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Captain Cadaver said:Just after the third wish was used on the Namekian Dragon Balls.SSJ2 said:When the fuck was that?
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Captain Cadaver said:Just after the third wish was used on the Namekian Dragon Balls.SSJ2 said:When the fuck was that?
The stages of the fight go like this:SSJ2 said:Boys, I understand you monsters know what the fuck that means, but when in the fight is that? Fuck I don't even remember if Freeza was 100% then.
Freeza stated Goku had been buying time so the others could get off the planet, and even though Goku kind of denied it stating he is about to finish off Freeza, him thinking to himself right after about them getting off the planet means what Freeza said was accurate. What do you think the "buying time" means? Goku not going all out? Right after that we have the clash between the KMHMH and Freeza's shield iirc, to which at least in that moment Goku yelled "Die, Freeza!!".Captain Cadaver said:The stages of the fight go like this:SSJ2 said:Boys, I understand you monsters know what the fuck that means, but when in the fight is that? Fuck I don't even remember if Freeza was 100% then.
- 100% Freeza wails on a stalling Goku and pushes him into the Ocean
- Porunga is revived and everyone is wished to Earth.
- Galu makes the statement
I'd assume Freeza was still at 100% since Goku seemed to make no note of his dropping power until halfway into the next chapter and the two seemed dead even during the last page of chapter 324 and the first 4-5 pages of 325 before Galu starts tooling him, suggesting his drop in power was a sudden drop rather than a gradual decline. The fact he even made this statement even suggests Freeza was still at 100% at this point.
Well, you have a pretty clear example of this when Goku and Piccolo take off their weigthed clothes. They automatically go from 300+ to 400+ units of strength, a brutal increment in DB terms just by increasing their speed.Tapion said:freezamite said:Freezer forcing his body meant:
1. Less power than he should have had (bigger muscles mean less speed, which in DB also means less BP).
I'd like some data on your claims here.
The SSJ has never had any vitalising effect, it was the rage boost that triggered the SSJ that had it (just like Gohan with his rage boosts -we have two of them where he recovers any lost strength with Vegeta in the earth and Cell-).ahill1 said:I agree with this sir. I think Freeza's power dropped after the Genki Dama, but his 100% had kind of a vitalizing effect, much like the SSJ. Granted that Freeza later stated he'd lose "even more" power after the Genki-Dama, but he could have already lost a bit of power compared to when he began using his 100% bulky form, but it wasn't so significant to the point of Goku calling out the fight.
Freezer's power diminished gradually since he reached his peak of power usage (as it's explained in the manga). The thing is, attacks like the supernova surely had their impact on Goku, so that's why the difference in stamina took that long to be decisive.Captain Cadaver said:I'd assume Freeza was still at 100% since Goku seemed to make no note of his dropping power until halfway into the next chapter and the two seemed dead even during the last page of chapter 324 and the first 4-5 pages of 325 before Galu starts tooling him, suggesting his drop in power was a sudden drop rather than a gradual decline. The fact he even made this statement even suggests Freeza was still at 100% at this point.
Well, you have a pretty clear example of this when Goku and Piccolo take off their weigthed clothes. They automatically go from 300+ to 400+ units of strength, a brutal increment in DB terms just by increasing their speed
I think we are talking about different things here. In real life, you can run fast or run slowly. In DB, you can run fast or run slowly AND you can increase your speed (or diminish it) through powering up.Tapion said:Well, you have a pretty clear example of this when Goku and Piccolo take off their weigthed clothes. They automatically go from 300+ to 400+ units of strength, a brutal increment in DB terms just by increasing their speed
I asked for data on the always. Cell yelled "How about we go all-out, in speed at least?". He increased his speed, but not his power. Recoome also increased his speed when he fought 30k Vegeta and didn't increase his power along with it.
Okay, be it the rage boost then. I just said SSJ because that's what Goku turned to be and since the transformation was triggered by the rage boost, it's simple to say "the ssj 'healed' Goku up". But ok.The SSJ has never had any vitalising effect, it was the rage boost that triggered the SSJ that had it (just like Gohan with his rage boosts -we have two of them where he recovers any lost strength with Vegeta in the earth and Cell-).
