100% Freeza

[GSM123]

Why his stamina was so ? Is he just unable to maintain his full power or the Spirit Bomb screwed him?

 

[SSJ2]

I think it would normally be somewhat better, but he did take a lot if damage throughout the fight, namely the Genki Dama. I think the same would have happened to Shello if he didn't eat the senzu bean that Goku gave him. However it would still be bad even at 100% stamina.. Bulking up like the grade forms has shown to be too strenuous to be viable.

 

[Keedounan]

I would guess that this is because he didn't train and wasn't used to fight an opponent his level. Kinda like how someone who isn't used to run for an extended amount of time would tire out fast at their full speed.

 

[GSM123]

I always thought it was the Spirit Bomb that injured him too much and he forced his body to bulk up to access to a power up similiar to his 100%.

The thing is, Goku does tell Freeza near the end of the fight he should polish his stamina to face him again, implying it was a natural issue.

 

[freezamite]

Why his stamina was so ? Is he just unable to maintain his full power or the Spirit Bomb screwed him?

It was the first time in his life that he used all his power to fight, so it's only logical that his stamina would be trash. Him having to force his body is also a sign of this (in FnF his body can draw all his power without having to force it).
The Spirit Bomb affected his power, not his stamina which is always the same.

 

[GSM123]

I think the stamina issue was created because of the Spirit Bomb. He seemed awfuly confident on killin Goku on earth. I don't think he'd be so sure of his win if he can't even maintain his power.

 

[Jeff Styles]

Because of his stamina and the damage he took throughout the fight.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think the stamina issue was created because of the Spirit Bomb. He seemed awfuly confident on killin Goku on earth. I don't think he'd be so sure of his win if he can't even maintain his power.

Still, Goku didn't specifically point out the Genki-Dama as the catalyst of his stamina loss, suggesting it wasn't something worth noting and likely not the case. His cyborg enhancements may have also made his 100% form more efficient, plus he had Cold with him as back up if history repeated itself.

Most likely, it was down to him having likely never used 100% to fight an opponent before, given the only person to have seen his true form prior to Namek was his father and we know he never seriously trained in his life.

 

[GSM123]

It seems odd for me the Spirit Bomb was completely useless, with the damage sustained being discarted for the sake of the fight. I'm also unsure if Freeza can kill Goku in less than 5 minutes, even with Cold backing his ass up.

Goku telling Freeza to polish his stamina is a direct implication for Freeza just being unable to use 100% for long, though.

 

[SSJ2]

Didn't Freeza say it almost killed him even?

 

[Jeff Styles]

Didn't Freeza say it almost killed him even?

Spoiler

 

[SSJ2]

Yea, I think that attack would have done lasting damage to his reserves. He looks physically fucked up by it. It wasn't the sole reason why his stamina was ass, of course.

 

[freezamite]

I think the stamina issue was created because of the Spirit Bomb. He seemed awfuly confident on killin Goku on earth. I don't think he'd be so sure of his win if he can't even maintain his power.

Mecha Freezer didn't have any stamina problems as a result of his mechanical implants, that's why he thought he was above.
But Namek Freezer was different, he had never used his 100% before and Goku sees that and points it to him.

Injuries in DB affect one's power, but not his stamina, I can't recall even a single fight in DB where stamina was affected by injuries. Power on the other hand was affected every single time.

It seems odd for me the Spirit Bomb was completely useless, with the damage sustained being discarted for the sake of the fight. I'm also unsure if Freeza can kill Goku in less than 5 minutes, even with Cold backing his ass up.

What? Freezer's damage was never discarted, in fact, Freezer comments on it at least a couple of times. Goku's damage was discarted, but that was because of the rage boost (the same applied to Gohan when he got his rage boosts).

 

[GSM123]

Mecha Freezer didn't have any stamina problems as a result of his mechanical implants, that's why he thought he was above.
But Namek Freezer was different, he had never used his 100% before and Goku sees that and points it to him.

Injuries in DB affect one's power, but not his stamina, I can't recall even a single fight in DB where stamina was affected by injuries. Power on the other hand was affected every single time.

What? Freezer's damage was never discarted, in fact, Freezer comments on it at least a couple of times. Goku's damage was discarted, but that was because of the rage boost (the same applied to Gohan when he got his rage boosts).

