Fusion Multipliers

[GSM123]

Actually it's because Kibito is piss weak. 2 Shin's fusing could be closer to Gotenks.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Actually it's because Kibito is piss weak. 2 Shin's fusing could be closer to Gotenks.

He can't be though. Because Shin is only Base tier and fusion is exponential and based off of top power. So the SSJ fusion boost is way higher than the Base fusion boost.

 

[SSJ2]

Here's my counter to the Base fusion > strongest power. If Goku fused with Mr. Satan you're telling me his Base form would be above SSJ3 Goku? I think the weaker fighter has as much of an influence as the strongest power.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Here's my counter to the Base fusion > strongest power. If Goku fused with Mr. Satan you're telling me his Base form would be above SSJ3 Goku? I think the weaker fighter has as much of an influence as the strongest power.

No, there’s limits of course. The anime implies Goku getting a little stronger or even weaker as an option.

Every successful fusion we’ve seen in the history of Dragonball has had Base Fusion > Top Power Fuser at least always for the weaker fighter. I’d have to check Kefla but yea.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

Here's my counter to the Base Fusion > strongest power:

The take away from this is either the Super Saiyan multipliers drastically decrease or the strongest form of the fusion is irrelevant to the merger. Why the strongest form of the fusees would factor into a fusions base level is beyond me when they have the same forms. Surely it should scale off the same form.

This has been my answer to the confusing scaling of not only the fusion forms, but the power of Goku and Vegeta after training with God Ki, for the longest time, and it hasn't failed me so far.

 

[GSM123]

It has to be. If it's exponential, it has to be based on top power. You can't have exponential and not have top power. Because then those who rival the top power would be way stronger than those who transform to top power.

He can't be though. Because Shin is only Base tier and fusion is exponential and based off of top power. So the SSJ fusion boost is way higher than the Base fusion boost.

We have mostly only seen Saiyan fusions, so there's no way to tell whether two Toppo's fusing would rival Base Gogeta or Gogeta Blue, for example. Kibito being piss weak means Kibitoshin can't compared to Gotenks. We also aren't 100% sure of Base Gotenks. SSJ2 has Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta, but we have him at SSJ Goku or FP Cell level.

So I gave all fusions a quick look. Here I talk about Zamasu and Kefla:

Spoiler

DBS definitely pulls for strongest form being used for calc, no doubt about it. Base Black is SSJ3 or SSJG level and Zamasu is SSJ2 level, but Fused Zamasu was just SSJB level (Idk if the anime purple goo form is his FP or Black's insta-zenkai). I think we can draw a parallel between Zamasu and Z Super Vegetto here. Both are SSJ3 + SSJ2.

Anime Kefla is nuts. The girls were getting folded by SSJG Goku and Base Kefla blitzes him. SSJ Kefla KO's KKx20+SSJB Goku and is compared to a Genki Dama. Kale was closer to SSJG, but that's still an insane boost. SSJ2 Kefla might be stronger than Vegetto Blue ffs. Manga Kefla is barely stronger than Kale, but I blame the big gap between the girls for that.

So it's definitely strongest form, but idk about exponential. SSJG could be or measure stick but the multiplier is a mystery.

 

[GSM123]

The take away from this is either the Super Saiyan multipliers drastically decrease or the strongest form of the fusion is irrelevant to the merger. Why the strongest form of the fusees would factor into a fusions base level is beyond me when they have the same forms. Surely it should scale off the same form.

This has been my answer to the confusing scaling of not only the fusion forms, but the power of Goku and Vegeta after training with God Ki, for the longest time, and it hasn't failed me so far.

I was going to bring this same entry (Plus Vegeta saying they should fuse and go SSJ4 right away), but GT having lower SSJ multipliers is a common take here.

 

[GSM123]

He can't be though. Because Shin is only Base tier and fusion is exponential and based off of top power. So the SSJ fusion boost is way higher than the Base fusion boost.

And what does that have to do with Kibito?

 

[Power Level Guy]

And what does that have to do with Kibito?

Nothing. I'm just saying. I doubt Kibito is all that much weaker than Shin. It's probably a Popo/Kami situation.

 

[Power Level Guy]

The take away from this is either the Super Saiyan multipliers drastically decrease or the strongest form of the fusion is irrelevant to the merger. Why the strongest form of the fusees would factor into a fusions base level is beyond me when they have the same forms. Surely it should scale off the same form.

Because fusion is exponential. If fusion is exponential, it must be based on the top power or you will have numerical inconsistencies.

We have mostly only seen Saiyan fusions, so there's no way to tell whether two Toppo's fusing would rival Base Gogeta or Gogeta Blue, for example. Kibito being piss weak means Kibitoshin can't compared to Gotenks. We also aren't 100% sure of Base Gotenks. SSJ2 has Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta, but we have him at SSJ Goku or FP Cell level.

Saiyans don't get a special fusion bonus, bro. This idea that 2 Goku Nameks are going to way stronger than 2 Freezas is illogical.

2 SSJ Goku Nameks fusing should be relatively the same as 2 100% Organic Freeza's fusing.

You still have to use logic with fusion, even if it doesn't appear logical.

So it's definitely strongest form, but idk about exponential. SSJG could be or measure stick but the multiplier is a mystery.

It has to be exponential. We already went over that. Unless you care to explain why Base Gotenks isn't getting a Blue level boost of course. And remember, if it's exponential, it has to be based on top power. Do you not accept this or do I have to break this down?

 

[GSM123]

Saiyans don't get a special fusion bonus, bro.

Saiyans got bonuses on pretty much everything power level related. Transformations are one big bonus.

do I have to break this down?

