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Hatchiyak and Broly should be rivals with Hatchiyak the stronger of the two. Hatchiyak was said to be "may be even stronger than Broly," similar to Vegeta "may be even stronger than Goku" in the androids saga. Perfect Cell(either normal or Super) should be near equal with Hatchiyak. I think...

Mentality goes a long way. Plus, full power Perfect Cell is a powerup of unknown size, and and the power increase could help tie into the Buu Saga better.

Yes.

Rightful-minded angry SSJ Gohan should surpass Cell. SSJ2 was a bonus.

Which scene exactly?

Cell senses Gohan's power: 孫悟空の言ったこともまんざらハッタリばかりではなかったらしい……… Romanization: Son Gokū no itta koto mo manzara hattari bakari de wa nakattarashii……… Translation: "It seems that what Son Goku said was not all just bluff after all………" だが このわたしに勝てるというのはいささか言いすぎだったようだな...... Romanization: Daga kono...

But you should not expect people to believe you without proof. We are getting side tracked. Your position about Cell's fake ki falls short of adequate substantiation. Maybe you need to dig for more proof in guidebooks or something. Until then I've said my peace.

As far as history books are concerned it would be anecdotal which is a lower form of evidence to the point that it means nothing on a scientific basis. So if I said the Baha Men tour bus broke down at my house, even if my house is plausibly on their route, if there's no evidence to prove they...

You could be mistaken in seeing the boogeyman. That's why proof matters.

Yes.

Guidebooks say Cell could use the barrier technique effectively because he had the infinite energy generator from the other androids. Cell was still reduced after using it but it could just be from the fight overall. Maybe he doesn't get the overall benefit from the infinite energy generator and...

If the boogeyman in question evades all detection then it's not proven to exist. If you claim the boogeyman is there the onus is not on others to disprove the presence of the boogeyman, or to do the work for you to prove the boogeyman is there.

@Power Level Guy Tomorrow.

@Power Level Guy Goku was 5,000. It was Future Trunks who was 5 when meeting Freeza. Your theory is too speculative for me. It's a principle in science that a good theory needs to be falsifiable. When you structure your theory in a way that your theory cannot be falsified by counter-evidence...

That contradicts what we are shown. 16 would say initial Cell > Vegeta if that were the case, and Vegeta would feel that power and know he's outclassed.

I posted on Neo about this. Turns out the anime may suggest Cell beating up Vegeta is not a warmup. It appears there is a subtitle-ism in play. The subtitles don't reflect the dialogue accurately here. The subtitles make it seem like the warmup is still in progress and Vegeta will be defeated...

His self-destruction could be a device rather than his own power. So it wouldn't count as self damage. Vegeta also might be thinking of it as he won't be able to hurt himself because he'd have to make himself weaker but his attacks would also get weaker.

I watched episode 177. There is that one moment when Gohan asks why Goku won't get serious, and Trunks looks surprised, with Vegeta saying he knew it. If anything that could be used to say Warmup Goku = or even > 50% Goku. That would actually nerf the power scale! I mean hey, if the anime is...

Our responses are getting exponentially longer so I'll cut to the meat of what is really in contention, which is mostly just these points. ⬆️ We agree 50% Goku > Warm up Cell(Cell Games) = Warm up Goku(Cell Games). We agree 50% Goku > Super Vegeta. Beyond this the issue lies with what is and...

I would just focus on Krillin's statement as what would suggest Goku surpasses Grade 3 Trunks, as Goku's earlier statement is focused on the ambiguity of Cell's power. Even taking that position, Cell commenting about drawing out more power doesn't tell us how much more it will be, just that...