Can the BOZ Tenshinhan-FP Raditz gaps fit into the 250-1,250 range?

Hector

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The gaps we need to fit in are:

BOZ Tenshinhan < Mr Popo << Kami << 23rd TB Piccolo (post Goku's beating) << 23rd TB Piccolo (post area attack) << 23rd TB Piccolo (post arm regeneration) < 23rd TB Piccolo (panting) < 23rd TB Piccolo (full power) = 23rd TB Goku << 23rd TB Goku (post zenkai) << BOZ Goku << Raditz (initial) < Raditz (serious) < Raditz (full power)
 

Power Level Guy

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Hell no. AT was a power level noob and inconsistent as hell with his own story. If he made a power level list anonymously we’d tear it apart.
 

Power Level Guy

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Tien ain’t 250, he’s more like 25 and that’s being generous. Tien is weak sauce level.
 

GSM123

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They literally do fit and that’s an indisputable fact. Half of these levels don’t even exist…
 

Papasmurf

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Is there any actual proof or statements that ascertain that Popo was even above BoZ Ten? All I recall is anime filler and that garbage Daizenshuu level that gives him a PL of 1000.
 

Power Level Guy

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Is there any actual proof or statements that ascertain that Popo was even above BoZ Ten? All I recall is anime filler and that garbage Daizenshuu level that gives him a PL of 1000.

Popo is way above Tien. Around 10x higher.

Mr. Popo was able to dodge an Oozaru Fist from Goku who is most likely on par with Tien.

The guidebook is stupid, Popo should never power up. He's not in training himself, he's training others.
 

Papasmurf

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Do you give that Oozaru fist a 10x amp? I never saw any reason to amp it up so much honestly, the Oozaru appearing doesn't mean it was literally 10x Goku's power or he'd keep spamming that instead of the Super Kamehameha.

Also how the hell is kid Goku on par with BoZ Ten??? Ten said Goku improved in all areas but his speed stayed roughly the same, is why suppressed Goku (weighted) was similar in power to him but considerably slower. BoZ Ten should eat kid Goku for breakfast.
 

Power Level Guy

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Do you give that Oozaru fist a 10x amp?
Yeah, I think we have no choice. The point of the montage is to showcase Oozaru strength. It ain't appearing for no reason.

I never saw any reason to amp it up so much honestly, the Oozaru appearing doesn't mean it was literally 10x Goku's power or he'd keep spamming that instead of the Super Kamehameha.
Remember when he punched a hole through his opponent who was previously the same level? Yeah... That's an insane feat. I'd ask is there any evidence besides the crappy BoZ numbers that suggest it's not a 10x boost?

Also how the hell is kid Goku on par with BoZ Ten???
If Goku got any sort of a zenkai after his fight with King Piccolo, he should be about on par with Tien from 23rd Budokai.

en said Goku improved in all areas but his speed stayed roughly the same, is why suppressed Goku (weighted) was similar in power to him but considerably slower. BoZ Ten should eat kid Goku for breakfast.
I doubt it. I think the Kid Goku who fought Popo is probably equals, and then Oozaru Fist Goku who Popo dodged effortlessly, punches a hole through him.
 

Papasmurf

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Yeah, I think we have no choice. The point of the montage is to showcase Oozaru strength. It ain't appearing for no reason.
It just represents that Goku's "real potential" has awakened. Those types of images appearing aren't magically indicative that Goku somehow is channeling the power of a transformation that physically requires him to have biological alterations. Unless Yamcha is secretly part wolf and channeling that power, or Goku in M13/GT is part dragon lmao.

Toriyama also physically created a separate transformation that does cause biological changes in the Broly movie, which was explicitly stated to channel the Oozaru's power in human form. Not the case here. And I'm pretty sure Toriyama remembered the Oozaru fist when we literally see it in the start of the BoG movie and the Broly movie flashes back to it.

In fact, AT even speculated that Daimao's genes surfacing through Piccolo's genes was perhaps the reason why Cell taking over the world and announcing his plans on TV were so similar to Daimao's way of going about things. And that was modern Toriyama. No way he forgot the Oozaru punch.
Remember when he punched a hole through his opponent who was previously the same level? Yeah... That's an insane feat. I'd ask is there any evidence besides the crappy BoZ numbers that suggest it's not a 10x boost?
Because Goku's trump card was the Super Kamehameha in the 23rd. That caps how much we can amplify the Oozaru fist.
If Goku got any sort of a zenkai after his fight with King Piccolo, he should be about on par with Tien from 23rd Budokai.


I doubt it. I think the Kid Goku who fought Popo is probably equals, and then Oozaru Fist Goku who Popo dodged effortlessly, punches a hole through him.
That's conjecture. If Ten was equal to his post Daimao kid self, Goku should have stated that without Kami's training he would be in real trouble. I also believe Ten and everyone else got stronger after the 23rd except maybe Yajirobe.
 