It's pointed out multiple times Freeza was at 100%:

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P11.1-3
Context: with 5 minutes (ha!) before Namek explodes
Freeza: “In that case, I’ll show you my 100% power! There’s no way you can defeat me! Prepare yourself!”
Goku: “Why are you using your full power now?...I know: it’s because when you use all of your power, your body itself can’t handle it.”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P1.3
Freeza: “I’ll settle this at full power. It’ll take 1 minute…No, 30 seconds…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”

There's more, but i think that's enough. I'd like to give special attention to the last one. Goku clearly says this is his single chance to face the strongest guy on the universe at full power. What's the point of him saying this if Freeza wasn't at full power? It's clear the injuries both suffered where ignored for the sake of having the two strongest beings on the universe fighting.

Injuries in Dragon Ball doesn't directly affect stamina, it indeed affects the power. The thing is, Freeza forced his body to go 100% even though he couldn't support it, that and his lack of usage of his power is the reason he colapsed in less than five minutes.

 

[freezamite]

There's more, but i think that's enough. I'd like to give special attention to the last one. Goku clearly says this is his single chance to face the strongest guy on the universe at full power. What's the point of him saying this if Freeza wasn't at full power? It's clear the injuries both suffered where ignored for the sake of having the two strongest beings on the universe fighting.

Goku's injuries ARE discarded because of the rage boost that replenished him, and you can see this clearly at chapter 325. In other words, to show that Goku's injuries had been negated, Toriyama did two things:
It gave it a plot-based explanation (rage boost).
It showed it to us with a direct feat (Goku goes back to base at chapter 325, and not only he can walk and fly as if nothing, but he can even dodge one of Freezer's attack. Goku couldn't even walk by himself prior to the rage boost and SSJ transformation, so there's no doubt he was replenished).

But not Freezer. Those sentences you've quoted can also mean that he was at full power because he was using all the power he had left unlike until then, when injuries a part he was still holding back a lot of it. They can be interpreted in both ways, so they can't be a proof just by themselves. On the other hand, Freezer's injuries were never discarded, to the point that at chapter 322 Freezer mentions them again:

Freezer: Uff, uff, I'd better get away from this planet right now... if I'm caught in the explosion, I'll lose even more power...

http://mangafox.la/manga/dragon_ball/v27/c129/10.html

And yes, I understand why the situation may seem more confusing than your average shounen, but it's something Toriyama did a lot. Instead of presenting a simple scenario (in this case, lets neglect the injuries to make a more epic final battle) he presents a scenario that's simple in appearance, but has more depth than it seems.
He did the same with Nappa (he could've had Nappa being much weaker than Goku, but he had Nappa at Goku's level and losing because of other reasons), with the Androids...

If Freezer injuries had been discarded as you say, then Toriyama would've made this obvious like he did it with Goku, but he not only didn't make it obvious but insisted in the fact that Freezer had lost strength instead (even if in a subtle way to not de-hype the fight).

Toriyama didn't want the SSJ (at least at that point in the series) to be as strong as Freezer was (he himself said it in an interview), but he still wanted to give the SSJ an epic victory against him and he accomplished both things (Toriyama was a very competent writer, btw).

Injuries in Dragon Ball doesn't directly affect stamina, it indeed affects the power. The thing is, Freeza forced his body to go 100% even though he couldn't support it, that and his lack of usage of his power is the reason he colapsed in less than five minutes.

Freezer forcing his body meant:
1. Less power than he should have had (bigger muscles mean less speed, which in DB also means less BP).
2. Not much stamina.

But we have dozens and dozens of hurt character using all their power, and as you've said, this never affected their stamina. So Freezer is not an exception if the manga doesn't tell us he is (which the manga never does).

 

[GSM123]

Goku's injuries ARE discarded because of the rage boost that replenished him, and you can see this clearly at chapter 325. In other words, to show that Goku's injuries had been negated, Toriyama did two things:
It gave it a plot-based explanation (rage boost).
It showed it to us with a direct feat (Goku goes back to base at chapter 325, and not only he can walk and fly as if nothing, but he can even dodge one of Freezer's attack. Goku couldn't even walk by himself prior to the rage boost and SSJ transformation, so there's no doubt he was replenished).

