Yamcha (23rd Tenkaichi Budokai) vs Goku (Post Holy Water)

[Pakl]

Who wins?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku is most likely stronger considering how Tenshinhan still praised his abilities from 3 years ago highly, though Yamcha would likely win due to Goku lacking an effective counter to the Sokidan.

 

[GSM123]

Goku gets Sokidan'd into defeat.

 

[p123]

Goku is probably too fast and strong for Yamcha here. When Shen goes all out, is he above Goku @PD? I'm not sure. Yamcha can watch Goku vs Tien but cannot see Tien's full speed. I think he can see Shen.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Tenshinhan's full speed was far above post-Choshinsui Goku though, with him saying that speed was the only area weighted Goku hadn't improved much from 3 years ago, so I wouldn't say that's the best comparison if a slightly faster Goku couldn't even keep up with Ten's full speed.

 

[Keedounan]

As already stated, the Sokidan would prove to be too troublesome for Goku. Yamcha wins.

 

[SSJ2]

Shen would one shot Piccolo Daimao or Goku from that arc. Nothing implies that he would be significantly weaker than Kami..

As for the thread, I think Goku can win if he can keep Yamcha from using Sokidan. If he allows Yamcha to have time and space, he'll end up losing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Nothing implies that he would be significantly weaker than Kami..

Not when fully releasing his Ki, no, though it was made apparent what he used against Yamcha wasn't close to his limit as it was only once he started fighting Piccolo that Tenshinhan and co. were aware of how outclassed they were. I'd definitely disagree with the notion of Initial Shen being only on Piccolo Daimao's level, though I wouldn't deny an argument could be made.

 

[SSJ2]

I was referring to where P asked if Shen is above PD arc Goku when going all out.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Didn't notice he said all out. Yeah, there's no doubt Shen would be leagues above Daimao at that point.

 

[p123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

What's the relevance of Tien's speed here?

@[mention]SuperSaiyan2[/mention]

My bad, I meant Shen going all out @Yamcha. His highest level at his suppressed level.

 

[SSJ2]

No worries. Which all out are we talking here? Pre or post sokidan? After Shen got caught with the Sokidan I think he powered up a bit when he took out Yamcha. I’d think based on what you’ve said, Shen pre Sokidan might be weaker than PD arc Goku, but after increasing his speed definitely not.

 

[p123]

Yamcha can see Shen's movements, whereas Yamcha cannot see Tien. Tien's full speed is far superior to Shen's full speed @Yamcha.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What's the relevance of Tien's speed here?

Tenshinhan said speed was the one area Goku hadn't improved massively, showing he'd still improved it from 3 years ago. In other words, 23rd TB Ten >> Weighted Goku > Post-Choshinsui Goku in terms of speed and weighted Goku could barely keep up, so using Yamcha not being able to track Ten's full speed as evidence for him being below the Goku from 3 years ago doesn't really work.

 

[p123]

Yamcha not being able to keep up with Tien's full speed just affirms that Shen is not on Tien's full speed's level.

Tien Full Speed > Shen/Tien/Goku > Yamcha

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Which doesn't really say anything about how Yamcha would fare against post-Choshinsui Goku when both Weighted Goku (bar his speed) and Tenshinhan are far above that version of Goku in every way.

 

[p123]

Yeah, which is why I found it odd for you to bring up Tien.

So then we are brought back to the situation of Weighted Goku, his comparison to previous Goku and Yamcha's relation to that.

How do you feel Shen compares to Piccolo Daimao?

Hey CC, can we do this in the Discord? I've been wanting to get into this topic more in depth and do a page by page approach. Hit me up in the chat I'm Liberty1 if you have time for it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I brought it up because you brought up Yamcha not being able to track Ten as a reason for why he ought to not be able to keep up with post-Choshinsui Goku, despite that Goku being far below Ten's speed anyway to the point a slightly faster Goku couldn't track him.

As for Initial Shen, it's difficult to judge as his performance was primarily based on not putting in serious effort until being hit by the Sokidan and then blitzed and oneshotted Yamcha. The level of power he outputted could be on par with Tenshinhan yet he may not have been putting in the effort to match until the tail end of the fight. Having him at least bordering Ten's level would make sense considering Yamcha is lumped together with Kuririn throughout most of the arc and he was commended quite a bit by a Piccolo stronger than Daimao. I'd say either of them ought to be bordering Daimao's full power, with Initial Shen being far above that like Ten is.

 

[p123]

Shen is absolutely impressive. Tien and Goku pretty much look at him in awe during his fight with Yamcha.

And the way Goku vs Tien starts out, it feels like it may be a step down from Shen's ability. I think Tien's full speed is above Shen's shown ability as well. And by a good margin actually.

What makes you think Krillen and Yamcha are on PD's level?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd agree to that, though their awe could also be from them not expecting someone so capable to be outside of their group and Piccolo, considering how far above the 22nd TB any of the top 8 in the 23rd are.