Power Level Guy

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It just represents that Goku's "real potential" has awakened. Those types of images appearing aren't magically indicative that Goku somehow is channeling the power of a transformation that physically requires him to have biological alterations. Unless Yamcha is secretly part wolf and channeling that power, or Goku in M13/GT is part dragon lmao.
What is his real potential? I think his true power is his Oozaru power. That's his real power.

Are you saying you don't think Goku has the power of a SSJ God when he attacks Whis in the RoF Manga?

Toriyama also physically created a separate transformation that does cause biological changes in the Broly movie, which was explicitly stated to channel the Oozaru's power in human form. Not the case here. And I'm pretty sure Toriyama remembered the Oozaru fist when we literally see it in the start of the BoG movie and the Broly movie flashes back to it.
I think it's the same thing, just channeled in different ways.

No way he forgot the Oozaru punch.
Why would he have to forget about it to do the Broly thing?

Because Goku's trump card was the Super Kamehameha in the 23rd. That caps how much we can amplify the Oozaru fist.
He no longer has access to his tail and thus, cannot access his full potential anymore.

That's conjecture. If Ten was equal to his post Daimao kid self, Goku should have stated that without Kami's training he would be in real trouble. I also believe Ten and everyone else got stronger after the 23rd except maybe Yajirobe.
Saiyans get stronger after they fight. Nothing wrong with giving Goku a decent zenkai here.
 

Papasmurf

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Why would he have to forget about it to do the Broly thing?
Because that ability being exclusive to Broly precludes Goku from having the same ability.
He no longer has access to his tail and thus, cannot access his full potential anymore.
Broly didn't need a tail to access it, nor did Raditz say anything beyond "No wonder you blended in with the Earthlings" when he found out Goku's tail got cut off. Goku also should make note of losing such an important ability after losing his tail if that were the case. Kami's practically the closest thing to an omniscient entity in part 1 DB, why wouldn't he make note of Goku losing such an important ability after he himself cut Goku's tail off?
Saiyans get stronger after they fight. Nothing wrong with giving Goku a decent zenkai here.
I've got no problem with Goku getting stronger post Daimao. I just don't think it allowed him to surpass 23rd Tenshinhan let alone BoZ Tenshinhan. I think the pattern goes that 23rd Tenshinhan > kid Goku just like how 22nd Tenshinhan was above RRA arc Goku. But Goku's Kami training has allowed him to go leaps and bounds above that.
 

Power Level Guy

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Because that ability being exclusive to Broly precludes Goku from having the same ability.
Broly seems to be able to maintain it. I think Goku can only gear up for it for one big punch. It's definitely not the same ability. Broly can throws thousands of punches, Goku can only throw one.

Broly didn't need a tail to access it, nor did Raditz say anything beyond "No wonder you blended in with the Earthlings" when he found out Goku's tail got cut off. Goku also should make note of losing such an important ability after losing his tail if that were the case.
It wasn't important enough for him to keep the tail. His Oozaru transformation was too dangerous.

I've got no problem with Goku getting stronger post Daimao. I just don't think it allowed him to surpass 23rd Tenshinhan let alone BoZ Tenshinhan.
I never said all that. I said he's probably around as strong as 23rd Tien. That's it. A marginal increase.

I think the pattern goes that 23rd Tenshinhan > kid Goku just like how 22nd Tenshinhan was above RRA arc Goku. But Goku's Kami training has allowed him to go leaps and bounds above that.
Well of course. I have Kami, excuse me, POPO's training to allow Goku to make perhaps a 100x increase or something.


Kid Goku 4.5
~ Oozaru Fist 45

Mr. Popo 50

Kami 75

Goku/Piccolo 500

Or something like that.
 

Papasmurf

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Broly seems to be able to maintain it. I think Goku can only gear up for it for one big punch. It's definitely not the same ability. Broly can throws thousands of punches, Goku can only throw one.
I think you're looking too much into the Oozaru montage. Goku just channeled "everything he had" into the Oozaru fist and that apparition showed up, it also showed up when Goku was just getting the Choshinsui power up itself, and we know Goku didn't just drop back down to his pre Choshinsui power when the tail was cut off. All it does is represent Goku's true potential no differently than how the anime reused that montage to show his SSJ3 was the limits of Goku's power in the anime. SSJ3 has no Oozaru application even in the anime (Daima SSJ4 might though. I think it might be drawing on the power of Golden Oozaru due to the presence of a tail and its bestial design, but that's another topic altogether)
It wasn't important enough for him to keep the tail. His Oozaru transformation was too dangerous.
In which case it'd be smarter to just tell Goku to not look at the full moon. That's what Grandpa Gohan did in fact, and Goku only disobeyed him because he was a baby at the time and was taking a piss or whatever. Losing a 10x amp just prior to fighting the greatest threat the Earth has ever seen just seems like such a stupid move that I don't think someone as smart as Kami would even consider it.
I never said all that. I said he's probably around as strong as 23rd Tien. That's it. A marginal increase.
I think if AT really thought post Daimao Goku was on par with 23rd Ten he'd have made note of it. He made sure to make note of Daimao's power itself repeatedly when Majunior said he'd leveled up many times since the last fight after all, and a similar benchmark was used in the Boo arc with Goku and Vegeta being marginally above SSJ2 CG Gohan and Dabura being on par with Cell (whichever form that was).
Well of course. I have Kami, excuse me, POPO's training to allow Goku to make perhaps a 100x increase or something.
Question: How do you justify Ten's jump being far higher than Goku's from Popo's training? Not saying you're wrong with the 100x scale, just curious how you would justify the humans surpassing Raditz with less training time than Goku had prior to the 23rd.
 