But not Freezer. Those sentences you've quoted can also mean that he was at full power because he was using all the power he had left unlike until then, when injuries a part he was still holding back a lot of it. They can be interpreted in both ways, so they can't be a proof just by themselves. On the other hand, Freezer's injuries were never discarded, to the point that at chapter 322 Freezer mentions them again:

Freezer: Uff, uff, I'd better get away from this planet right now... if I'm caught in the explosion, I'll lose even more power...

http://mangafox.la/manga/dragon_ball/v27/c129/10.html

And yes, I understand why the situation may seem more confusing than your average shounen, but it's something Toriyama did a lot. Instead of presenting a simple scenario (in this case, lets neglect the injuries to make a more epic final battle) he presents a scenario that's simple in appearance, but has more depth than it seems.
He did the same with Nappa (he could've had Nappa being much weaker than Goku, but he had Nappa at Goku's level and losing because of other reasons), with the Androids...

If Freezer injuries had been discarded as you say, then Toriyama would've made this obvious like he did it with Goku, but he not only didn't make it obvious but insisted in the fact that Freezer had lost strength instead (even if in a subtle way to not de-hype the fight).

Toriyama didn't want the SSJ (at least at that point in the series) to be as strong as Freezer was (he himself said it in an interview), but he still wanted to give the SSJ an epic victory against him and he accomplished both things (Toriyama was a very competent writer, btw).

To be fair, i think Goku was healed because of Super Saiyan having healing powers, at least on the first time. Rage boosts are generally quick and after a few seconds are gone, and there's no case of one's power being healed because of rage.

Saying Freeza was not injured cripples the premisse of the fight, which was to have the two strongest beings on the universe fight each other at their best. Freeza never makes note of his full power being one limited by his injuries, but his true peak. Goku's quote i posted implies Freeza was at his absolute best.

Also, what interview is that? Because if anything, it's implied on the story istelf Goku already surpassed Freeza, even if by a small margin like his perfomance implies:

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

Freezer forcing his body meant:
1. Less power than he should have had (bigger muscles mean less speed, which in DB also means less BP).
2. Not much stamina.

But we have dozens and dozens of hurt character using all their power, and as you've said, this never affected their stamina. So Freezer is not an exception if the manga doesn't tell us he is (which the manga never does).

Bigger muscles doesn't totally correlate with less speed. SSJ Grade 2 (The form Vegeta used to pummel Cell) bumps the users' speed too. It's never implied Freeza's speed was handicapped, if anything the opposite was implied as he outspeeds Goku on the run for Porunga.

And Battle Power is a measure of Ki, not strength or speed. Vegeta was shocked by Goku's speed, implying he was faster than someone on his level should be:

Vegeta: ...He's fast!

http://mangafox.la/manga/dragon_ball/v19/c030/5.html

Which examples? All the opponents before Freeza had to low control on their ki to do significant power ups without transforming, the following ones had infinite stamina with the exception of Cell, who received a Senzu Beam before having the chance to show his fulll power.

 

[freezamite]

To be fair, i think Goku was healed because of Super Saiyan having healing powers, at least on the first time. Rage boosts are generally quick and after a few seconds are gone, and there's no case of one's power being healed because of rage.

Well, you have Gohan's SSJ2 rage boost that is very similar to this one and lasts longer, or Gohan's rage boost against 2nd form Freezer that lasts him until 4th form Freezer.
I mean, there are fast rage boosts as well (like Gohan vs Raditz or Gohan vs Nappa) but that one of Goku in Namek wouldn't be the longest by any means.

Saying Freeza was not injured cripples the premisse of the fight, which was to have the two strongest beings on the universe fight each other at their best. Freeza never makes note of his full power being one limited by his injuries, but his true peak. Goku's quote i posted implies Freeza was at his absolute best.

But you could also say that Nappa being as strong as Goku crippled the premise of the fight, which would be to introduce Goku and demonstrate how strong he had become...
I mean, the thing is that besides someone injured losing his power being a general rule for any DB fight, you also have those two comments made by Freezer:

Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P10.3, P12.1
Context: after getting hit with the Genki-Dama
Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you!”