Never happening before doesn't mean it will NEVER happen. You can't say that just because something has never happened before then it will never happen or show up in a future moment. Also, I don't think I said exactly "healing his injuries"... Freeza still had his injuries and was restrained somewhat by that, I just think that his chi output was that of his 100%.1. Never before a simple power up resulted in healing one's injures
Goku wasn't sure about Cell's power up though. I think that maybe if you are too close to your FP, then the injuries you receive may end up affecting your true power. Cell stated Goku was somewhat close to him, yet we know Cell did lose a lot of power when fighting Goku, and YET Cell was confident enough to defeat Goku if he took another senzu and was back at 100%. So his power up would be still significant enough besides the injuries and may very well have put him back at his true 100%. Goku maybe wasn't sure how Cell's damage would affect his full power, hence why he wanted both fighters to be at 100%... moreover, he was pretty confident in Gohan's abilities with the rage boost, so giving Cell a senzu wouldn't have mattered much.2. Cell, an improved clone of Freezer (in other words, anything Freeza was able to do, Cell could do it as well) never had this ability. In fact, despite fighting with Goku while still reserving part of his strength, Goku had to give him a senzu bean so he could recover.
If Cell had to eat a senzu, why would Freezer be any different?
Well, the difference is pretty big narratively speaking. A rage boost was something known and defined, something the series had already introduced and that would still be used in future fights.ahill1 said:Okay, be it the rage boost then. I just said SSJ because that's what Goku turned to be and since the transformation was triggered by the rage boost, it's simple to say "the ssj 'healed' Goku up". But ok.
Yeah, it doesn't mean it will NEVER happen, but since it's going against the norm you have to proof in an indisputable way that this was the case.ahill1 said:Never happening before doesn't mean it will NEVER happen. You can't say that just because something has never happened before then it will never happen or show up in a future moment. Also, I don't think I said exactly "healing his injuries"... Freeza still had his injuries and was restrained somewhat by that, I just think that his chi output was that of his 100%.
We have multiple cases that are very similar to Freezer's even if they don't speak in percentages.ahill1 said:Also, regarding your "never a simple power up resulted in healing one's injuries", can you point me out then when has a character said he'd use 100% of his powers but it turned out he was just using a fraction of his powers instead? I don't think there's any example of such, besides Freeza that you will probably cite up as an example. If you think the "has never happened before" is enough to invalidate the "the power up didn't 'heal' Freeza up", then I can ask a similar question to you, right?
I don't really see the point of this paragraph. I mean, yeah Goku didn't know if Cell was fighting with all he got or if he had some energies in reserve (like it was the case) which is something that has happened since always (Goku didn't know if Freezer was at 50% or not either), and yes, he was confident in Gohan overpowering Cell even if he was healed and all of this is fine but I don't see how it relates to the fact that Cell was injured, that he lost strength and that Goku knew this and gave him a senzu.ahill1 said:Goku wasn't sure about Cell's power up though. I think that maybe if you are too close to your FP, then the injuries you receive may end up affecting your true power. Cell stated Goku was somewhat close to him, yet we know Cell did lose a lot of power when fighting Goku, and YET Cell was confident enough to defeat Goku if he took another senzu and was back at 100%. So his power up would be still significant enough besides the injuries and may very well have put him back at his true 100%. Goku maybe wasn't sure how Cell's damage would affect his full power, hence why he wanted both fighters to be at 100%... moreover, he was pretty confident in Gohan's abilities with the rage boost, so giving Cell a senzu wouldn't have mattered much.
Can you bake this with a concrete example? I mean, besides the Freezer fight, do you have any other example of a character powering up and healing himself in the process (and of course, a character without healing abilities like Bu)?ahill1 said:I think maybe the power up may end up having a healing effect if the fighter wasn't too close to his 100% and if the damage dealt wasn't too big.
Well, yeah, except for the fact that it was never implied that Cell lacked any ability of the ones he was made off, and no one expected him to heal by himself (not even Goku, the one that saw Freezer powering up to 100%).ahill1 said:But even if that doesn't work, I don't think Cell's power up not vitalizing him is enough to say it hasn't happened with Freeza. Sure, Cell's has Freeza cells, can breathe in the space, can be pretty evil, but does it mean even the power up gotta have more or less the same kind of effect?
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.
Well, I know you're not answering to me but thank you for providing me another example of someone that couldn't fight at his maximum strength even if he tried to do so.Evil Vegeta said:ahill, what are your thoughts about Herms' opinion on Piccolo's line?
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.
You could just follow the train of thought that Freeza was at 100% of his power in his current condition rather than his utmost maximum.
So you'd end up with something like, Theoretical 100% Freeza>100% Freeza displayed
That's an interesting question. I'll get back at this later.Evil Vegeta said:ahill, what are your thoughts about Herms' opinion on Piccolo's line?
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
Note: Several people thought this quote was contradictory, due to how Piccolo says Goku is using almost his full power but should have much better power than that. To me though it seems pretty straightforward: Goku is using almost all the power he has in his current sick condition, but Piccolo realizes Goku's full power should be much more than that.
You could just follow the train of thought that Freeza was at 100% of his power in his current condition rather than his utmost maximum.
So you'd end up with something like, Theoretical 100% Freeza>100% Freeza displayed