100% Freeza

[SSJ2]

When the fuck was that?

Just after the third wish was used on the Namekian Dragon Balls.

?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

After everyone got moved to Earth.

 

[SSJ2]

Boys, I understand you monsters know what the fuck that means, but when in the fight is that? Fuck I don't even remember if Freeza was 100% then.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Spoiler

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Boys, I understand you monsters know what the fuck that means, but when in the fight is that? Fuck I don't even remember if Freeza was 100% then.

The stages of the fight go like this:
- 100% Freeza wails on a stalling Goku and pushes him into the Ocean
- Porunga is revived and everyone is wished to Earth.
- Galu makes the statement

I'd assume Freeza was still at 100% since Goku seemed to make no note of his dropping power until halfway into the next chapter and the two seemed dead even during the last page of chapter 324 and the first 4-5 pages of 325 before Galu starts tooling him, suggesting his drop in power was a sudden drop rather than a gradual decline. The fact he even made this statement even suggests Freeza was still at 100% at this point.

 

[SSJ2]

Well done. You've both passed this test.

 

[ahill1]

Boys, I understand you monsters know what the fuck that means, but when in the fight is that? Fuck I don't even remember if Freeza was 100% then.

The stages of the fight go like this:
- 100% Freeza wails on a stalling Goku and pushes him into the Ocean
- Porunga is revived and everyone is wished to Earth.
- Galu makes the statement

I'd assume Freeza was still at 100% since Goku seemed to make no note of his dropping power until halfway into the next chapter and the two seemed dead even during the last page of chapter 324 and the first 4-5 pages of 325 before Galu starts tooling him, suggesting his drop in power was a sudden drop rather than a gradual decline. The fact he even made this statement even suggests Freeza was still at 100% at this point.

Freeza stated Goku had been buying time so the others could get off the planet, and even though Goku kind of denied it stating he is about to finish off Freeza, him thinking to himself right after about them getting off the planet means what Freeza said was accurate. What do you think the "buying time" means? Goku not going all out? Right after that we have the clash between the KMHMH and Freeza's shield iirc, to which at least in that moment Goku yelled "Die, Freeza!!".

In their hand to hand combat, we have firstly some panels of them apparently fighting completely evenly, with both knocking out each other to same effects and then in the next chapter Goku starts to kind of dominate the battle, although Freeza still gets some shots in, but it doesn't affect Goku nearly as much, even moreso when Freeza is crippled by a regular jab. Doesn't it imply Freeza's stamina had been already falling on that chapter even before the moment Goku outed that considering both fighters seemed fairly even beforehand?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The "Die, Freeza" during the KMHMH makes it seem like he wanted to end him there. However, based on the fact that he was still waiting for the moment where he could fight Freeza comfortably, I'd say it was just something he yelled out in the moment. I find it hard to believe he was okay with killing Freeza there and yet okay with not doing such after Freeza gloated about blowing Krillin to pieces, and trying to attack Goku from behind. Goku gave Freeza way too many chances for me to believe he simply changed his mind in the midst of a few mins.

 

[freezamite]

Freezer forcing his body meant:
1. Less power than he should have had (bigger muscles mean less speed, which in DB also means less BP).

I'd like some data on your claims here.

Well, you have a pretty clear example of this when Goku and Piccolo take off their weigthed clothes. They automatically go from 300+ to 400+ units of strength, a brutal increment in DB terms just by increasing their speed.

I agree with this sir. I think Freeza's power dropped after the Genki Dama, but his 100% had kind of a vitalizing effect, much like the SSJ. Granted that Freeza later stated he'd lose "even more" power after the Genki-Dama, but he could have already lost a bit of power compared to when he began using his 100% bulky form, but it wasn't so significant to the point of Goku calling out the fight.

The SSJ has never had any vitalising effect, it was the rage boost that triggered the SSJ that had it (just like Gohan with his rage boosts -we have two of them where he recovers any lost strength with Vegeta in the earth and Cell-).

Furthermore, there are some unavoidable incoherences with this interpretation:
1. Never before a simple power up resulted in healing one's injures, and it's not implied for Freezer here that this was the case. Yes, he talks about using 100% of his power, but as I have already explained, that doesn't imply being healed anywhere.

2. Cell, an improved clone of Freezer (in other words, anything Freeza was able to do, Cell could do it as well) never had this ability. In fact, despite fighting with Goku while still reserving part of his strength, Goku had to give him a senzu bean so he could recover.
If Cell had to eat a senzu, why would Freezer be any different?