Power Level Guy

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I think you're looking too much into the Oozaru montage. Goku just channeled "everything he had" into the Oozaru fist and that apparition showed up
It's a simple face value deduction. I see Oozaru I think Oozaru strength. I see SSJ God, I think SSJ God strength.

it also showed up when Goku was just getting the Choshinsui power up itself
Yep, I think that montage signifies a 10x boost in strength as well. Goku realizing his "true strength" as Korin says.

All it does is represent Goku's true potential
That is how I view it. Goku realizing his true strength (Oozaru)

In which case it'd be smarter to just tell Goku to not look at the full moon. That's what Grandpa Gohan did in fact,
He died for that mistake.

Losing a 10x amp just prior to fighting the greatest threat the Earth has ever seen just seems like such a stupid move that I don't think someone as smart as Kami would even consider it.
Kami always planned to handle it himself and had Goku as a backup.

I think if AT really thought post Daimao Goku was on par with 23rd Ten he'd have made note of it.
Post-KP Goku would have come first, Tien would be the latter. Goku getting a marginal increase is appropriate considering Krillen stating how Saiyans improve after battle.

A lot of these issues are more matters of preference, both sides are plausible.

Question: How do you justify Ten's jump being far higher than Goku's from Popo's training?
Plot

Not saying you're wrong with the 100x scale, just curious how you would justify the humans surpassing Raditz with less training time than Goku had prior to the 23rd.
Wait until you find out about how much better Piccolo did with King Kai's training than Goku. Lol

This stuff is all plot.
 

Papasmurf

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It's a simple face value deduction. I see Oozaru I think Oozaru strength. I see SSJ God, I think SSJ God strength.


Yep, I think that montage signifies a 10x boost in strength as well. Goku realizing his "true strength" as Korin says.


That is how I view it. Goku realizing his true strength (Oozaru)
And as I said, there are other instances where apparitions appear where some hidden power isn't being tapped into. Goku wasn't physically with Gohan or in spirit when he fired the Father-Son Kamehameha for example, his spirit was physically with Kaio. And Goku's Ki physically hadn't transferred to Gohan, for if he did, his Ki wouldn't have been noted to be far weaker than SPC's. Goku's Oozaru montage is just that - symbolism.
He died for that mistake.


Kami always planned to handle it himself and had Goku as a backup.

Why weaken your best card? Kami only planned to handle Piccolo through the Mafuba by the way, and he had to have known that it could fail when it has failed once already. Furthermore, AT would be the type to note that a helpful ability was already lost - he did so with how a non-afterlife SSJ3 no longer has the advantage of having no Ki drain for example, he emphasized Gohan losing his former power repeatedly. Even as recently as Broly and Super Hero he made sure to make note of Goku no longer having access to UI after the ToP, and Goten and Trunks no longer remembering how to fuse properly. This whole theory is just grasping at straws imo.

Not to mention, Kami removed Goku's tail to restore the moon. If he knew it would weaken him to that extent, he could have just held off on restoring the moon until after Piccolo had been defeated.
Post-KP Goku would have come first, Tien would be the latter. Goku getting a marginal increase is appropriate considering Krillen stating how Saiyans improve after battle.

A lot of these issues are more matters of preference, both sides are plausible.
I think Tenshinhan being an opponent weighted Goku can't beat (despite getting stronger in the 3 years) loses its luster completely if his kid self was already on that level. That short exchange was to show that Goku had improved since post-Daimao, weights or no weights. Ten was just on par with weighted Goku in power and faster.
Plot


Wait until you find out about how much better Piccolo did with King Kai's training than Goku. Lol

This stuff is all plot.
Agreed, but we have to find ways to explain it. Maybe Kami taking a more active role in the training, plus having more training partners helped the humans gain better increases to their power. Nothing can justify Piccolo's Kaio training gains but I like to slightly justify it saying his weights from when he was on that planet were still holding him back post-Nail, so he must have been training with extra heavy weights :troll
 

Hector

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Popo is way above Tien. Around 10x higher.

Mr. Popo was able to dodge an Oozaru Fist from Goku who is most likely on par with Tien.

The guidebook is stupid, Popo should never power up. He's not in training himself, he's training others.
Did Goku's speed increase by 10x too?
 

Power Level Guy

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Didn't Goku say Oozaru Vegeta's speed remained the same?
I’ve heard the claim but I am not convinced of the argument. I wouldn’t need to see the evidence.

If there’s no specific line I’d say it’s garbage.
 

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