Would you take Super's take...

[Power Level Guy]

Dragonball's legitimacy is not dependent on having a specific editorial team. This does not affect what's canon and what's not.

Dragonball's legitimacy is not dependent on the length of time the break was. Whether 20 years or 5 months, it's still all just Dragonball.

Dragonball's legitimacy is not dependent on the "freshness" of the original author.

These are all non-sequiturs. These are not valid reasons for the watering down of the series legitimacy.

This is not an opinion, these are the facts. You are using faulty reasoning to try to reduce the canonicity of the continuations.

This is purely a logical error.

 

[ahill1]

I'm not arguing whether Super is canon or not. It is canon. So is the Daizenshuu. So is the SEG. I'm arguing whether it is consistent with the original manga portrayal. Many things are not. We don't just blindly accept anything from Super without critically looking at the original manga. This isn't how debating works. We also take into account other details from Super which weren't well and faithfully portrayed, the context, and all those things.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The original series never narrowed it down how strong the boys are. They just say “wow they’re so strong” and that’s why it was a debate for so long.

Not the first time Super clears something up and people go “nah my power level list knows better” though.

 

[ahill1]

The original manga had strong implications that were never made a case, within it, to show these implications as invalid themselves. If Gohan was shown struggling when avoiding Goten's blows not once but twice, the second one later on with their sparring being shown to be more aggressive and straining, then the obvious implications there is that Goten wasn't too far from Gohan. If you argue that those suggestions that came in a series already shown not to care 100% for consistency retroactively make us see that scene having in mind Gohan was using, like, 66% of his powers so he could get a better workout then ok... But as far as the original manga went, it was incredibly consistent is giving clues to when the warriors held back... It was never that vague or openly not hinted, at all. So as far as it went, these were no generic implications from generic "showing surprise" comments, they were actual feats that corroborated their surprise and had official data from the days not shedding light at any holding back either, on the opposite, going as far as to say Goten wasn't even inferior to Gohan...

Surprisingly, the Daizenshuu seemed consistency in taking the feats from the manga just as they were presented without clarifying how those feats were only achievable when seen under the perspective of holding back fighters. Both when stating Goten was equal Gohan and that the kids demonstrated strength on par with android #18 except for the SSJ part, hence why, "they showed strength on par with her until she saw through their costume".

 

[Miss Scarlet]

The original series never narrowed it down how strong the boys are. They just say “wow they’re so strong” and that’s why it was a debate for so long.

Not the first time Super clears something up and people go “nah my power level list knows better” though.

I agree pretty much with this.

@ahill1

You can't say goten was equivalent or near gohan based on him pressuring gohan, base goku was pressuring frieza, remember? It doesn't mean goku was anywhere near frieza, goku could also manage to get hits on frieza yet goten couldn't do it with gohan. Gohan vs goten gap > frieza gap over base goku blocking hits with his legs

Also mighty mask vs android 18 left even more space of interpretation. Just because they were trading blows for a while it means they have the same power? Trunks do it with cell, vegeta too, base goku and frieza were trading blows, same with piccolo and android 17, among many examples

There were no definitive clues about goten and trunks power back on dbz and then we are getting much more clear references, yet people is complaining? Really?

 

[Power Level Guy]

I'm not arguing whether Super is canon or not. It is canon. So is the Daizenshuu. So is the SEG. I'm arguing whether it is consistent with the original manga portrayal. Many things are not. We don't just blindly accept anything from Super without critically looking at the original manga. This isn't how debating works. We also take into account other details from Super which weren't well and faithfully portrayed, the context, and all those things.

The Daizenshuu is not canon, neither is the SEG. They are supplemental guidebooks. The manga is canon.

Your interpretation on how things works is backwards. We compare source material to source material. Later source material overrides earlier source material.

The original manga had strong implications that were never made a case, within it, to show these implications as invalid themselves. If Gohan was shown struggling when avoiding Goten's blows not once but twice, the second one later on with their sparring being shown to be more aggressive and straining, then the obvious implications there is that Goten wasn't too far from Gohan. If you argue that those suggestions that came in a series already shown not to care 100% for consistency retroactively make us see that scene having in mind Gohan was using, like, 66% of his powers so he could get a better workout then ok... But as far as the original manga went, it was incredibly consistent is giving clues to when the warriors held back... It was never that vague or openly not hinted, at all. So as far as it went, these were no generic implications from generic "showing surprise" comments, they were actual feats that corroborated their surprise and had official data from the days not shedding light at any holding back either, on the opposite, going as far as to say Goten wasn't even inferior to Gohan...

Surprisingly, the Daizenshuu seemed consistency in taking the feats from the manga just as they were presented without clarifying how those feats were only achievable when seen under the perspective of holding back fighters. Both when stating Goten was equal Gohan and that the kids demonstrated strength on par with android #18 except for the SSJ part, hence why, "they showed strength on par with her until she saw through their costume".

Your interpretations of the original manga doesn't supersede Super's.

 

[ahill1]

The Daizenshuu is not canon, neither is the SEG. They are supplemental guidebooks. The manga is canon.