Yeah, you do. Base Gotenks isn’t Blue level because neither of the boys are. What does this have to do with exponential?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Saiyans got bonuses on pretty much everything power level related. Transformations are one big bonus

A transformation is not a bonus. It's a weakness. If you need a transformation to catch up to someone's base power, that's a negative. Kid Buu naturally holds his power with no issue. SSJ3 Goku is lucky to be able to maintain the power for 5 minutes. The edge would go to Kid Buu here, not Goku.

Yeah, you do. Base Gotenks isn’t Blue level because neither of the boys are. What does this have to do with exponential?

No, what I'm saying is that Base Gotenks > Hypothetical Blue Boys isn't the case, so we know fusion is exponential.

Do you think Gogeta in the Broly movie and Gotenks are getting the same boost? Is that your argument?

 

[GSM123]

A transformation is not a bonus. It's a weakness. If you need a transformation to catch up to someone's base power, that's a negative. Kid Buu naturally holds his power with no issue. SSJ3 Goku is lucky to be able to maintain the power for 5 minutes. The edge would go to Kid Buu here, not Goku.

Goku shouldn’t even be 1% of Kid Boo, but transforming allows him to catch up. Definitely a bonus.

No, what I'm saying is that Base Gotenks > Hypothetical Blue Boys isn't the case, so we know fusion is exponential.

Do you think Gogeta in the Broly movie and Gotenks are getting the same boost? Is that your argument?

But that only proves fusion in based on strongest p

You mean Gogeta > SSJB vs Gotenks > SSJ Boys? Sure, isn’t that the most consistent?

SSJ Boys 1
Base Gotenks 10

SSJB 1,000,000
Base Gogeta 10,000,000

 

[Power Level Guy]

Goku shouldn’t even be 1% of Kid Boo, but transforming allows him to catch up. Definitely a bonus.

No. It's a crutch. Kid Buu is the natural power. Goku uses a crutch to contend with Buu.

But that only proves fusion in based on strongest p

Do you know what you are saying here? You are saying it's exponential. Don't you see?

If the stronger I get the stronger fusion gets, that means it's exponential.

SSJ Boys 1
Base Gotenks 10

SSJB 1,000,000
Base Gogeta 10,000,000

Agreed, so we've proven it's exponential, right?

 

[GSM123]

Agreed, so we've proven it's exponential, right?

That’s not what exponential is, but I’m with you anyway.

Exponential would be like if the gap between fusion and fusee increased more than the power. Like if in my example Base Gogeta were 100,000,000 instead of 10,000,000.

 

[Power Level Guy]

That’s not what exponential is, but I’m with you anyway.

It's an exponentially increasing fusion multiplier. Happy?

Exponential would be like if the gap between fusion and fusee increased more than the power. Like if in my example Base Gogeta were 100,000,000 instead of 10,000,000.

No, we are clearly referring to the fusion boost. The fusion boost is clearly exponentially growing. We aren't talking about the relation of Base to Top Power. That's a different topic. For Base Fusion to be continuously being 10x the top power despite more and more transformations, it must be because of an exponential fusion multiplier. There's no other way.

The rapidly improving fusion boost just so happens to always end up stronger than the fuser's top power. That seems to be a mere coincidence.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

To touch up on this idea...

So yes, Base Fusion > Top Power Fuser, but this common occurrence has to be purely coincidental based on the exponential top power fusion multiplier. Why? Because any other explanation leads to irrationality. If we are giving bonuses out for having transformations, the entire fusion principles breakdown as I've mentioned before. A transformations is a weaker way to access power. If you can reach your top power in your base state, that is the ideal. The need to transform is not the proper way of doing things, but it's like overclocking your CPU or whatever.

So we can't just willy nilly people for having transformations.

And this is also why we aren't held to improving base to top transformation ratio.

So let's say Base Vegetto is 3x SSJ3 Goku, right? Well this ratio would remain intact with the same transformations.

So for instance, BoG Vegetto is probably an absolute monster. It's very likely that Goku and Vegeta were way behind Gohan previously and now they are ahead. So that means obviously Vegetto has gotten much stronger as well.

So with much a much stronger fusion base, we might expect BoG Base Vegetto to be say 5-10x SSJ3 Goku.

Now much later we have Vegetto in the Zamasu Saga. This Base Vegetto can be 3x SSJB Goku without messing with anything, because it's a fairer comparison to show how much stronger Base Vegetto is over SSJ3 Goku at this time to represent how much the exponential fusion multiplier has worked.

So now Base Vegetto may be 1,000x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. See how it works?

Base Vegetto Power

Buu Saga- 3x SSJ3 Goku
BoG - 10x SSJ3 Goku
Zamasu- 1,000x SSJ3 Goku

This makes sense don't it? It just came to me to flesh this out a bit more. This is the only working theory for fusions imo.

And we even see this with Gotenks.


Pre Rosat Base Gotenks is 1.5x SSJ Kids
Post Rosat is 2x SSJ Kids

So then if we took someone like SSJ Gohan and had him and Dabura fuse, their Base fusion would be something like 5x their SSJ power.

See how it escalates quickly? And is truly exponential?

 

[GSM123]

I see. The boost exponential and that coincidentally makes base fusion > strongest form solo.

Keeping a consistent rate is the ideal. If base Vegetto is 2x SSJ3 he’s also 2x Blue in Super. But what about Blue Kaioken and SSJBE?

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

It doesn’t necessarily have to be consistent. You have room to play. But yeah the same general range is ideal.

2-5x is good, at least what we’ve seen so far. But fusion has given us much more leeway than I previously thought.

I might get back with the mathematicians on Discord and have them write me up an exponential formula that matches up with my fusion numbers. I was almost there before but got confused. I’d have to do DBS numbers to really have it good though and I don’t know if I can manage that.

 

[ahill1]

What's being discussed right now? Sum it up, please.