3. Goku had to explain to Freezer that he quit because of Freezer's power diminishing, and even if Freezer was aware that he had to force his body, it still caught him off guard that his stamina was so low (chapter 325, Freezer is in disbelieve when Goku tells him about his stamina problems).
In other words, being injured and losing power is something Freezer was aware off (in fact, the sentence is "If I'm caught in the explosion I'll lose even more power", in other words, it's the explosion what worries him and not the stamina he was losing -which he probably didn't fully realise-. And the Genkidama surely was a heck of an explosion).

I'd assume Freeza was still at 100% since Goku seemed to make no note of his dropping power until halfway into the next chapter and the two seemed dead even during the last page of chapter 324 and the first 4-5 pages of 325 before Galu starts tooling him, suggesting his drop in power was a sudden drop rather than a gradual decline. The fact he even made this statement even suggests Freeza was still at 100% at this point.

Freezer's power diminished gradually since he reached his peak of power usage (as it's explained in the manga). The thing is, attacks like the supernova surely had their impact on Goku, so that's why the difference in stamina took that long to be decisive.

Another thing I would like to point is that Freezer was at his 100% the whole time since he powered up and until Namek exploded, in other words, tired Freezer is still using 100% of his power, that's why he's at his 100% inflated form.
Even kienzaned Freezer was 100% Freezer, it's just that it was a very low 100% due how fatally injured he was.

 

[Tapion]

Well, you have a pretty clear example of this when Goku and Piccolo take off their weigthed clothes. They automatically go from 300+ to 400+ units of strength, a brutal increment in DB terms just by increasing their speed

I asked for data on the always. Cell yelled "How about we go all-out, in speed at least?". He increased his speed, but not his power. Recoome also increased his speed when he fought 30k Vegeta and didn't increase his power along with it.

 

[freezamite]

Well, you have a pretty clear example of this when Goku and Piccolo take off their weigthed clothes. They automatically go from 300+ to 400+ units of strength, a brutal increment in DB terms just by increasing their speed

I asked for data on the always. Cell yelled "How about we go all-out, in speed at least?". He increased his speed, but not his power. Recoome also increased his speed when he fought 30k Vegeta and didn't increase his power along with it.

I think we are talking about different things here. In real life, you can run fast or run slowly. In DB, you can run fast or run slowly AND you can increase your speed (or diminish it) through powering up.

What Reecoome and Cell do, is to focus on speed, in other words, what a regular human being would do if in a regular fight he decided to suddenly increase the rythm a notch.

What I'm saying is that in the BP number of a scoutter, speed is always reflected.
And what's also a constant is that the bigger the muscle mass, the less speed the form has compared to what it should if that same power was attained with the regular muscle mass (Goku explains it very well when analysing why SSJ Grade 3 was a bad idea).

In Freezer's case, he forced his muscles so his speed took a hit. It's just that the increase in power (from 50% to 100%) more than made up for it.

 

[GSM123]

I don't think Goku was stalling. He was really looking forward to fighting Freeza and seemed to be putting all his efforts on the fight. I mean, he fires a Kamehameha screaming "Die Freeza!" and during the struggle he looks like he's about to shit a fucking wall.

 

[ahill1]

The SSJ has never had any vitalising effect, it was the rage boost that triggered the SSJ that had it (just like Gohan with his rage boosts -we have two of them where he recovers any lost strength with Vegeta in the earth and Cell-).

Okay, be it the rage boost then. I just said SSJ because that's what Goku turned to be and since the transformation was triggered by the rage boost, it's simple to say "the ssj 'healed' Goku up". But ok.

1. Never before a simple power up resulted in healing one's injures

Never happening before doesn't mean it will NEVER happen. You can't say that just because something has never happened before then it will never happen or show up in a future moment. Also, I don't think I said exactly "healing his injuries"... Freeza still had his injuries and was restrained somewhat by that, I just think that his chi output was that of his 100%.

Also, regarding your "never a simple power up resulted in healing one's injuries", can you point me out then when has a character said he'd use 100% of his powers but it turned out he was just using a fraction of his powers instead? I don't think there's any example of such, besides Freeza that you will probably cite up as an example. If you think the "has never happened before" is enough to invalidate the "the power up didn't 'heal' Freeza up", then I can ask a similar question to you, right?