Your interpretation on how things works is backwards. We compare source material to source material. Later source material overrides earlier source material.


Your interpretations of the original manga doesn't supersede Super's.

It does since it's more based.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It does since it's more based.

You are floundering so badly here.

Your interpretation of the original manga does not supersede Super's new information.

You don't have a leg to stand on.

1. Time Difference

It's irrelevant, it's still Dragonball.

2. Author not in his prime

Irrelevant, the author is still the author.

3. Quality

Irrelevant, author's are allowed to make crappy work that overrides their previous glorious work.


You legit don't have a case. This isn't merely an opinion issue, you are factually wrong here.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The original manga had strong implications that were never made a case, within it, to show these implications as invalid themselves. If Gohan was shown struggling when avoiding Goten's blows not once but twice, the second one later on with their sparring being shown to be more aggressive and straining, then the obvious implications there is that Goten wasn't too far from Gohan. If you argue that those suggestions that came in a series already shown not to care 100% for consistency retroactively make us see that scene having in mind Gohan was using, like, 66% of his powers so he could get a better workout then ok... But as far as the original manga went, it was incredibly consistent is giving clues to when the warriors held back... It was never that vague or openly not hinted, at all. So as far as it went, these were no generic implications from generic "showing surprise" comments, they were actual feats that corroborated their surprise and had official data from the days not shedding light at any holding back either, on the opposite, going as far as to say Goten wasn't even inferior to Gohan...

Surprisingly, the Daizenshuu seemed consistency in taking the feats from the manga just as they were presented without clarifying how those feats were only achievable when seen under the perspective of holding back fighters. Both when stating Goten was equal Gohan and that the kids demonstrated strength on par with android #18 except for the SSJ part, hence why, "they showed strength on par with her until she saw through their costume".

Implications are one thing, how people interpret them is another. DBS is totally on line with the interpretation that the boys pretty much in the same tier as the adults. Calculating that the boys must be at least 90% of Gohan is just fanmade estimations. If even P is conceding that the actual story > power gaps here, then it says a lot.

Everyone sees Vegeta vs 18 and goes "Oh well she must have been holding back" because we're later told he was trash to her (except those guidebooks that say they were equals). This is an even more blatant case of the series paying little attention to continuity. With Goten and Trunks it's not even an inconsistency, you're just assuming Goten can't train with Gohan unless they have the same power.

 

[ahill1]

The bulk of the arguments here is basically the insistent on the assumption that narrative developments in Dragon Ball Super must retroactively redirect our understanding of the original Dragon Ball manga's events and character dynamics. I'm not even saying this perspective is wrong... and I've been saying, weigh in more whatever you feel like to, but the insistence in not acknowledging the opposite fails to acknowledge the preference of the original story integrity and narrative context of the original work.

Insisting that later interpretations or expansions should overwrite the original narrative's established implications and character feats are you ppl disregarding the authorial intent someone can easily argued strongly for in the original, raw evidence present at the time of the original manga's publication. The instances regarding Gohan and Goten's sparring sessions are not mere implications but were presented with a degree of narrative clarity and consistency. The original manga, as I've already noted, took great care in showcasing the clarity of when a feat wasn't to be taken as they were intended, often providing clear indications when characters were holding back or not exerting their full effort.

Moreover, the argument pretty much bounces back on the notion that the passage of time and different approaches would be irrelevant and that the involvement of the original author in Super grant it an overriding authority over the original narrative. This perspective not only undermines the original work's narrative autonomy but also the readers' interpretative freedom within the original manga. Just as an author's later works can enrich and expand upon his original and fresh work, they can also diverge or even contradict. It is totally the right of the audience, fans, debaters to examine such instances critically with these new implications, weighing them against the established --- or at least very well backed up --- narrative coherence of the original work...

... My stance does not stem from a misinterpretation or an overreliance on implications but from a grounded analysis of the original manga's narrative as it having its own merit, integrity and consistency. Insisting otherwise (or that one way if the definitive one) is to dismiss the evidence and narrative value that defined the original work and to be very close minded, while ironically, stating I am close minded for not even insisting my way is the right way, but to argue I rather weigh evidences like this.....

 

[Power Level Guy]

The bulk of the arguments here is basically the insistent on the assumption that narrative developments in Dragon Ball Super must retroactively redirect our understanding of the original Dragon Ball manga's events and character dynamics.

Exactly. That's how it works. What happens in the Buu Saga overrides possible implications from the Cell Saga, ala Tien > Krillen.

and I've been saying, weigh in more whatever you feel like to, but the insistence in not acknowledging the opposite fails to acknowledge the preference of the original story integrity and narrative context of the original work.

You can prefer that, you just can't debate that is what I've been saying. "Super is less canon" is not a real debate argument. No matter how you dress it up.

Moreover, the argument pretty much bounces back on the notion that the passage of time and different approaches would be irrelevant and that the involvement of the original author in Super grant it an overriding authority over the original narrative.

Of course it has overriding authority by being later. Toriyama speaks about how he as the original author had the freedom to interpret things differently.

authorial intent someone can easily argued strongly for in the origina

Irrelevant. Later authorial intent supersedes previous authorial intent.

