Would you take Super's take...

ahill1

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... On the kids power?

Like, there in the manga there was a strong suggestion they were on the Cell Juniors' level. Vegeta stated his kid was as good as CGs Trunks.

Would you let that make you reinterpret whatever take you had of their power from the original manga?
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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That’s where most people have the boys anyway. Only people who have the boys below 18 disagree.
 

SSJ2

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That seems a little low to me. Weren't they fighting all of the Cell Juniors anyway?
 

Papasmurf

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The manga depicted SSJ Goten as enough to pressure SSJ Gohan so much he had to fly to avoid his blows. I'm not convinced they're on Cell Junior level because a bad fanfic artist-turned-mangaka and an AT who probably doesn't remember Super Saiyan 3 ok'd a depiction where they fought Cell Juniors.
 

Power Level Guy

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Of course. If the source material is that clear on something who are we to go against it? This is not merely some supplemental material, this is bonafide source material.
 

Miss Scarlet

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Yes. Any new confirmation of the manga that is shown to us it is more valid than our previous interpretation of the material. Newer material just serves to the purpose of clarifying the doubts of the manga we use to have and they have the right to change whatever it wants as shown with how potara is no longer eternal when it was back on dbz.
 

The_Authority

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The manga depicted SSJ Goten as enough to pressure SSJ Gohan so much he had to fly to avoid his blows. I'm not convinced they're on Cell Junior level because a bad fanfic artist-turned-mangaka and an AT who probably doesn't remember Super Saiyan 3 ok'd a depiction where they fought Cell Juniors.
If Super Saiyan Gohan fight the Cell Juniors during the Cell Games, would he not fly to avoid their blows? Keep in mind that Gohan didn't train in all that time. What's more, Gohan got even weaker during the seven years of peace.
 

Papasmurf

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If Super Saiyan Gohan fight the Cell Juniors during the Cell Games, would he not fly to avoid their blows? Keep in mind that Gohan didn't train in all that time. What's more, Gohan got even weaker during the seven years of peace.
Given that Gohan basically had less than a month to train seriously due to Video's interference and managed to get up to Dabura's level (who's comparable to PC), I have trouble believing he'd need to strain himself to block a Cell Jr's blows. In the CG he'd mop the floor with multiple Cell Jr's imo, even if he alone probably would have a lot of trouble taking all seven of them.
 

Future Warrior

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They literally got jumped by people over half their power level while expecting to be looking after some wildlife.

What else do you want from them?
 
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ahill1

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They literally got jumped by people over half their power level while expecting to be looking after some wildlife.

What else do you want from them?
I think the main point ppl use for the kids being ~ the cell Juniors' would be Vegeta stating to 17 that his kid was as strong as what he saw from future Trunks, taking that alongside with them needing to put up effort to stop the Cell Juniors' blows.

I think people assume Vegeta knew that 17 knew about CGs Trunks since that would be the only comparison that would make sense with the kids being able to stop the Cell Juniors' blows, not a feat pre RoSaT future Trunks, who as far as the original manga went, Vegeta knew 100% sure that 17 had seen it, could accomplish. Plus the fact 17 informed Goku he was watching and was aware of all the events inside Cell, and Goku apparently got Vegeta into some insights from 17, as Goku and Vegeta talked to each other afterwards and Vegeta firstly said to 17 that "I heard you have been working very hard".
 

Future Warrior

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I think the main point ppl use for the kids being ~ the cell Juniors' would be Vegeta stating to 17 that his kid was as strong as what he saw from future Trunks, taking that alongside with them needing to put up effort to stop the Cell Juniors' blows.
I don't particularly care how strong kid Trunks is, maybe he's as strong as CG Trunks. But just for the sake of discussion, I'll tell you this.

1. It could just be a general comparison rather than literal

2. We see Kid Trunks holding back 3 of them, which on the surface looks better than what CG Trunks did which was essentially only doing that in a 1v1 but on the losing end of it.
 

Power Level Guy

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Vegeta implies that he knows 17 knows how strong Future Trunks is. There's no reason to doubt him.
 

ahill1

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I don't particularly care how strong kid Trunks is, maybe he's as strong as CG Trunks. But just for the sake of discussion, I'll tell you this.

1. It could just be a general comparison rather than literal

2. We see Kid Trunks holding back 3 of them, which on the surface looks better than what CG Trunks did which was essentially only doing that in a 1v1 but on the losing end of it.
Agreed.
 

Power Level Guy

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Occam's Razor, the kids are as strong as Vegeta says they are. This is such a simple issue, it's madness to see it being debated against.
 

Power Level Guy

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Original manga implies otherwise
Original manga is equal weight to the new manga. Therefore what comes later supersedes what came before.

You don't seem to understand the latter part of my statement. That's why you still struggle with Piccolo vs Base Saiyans, because you aren't following logic.

Later sagas overwrite previous sagas and force new interpretations of the older material. That's what retcons do. You don't get to hold onto the retconned material.
 

ahill1

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Original manga is equal weight to the new manga. Therefore what comes later supersedes what came before.

You don't seem to understand the latter part of my statement. That's why you still struggle with Piccolo vs Base Saiyans, because you aren't following logic.

Later sagas overwrite previous sagas and force new interpretations of the older material. That's what retcons do. You don't get to hold onto the retconned material.
Piccolo vs base Saiyans would be different because people take that angle with strong suggestions from the Boo arc. Obviously, the Boo arc would be capable to shedding light in anything half confirmed or implied in the Cell arc, as it's part of the main continuity done by Toriyama shortly after, with the same editor and the same team. If it ended in the Cell arc and no additional interview on the matter, most ppl would assume Ten was > Kuririn. But since in the Boo saga Yamcha made a clear statement that Kuririn was the strongest earthling, as far as the manga went, that'd be a sealed deal on any implications from the Cell arc.

... Not implications made from a manga that was written more than 20 years later, which already possesses many contradictions towards the original material. It's perfectly understandable to keep one's original interpretation, backed up by the original manga, over whatever the Super manga implied considering it isn't a work done under the same feeling the original work was produced. Even when it had Toriyama's backing, Toriyama won't always have the same views and fresh opinions and take on things he had when writing it back in the 90s. If even the author is not infallible, as an author can contradict his own work, it stands true for Toriyama 20 years later who admitted he had to reread the manga to be familiar with it. And even then, he left things pass like inconsistent portrayal from Goku admitting he was never one to listen to his master, which is contradicted by Roshi in the 22nd Budokai highlighting how one of Goku strong suits was his ability to always listen to advices. If Toriyama didn't outright correct scenes that did not remain true to the original manga's portrayal of Goku, he doesn't need to draw attention to specifics of power scaling either, like "you're making the kids too weak"... That just would be very unlikely to happen.
 

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