2. Cell, an improved clone of Freezer (in other words, anything Freeza was able to do, Cell could do it as well) never had this ability. In fact, despite fighting with Goku while still reserving part of his strength, Goku had to give him a senzu bean so he could recover.
If Cell had to eat a senzu, why would Freezer be any different?

Goku wasn't sure about Cell's power up though. I think that maybe if you are too close to your FP, then the injuries you receive may end up affecting your true power. Cell stated Goku was somewhat close to him, yet we know Cell did lose a lot of power when fighting Goku, and YET Cell was confident enough to defeat Goku if he took another senzu and was back at 100%. So his power up would be still significant enough besides the injuries and may very well have put him back at his true 100%. Goku maybe wasn't sure how Cell's damage would affect his full power, hence why he wanted both fighters to be at 100%... moreover, he was pretty confident in Gohan's abilities with the rage boost, so giving Cell a senzu wouldn't have mattered much.

I think maybe the power up may end up having a healing effect if the fighter wasn't too close to his 100% and if the damage dealt wasn't too big.

But even if that doesn't work, I don't think Cell's power up not vitalizing him is enough to say it hasn't happened with Freeza. Sure, Cell's has Freeza cells, can breathe in the space, can be pretty evil, but does it mean even the power up gotta have more or less the same kind of effect?

 

[freezamite]

Okay, be it the rage boost then. I just said SSJ because that's what Goku turned to be and since the transformation was triggered by the rage boost, it's simple to say "the ssj 'healed' Goku up". But ok.

Well, the difference is pretty big narratively speaking. A rage boost was something known and defined, something the series had already introduced and that would still be used in future fights.
The "healing SSJ transformation" would've been a bad excuse, because it's something we will never see ever again (I wouldn't have a problem with it if from that point in the series onward there had been multiple occasions of Goku healing himself just by turning into a SSJ).

Never happening before doesn't mean it will NEVER happen. You can't say that just because something has never happened before then it will never happen or show up in a future moment. Also, I don't think I said exactly "healing his injuries"... Freeza still had his injuries and was restrained somewhat by that, I just think that his chi output was that of his 100%.

Yeah, it doesn't mean it will NEVER happen, but since it's going against the norm you have to proof in an indisputable way that this was the case.
The internal rule in DB is clearly that when you're injured, you lose strength (and the more injured you're, the more strength you lose). There are exceptions to that rule (every character with unlimited stamina), and those exceptions are exceptions precisely because the manga tells us they're different from the norm.

Also, regarding your "never a simple power up resulted in healing one's injuries", can you point me out then when has a character said he'd use 100% of his powers but it turned out he was just using a fraction of his powers instead? I don't think there's any example of such, besides Freeza that you will probably cite up as an example. If you think the "has never happened before" is enough to invalidate the "the power up didn't 'heal' Freeza up", then I can ask a similar question to you, right?

We have multiple cases that are very similar to Freezer's even if they don't speak in percentages.

For example, you have Raditz being a nearly identical case. Raditz can't hide his ki, but he was playing with Goku and Piccolo the whole time (he could've killed them in 1 hit if he wanted). Then enraged Gohan showed up, hurt him badly, and when Raditz tried to fight seriously for the first time (when Goku was immobilising him) he had already lost a ton of strength.

You also have 2nd round Zarbon vs Vegeta. Zarbon was taking Vegeta lightly and Vegeta took advantage of that to hurt him and weaken him before he was able to fight with all his strength. Once he tried, it was too late for him.

Another clear example is Cell. Yes, he doesn't say "50%" or "70%" but we know for sure he wasn't fighting with all his power, and we also know for sure that he had to eat a senzu in order to do so, which already means that if it wasn't for that senzu he wouldn't have had the strength he showed.

Finally, I can also think of SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Bu. Goku fought Kid Bu without taking into account that the SSJ3 form was too much for his body now that he was alive, and when he wanted to end the fight with all his strength it turned out that his body wouldn't allow him to do it.

Now, we have other less obvious examples like SSJ Vegeta vs A18 in which the first one to go serious is 18 and Vegeta took some damage while still not fighting at 100% of his strength (even if Vegeta wasn't implied to have lost a lot of strength before going 100%, he surely lost a bit).

Of course, a character not being able to show all his strength before it's defeated is not the common rule in a shounen for obvious reasons, but we've had multiple examples in the series where it has happened or it was going to happen until something prevented it (like Goku giving Cell a senzu bean).

