesn't ceaze to amaze me"... He was collected and there much more like a guy up to par of the situation and informing wisely that Goku and Kuririn's levels are already absurdly high. There's not much to the scene.

Those Tao Pai Pai things aren't assumptions at all. They are presumptions based on data and logic from the story. You just couldn't counter any of them, it seems. If you think Tsuru's idea of Tao's power concretely matched what he showed vs Goku, then you better think Tao Pai Pai was 22nd Budokai Roshi's level... As Tsuru came to the conclusion his brother was defeated when Goku used his full match level to defeat Kuririn, a level admitted by Roshi to be > himself. On the contrary, they all saw Chappa on the play with their own eyes. How can't you see one situation is much more grounded than the other?

The scene with Pui Pui would imply that in regard to Babidi and Kaioshin, yeah... Because that's totally the feeling the narrative gives. They don't comment (Kaioshin more specifically, as Babidi should be aware of Pui Pui's powers) how Pui Pui was a disappointment and that he had exaggerated on being so worried. Rather, the emphasis was all on Vegeta's power. It'd imply Pui Pui wasn't off Shin's expectations, while reading that scene as its own thing, yeah. The problem is that Shin witnessed SSJ2 Gohan's power in the Budokai... Which was way above any power Vegeta could put forth in base. Therein come some theories that a) the whole perspective on Shin was retconned, b) Shin was impressed Vegeta could clobber an enemy that level while in base), c) Shin was worried shitless of Boo and was playing cautious in situations like those, tossing even his logical abilities into the wind, since he has PTSD. All those explanations came precisely because Shin's excessive worriness were never attributed specifically, in the story, to him overestimating Babidi's warriors based on their reputation... Rather, Shin always emphasized how the Saiyans kept surprising him. That's why ppl think, and rightly so, it's bad writing since Shin was established before as way above Piccolo and wasn't THAT impressed (not as impressed as with base Vegeta) with SSJ2 Gohan and think of those theories.