The instances regarding Gohan and Goten's sparring sessions are not mere implications but were presented with a degree of narrative clarity and consistency.

Which were completely chucked in later portions of the series.



All this dressing up to essentially say that your interpretation > Super's, which doesn't work.

I don't know if there are any other ways to relay this point at this point.

Your interpretation does not matter when faced with the interpretation of later source material.

This is just a cope.

 

[ahill1]

Wait, didn't you say you had a superior battle power system than Toriyama's numbers, because Toriyama couldn't keep consistency with his own numbers?

So now you think whoever argues Piccolo should be stronger than the humans in the 23rd Budokai by more than the scouters suggested are just coping, huh? Nice!

 

[Power Level Guy]

That’s a completely different thing. I’m not arguing what it is, I’m arguing what it should be. The premise comes along with the acceptance that it’s not reality, whereas you think your narrative is. Hence the difference.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, no use to continue this. You show time and time again to be someone hard to have a constructive debate with. Sometimes you will be perfectly nice to have a discussion, other times you'll show completely close mindness and attitudes that's just off-putting to continue the debate. Boring and a waste of time it would be.

It's many times nice and constructive debates I've had with you. But also a lot of times, you having your way as a superior logic while just reiterating the same thing and being unwilling to acknowledge anything.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I’m sorry, “Super is less canon” is not any real position to hold in the debating realm. I can’t stress this error enough. It’s not a matter of opinion here. If stating the facts dissuades you, it might be time to look at why instead of rebelliously holding onto your position.

 

[ahill1]

Ok, getting back at the argument at hand, I think I overdid it in the last answer, but in regards to Piccolo vs base Saiyans... You have RoF Gohan < 25th Budokai Gohan... And yet, you have this Gohan > Piccolo. In the DBS manga, it's stated, right after the arc, that Piccolo would have been chosen over the kids because the latter ones don't have enough power yet... So if RoF base Gohan was > Piccolo > kids... How do you rationalize the fact the kids are even CGs Vegeta's powers when that would mean Budokai base Gohan was also above that power, going off power alone? There's no way the kids are way weaker even than base Boo saga Gohan, as much as you think their sparring session doesn't mean much.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Ok, getting back at the argument at hand, I think I overdid it in the last answer, but in regards to Piccolo vs base Saiyans... You have RoF Gohan < 25th Budokai Gohan... And yet, you have this Gohan > Piccolo. In the DBS manga, it's stated, right after the arc, that Piccolo would have been chosen over the kids because the latter ones don't have enough power yet... So if RoF base Gohan was > Piccolo > kids... How do you rationalize the fact the kids are even CGs Vegeta's powers when that would mean Budokai base Gohan was also above that power, going off power alone? There's no way the kids are way weaker even than base Boo saga Gohan, as much as you think their sparring session doesn't mean much.

There you go. Using Super to add to your position, not having to take a different approach.

As of right now, I'm going with Piccolo getting a massive power-up. But this issue has been nagging me quite a bit, I definitely need to dive into it more. What's the exact quote?

 

[ahill1]

There you go. Using Super to add to your position, not having to take a different approach.

As of right now, I'm going with Piccolo getting a massive power-up. But this issue has been nagging me quite a bit, I definitely need to dive into it more. What's the exact quote?

Goku suggested choosing Boo and Piccolo. The fact he said Bop for sure and then Piccolo would imply Boo is still stronger. The reason for not choosing Gohan lied on Gohan being into academics, not in how powerful he thinks Piccolo has become, which he couldn't know. From BoG to RoF, Gohan already got way weaker, losing his Ultimate state totally... So with more time passed since the battle with Freeza, it could very well be Gohan is even less in shape if Goku assumes he continued dedicating to studies.

Of course, Goten and Trunks aren't even mentioned... So that'd mean Goku sees Piccolo as more capable than them. He didn't know Piccolo got a power up as he didn't mention that. If Piccolo is above the kids there according to Goku, he'd be also above the Cell Juniors in the RoF events, last time Goku had seen Piccolo... And therefore, RoF Gohan would be >> the SSJ kids as well... Which doesn't work.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Piccolo is operating on a God level, he had to power up.

He’s not God level in RoF.

Piccolo (U6) > Base Goku (U6)

Considering how Goku shows no surprise over Piccolo’s strength, he must have been made aware of it before.

Also Goku’s choices aren’t power based. The kid’s power at RoF was sufficient but they declined to go that route because of maturity.

Piccolo even at RoF is a better choice than the boys, who can fuse into Gotenks and have way more power than everyone else. Yet still they decline.

 

[ahill1]

Goku stated Piccolo hadn't a chance vs Frost even in a bazillion years... The fight showed otherwise as Piccolo was keeping up with Frost, even though Frost had the advantage:

Goku was shown surprised with Piccolo once he dished out his first attacks and complimented Piccolo for being awesome:

Besides, the fact Goku states "Boo, for sure!!" firstly when thinking about who'd be chosen for the tournament means he didn't think Piccolo was in God level at all.