Goku wasn't sure about Cell's power up though. I think that maybe if you are too close to your FP, then the injuries you receive may end up affecting your true power. Cell stated Goku was somewhat close to him, yet we know Cell did lose a lot of power when fighting Goku, and YET Cell was confident enough to defeat Goku if he took another senzu and was back at 100%. So his power up would be still significant enough besides the injuries and may very well have put him back at his true 100%. Goku maybe wasn't sure how Cell's damage would affect his full power, hence why he wanted both fighters to be at 100%... moreover, he was pretty confident in Gohan's abilities with the rage boost, so giving Cell a senzu wouldn't have mattered much.

I don't really see the point of this paragraph. I mean, yeah Goku didn't know if Cell was fighting with all he got or if he had some energies in reserve (like it was the case) which is something that has happened since always (Goku didn't know if Freezer was at 50% or not either), and yes, he was confident in Gohan overpowering Cell even if he was healed and all of this is fine but I don't see how it relates to the fact that Cell was injured, that he lost strength and that Goku knew this and gave him a senzu.

I mean, Goku doesn't need to know if Cell had been fighting with all his strength or not to know that Cell has lost strength because of his injuries. It's completely unrelated.

In reality it's very easy. What Goku knew for sure is that, whatever power Cell would have, it diminished because of his injuries, and he wanted to give him a fair fight so that's what he did.

I think maybe the power up may end up having a healing effect if the fighter wasn't too close to his 100% and if the damage dealt wasn't too big.

Can you bake this with a concrete example? I mean, besides the Freezer fight, do you have any other example of a character powering up and healing himself in the process (and of course, a character without healing abilities like Bu)?
I mean, if you think this is the case, you surely have some examples from the manga where this can be clearly seen, don't you?

But even if that doesn't work, I don't think Cell's power up not vitalizing him is enough to say it hasn't happened with Freeza. Sure, Cell's has Freeza cells, can breathe in the space, can be pretty evil, but does it mean even the power up gotta have more or less the same kind of effect?

Well, yeah, except for the fact that it was never implied that Cell lacked any ability of the ones he was made off, and no one expected him to heal by himself (not even Goku, the one that saw Freezer powering up to 100%).

So, to sum it up, we could have a one in a lifetime feat of a character being healed just by powering up that was also an ability exclusive to him and that it was never mentioned anywhere (not even him mentioned it, and to make things worse, the few sentences we have of that character point towards the opposite direction precisely) and that not even an improved clone of said character had and that to make things worse no one was even surprised that he lacked it.
Or we could have what we've always had, a character losing strength with his injuries, which is what that character says it happened and it's also the easiest explanation without creating conflicts with characters like Cell.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

ahill, what are your thoughts about Herms' opinion on Piccolo's line?

Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”

Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.

You could just follow the train of thought that Freeza was at 100% of his power in his current condition rather than his utmost maximum.

So you'd end up with something like, Theoretical 100% Freeza>100% Freeza displayed

 

[freezamite]

ahill, what are your thoughts about Herms' opinion on Piccolo's line?

Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”

Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.

You could just follow the train of thought that Freeza was at 100% of his power in his current condition rather than his utmost maximum.

So you'd end up with something like, Theoretical 100% Freeza>100% Freeza displayed

Well, I know you're not answering to me but thank you for providing me another example of someone that couldn't fight at his maximum strength even if he tried to do so.
And... does this mean that what I've been saying since I registered here... has been finally understood? Because... it's precisely THAT.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

No problem. And yeah, I understand it now.

 

[GSM123]

I don't know about that, EV. Goku is excited about fighting Freeza at his best. Why be so excited if it's only a weakened full power? Also, Golu barely outmatched Freeza on their fight but claims he's the stronger of the two. If Freeza was heavily weakened, he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan Goku by a long shot.

I also think Sick Goku was close to full power so

 

[Evil Vegeta]

There's honestly a few ways you can look at things. I'll admit that it'd be underwhelming as a final battle if Freeza wasn't utilizing his highest power, but the "before I lose even more power" does imply that his power did take a hit at some point. How much is up in the air.

 

[ahill1]

ahill, what are your thoughts about Herms' opinion on Piccolo's line?

Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”

Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.

You could just follow the train of thought that Freeza was at 100% of his power in his current condition rather than his utmost maximum.

So you'd end up with something like, Theoretical 100% Freeza>100% Freeza displayed

That's an interesting question. I'll get back at this later.

I remember RandomGuy96 used to make some good points about Freeza being at 100% (as strong as ever) when fighting Goku. Wish I could find it.