This sentence alone means the damage was not neglected, otherwise, it would make no sense. Why mention that you've taken a lot of damage and that "even with it" you'll win if it simply wasn't a factor?

Not only that, but it's mentioned again (no kanzenshuu translation here):
https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-63595/chapter/mrs-chapter-63918

I understand what you mean, and even I would say Toriyama also understood it. He made the final battle as epic as he could considering the scenario he designed and that's why he didn't insist a lot on Freezer's injuries (he didn't insist on Goku being at Nappa's level either, he just gave Nappa a couple of panels to demonstrate it, and what most of the people remember from that fight is the part where Goku obliterates Nappa, which means that it was very well done by Toriyama -he still gave Goku an epic entrance, it's just that it wasn't your typical epic entrance because it had a twist: Goku wasn't stronger than Nappa even if Nappa was the one being beaten to show off Goku's new strength).

Also, what interview is that? Because if anything, it's implied on the story istelf Goku already surpassed Freeza, even if by a small margin like his perfomance implies:

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

Goku wanted to humiliate Freezer so it's only logical that he wouldn't just tell him "hey, well done, I've won but just because of that Genkidama".
He does the same with Ginyu for example. Ginyu guesses Goku's power at 85k and he was mostly right (Goku's power being 90k) but Goku trolls Ginyu and uses the KK to fool him.
He doesn't tell Ginyu "hey you were right but I have that technique of mine that..." nopes, he tells Ginyu "you wanna see my power sucker? Well then there you have it and I can be even stronger".

The interview I'm speaking of is the one where Toriyama states that SSJ Namek Goku wasn't 50 times as strong as his base state, but just 10 times stronger (like a KKx10 in terms of power).

Bigger muscles doesn't totally correlate with less speed. SSJ Grade 2 (The form Vegeta used to pummel Cell) bumps the users' speed too. It's never implied Freeza's speed was handicapped, if anything the opposite was implied as he outspeeds Goku on the run for Porunga.

Yes, you're right, let me explain what I meant:
When comparing 50% Freezer to 100% Freezer, 100% Freezer was faster despite the muscles. That's because the power boost of going from 50% to 100% far outmatched the speed penalty of having bigger muscles.
What I'm saying though, is that if that same Freezer could've gone to 100% without forcing his body, he would've been faster.

In other words, when going from 50% to 100%, his strength, damage resistance and ki firepower all multiplied by two. But his speed, being handicapped by the bigger muscle mass, instead of doubling, just went higher than it was, but not as high.

And Battle Power is a measure of Ki, not strength or speed. Vegeta was shocked by Goku's speed, implying he was faster than someone on his level should be:

Vegeta: ...He's fast!

http://mangafox.la/manga/dragon_ball/v19/c030/5.html

Nope, it's different, BP takes speed into account. You have to think that this Vegeta was not looking at the scoutter number, that he himself understood was useless.
But not only we have evidences of BP increasing with speed (Goku and Piccolo's BP increases when they take their weighted clothes to fight Radirz), Vegeta also mentions it when fighting Kiwi:
https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-63595/chapter/mrs-chapter-63844

BP != ki sensing, it's a more accurate measure of one's fighting capabilities. In other words, Trunks SSJ grade 3 wouldn't fool a scoutter (if there were a scoutter able to measure it) and his BP wouldn't increase because he just traded strength for speed (it could even diminish Trunk's BP considering Trunks was a worse fighter as grade 3 than he was as a grade 2).

Which examples? All the opponents before Freeza had to low control on their ki to do significant power ups without transforming, the following ones had infinite stamina with the exception of Cell, who received a Senzu Beam before having the chance to show his fulll power.

Well, precisely because they couldn't hide their Kis, that meant that they were always at 100% of their power.

 

[Tapion]

Freezer forcing his body meant:
1. Less power than he should have had (bigger muscles mean less speed, which in DB also means less BP).

I'd like some data on your claims here.

 

[GSM123]

I'd like some data on your claims here.

What are your thoughts on the OP, Tapion? Did Freeza's power drop because of the Spirit Bomb injuries, because of his lack of training or both?

 

[Tapion]

I think Freeza's power dropped due to the Spirit Bomb, but went back to its maxim after he began using all of his power.