18 vs Vegeta Discussion

[SSJ2]

P.S. ahill, your post is way too fucking long you scrub!


But nice post.

 

[p123]

TLDR

 

[freezamite]

ahill1:

If she wondered if Vegeta [against her] pretended to be weak, then she considers him a weakling, at least the one who fought her.

In the context of her seeing super Vegeta trashing semi-Cell, Vegeta pretending to be weak can also be interpreted in the sense of Vegeta pretending to be weak in comparison to the super-Vegeta she was witnessing at that point.
Raditz was crazy strong when he appeared, but had he appeared in the Cell saga, he would've been a joke to those same characters. Being "weak" or "strong" isn't an exact measure, and totally depends on the context of the sentence.
When Mutenroshi said Goku was "absurdly fast", he said it comparing him to a normal human being, but compared to him Goku was slow. In the context of the sentence, Goku being "absurdly fast" was correct, but according to you that Mutenroshi was admitting Goku was much faster than him even when he proceeded to out-speed him in the very next scene.

Context matters.

She also said Vegeta was nothing special and helpless against her, which goes hand in hand with her considering the Vegeta her fought weak.

Nobody says Vegeta wasn't helpless against her, but that meaning he was weaker in terms of brute force while ignoring the unlimited energy factor is just your intepretation, which contradicts everything that's said about SSJ Vegeta and 18 in chapter 159.

She could actually have expressed how weaker Vegeta was when fighting her without outright calling him weak, which doesn't give the proper props for an opponent who only lost due to infinite stamina, like Tenshinhan said when Goku was fighting Piccolo Daimao.

She didn't have any intention of praising Vegeta at that point, so there was no purpose on doing so. I mean, it's not like 17, just a chapter before, hadn't said:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P6.3-4
Context: after Vegeta fights No.18 for awhile
No.17: “I’m surprised…His strength greatly differs from what Doctor Gero’s data said, doesn’t it? Vegeta, huh?...He’s an incredible guy.”

Does that mean that Vegeta was stronger than #17? No, in DB characters weren't just "the voice of the author" and weren't just "describing facts". They spoke in the context of their personalities and also what they were trying to achieve with what they said.

That's the way someone to whom Goku was equal before express himself, without flat out calling him weak, like #18 did to an opponent who according to you was her equal.

But that's just because Ten assumed that Goku wasn't playing when they fought in the tournament. That's different characters reaching different conclusions in front of similar situations, which is completely normal.

All comment which are made when #18 is seemingly on the defensive and blocking all of Vegeta's attacks.

How was #18 in the defensive if she was the first one that attacked? Perfect Cell was on the defensive and playing against Vegeta and Vegeta noticed it immediately. 18 was the first one that attacked when the combat resumed with both fighters being serious, and of course she blocked Vegeta's attacks when she could do that (which is the most completely natural way of fighting, no one wants to be hit if that can be avoided).

Piccolo can't sense them, so he is going purely by what he was seeing, i.e, Vegeta attacking with all his might and #18 nonchalantly defending herself.

Yes, I'm sure #18 was playing and expert fighters like Piccolo or the rest of the z-warriors couldn't see something that obvious. Look, #18 wasn't fighting "nonchalantly", she was serious as she stated, or are you saying #18 lied about her not reserving any strength?
I mean, your analysis on the situation implies that:
1. #18 and #17 lied for no apparent reasons.
and/or
2. The z-warriors were incompetent to the point where they couldn't see #18 was just "playing" with Vegeta.

He wasn't, he only stated how his punches lacked weight, which isn't the same as admitting superiority.

If someone says your punches lack weight, that means that your punches are weaker than his punches. Period. No one says a punch thrown at him lacks weight if that punch is as strong as the best one can do.

I'm starting to have a feeling of dishonesty here. I mean, 18 comparing super Vegeta with untrained Vegeta and calling him weak means Vegeta was weak compared to her, and now Piccolo speaking about a punch 17 threw at him and saying "the punch lacks weight" doesn't mean that #17's punches were weaker than what Piccolo could take?
That's not only ignoring the context, it's outright going against the context of what's being said!

Even if it does indicate that, I can easily say that #17 is faster than Piccolo, since Piccolo stated he was pretty fast.

And you're doing it again. We see Piccolo matching #17 speed, so him saying that #17 was fast just means that #17 wasn't slower than Piccolo, not that he was faster than him, and in fact, if the context was different it shouldn't even mean that #17 was as fast as Piccolo as we have dozens of examples of someone praising another fighter ability without that ability being as high as the one that praises it.
Piccolo matched 17's speed, Piccolo took some hits from 17 and considered them weak (and #17 wasn't holding back there).

Freezamite: Vegeta only struggled in pain when he was already too weak to fight the Android.

Not true, Vegeta also struggled in pain when #18 knee'd his gut. In case you missed it:

And as I've said, Vegeta wasn't serious there, so him being too weak to fight the Android (in that case, because he wasn't giving her all he got) still stands true.
Of course, if we take your interpretation of the fight and apply it to my comments I'll be wrong, but since you are answering to me and in that scene I already said that Vegeta wasn't serious (or fighting with 100% of his strength), that's not a valid proof of Vegeta not being able to match the android when he got serious.

Now, this IS a contradiction:

Yes, he did. Just look at his fight against fat Boo, after this latter made that huge explosion. Vegeta was smiling:

He was surprised and angry too.

Firstly, we have this scene where Vegeta wasn't pissed nor angry (he in fact was subestimating the androids here):
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-4.html

Now, ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU SAY, Vegeta had already been fighting with all his strength and had already been completely overpowered by the android at that point.
Are you seriously comparing me this reaction with the one Vegeta had when he sacrified himself, in a latter saga where he had a different personality because he had evolved as character?
When I said Vegeta never did that I meant the Vegeta that was a sadical warrior and also a bad person. In the Bu saga he turned into a good guy (still a badass, but a good guy in the end), so he's a different character that will have different reactions there.

If he really considered himself to be on #18's level, then he wouldn't react with angry towards her saying it, he would just act cocky like when Semi Cell started to mock his chances on a 1 vs 1 fight.

Between being overly confident and out-right scared, there is a wide range of emotions in between. Vegeta mocked the androids when he thought he would be able to defeat them (the page I posted above) and he lost a bit of confidence when his attacks didn't visibly damage the android (he was still confident, although he took what 18 said more seriously), but he was nowhere in the point of desperation as when he faced Freezer or Perfect Cell.
Him being surprised at the android saiying he wasn't special already demonstrates that he didn't considere him weaker than here there either.

Debatable if #18 was ever serious against Vegeta, whereas there are points implying she wasn't.

Not debatable at all unless we assume she and 17 lied for no reasons. 18 said she wasn't restraining her power, and 17 confirmed that was true when he said that with the help of much weaker fighters Vegeta would've won.

Vegeta headbutted and blasted her, all of which did no damage.

How do you know this:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-5.html
Did more damage than this:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-6.html
Or this:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-7.html

When the result is this?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-9.html

You don't even see #18's face when she is on the receving end, and none of them got any extra visible damage with those hits (well, 18 got some very superficial scratches on her)!
You are just interpreting each scene the way it serves better your purposes. How can you say that 18's hit damaged Vegeta a lot while Vegeta's hits didn't damage her at all? In what are you basing your judgement here?

Even if you think that's matching her, and that Vegeta wasn't serious before, I can easily say the same for #18:

#18 (all out) > #18 (vs Vegeta) > Vegeta.

But now you would be contradicting what the androids said: that #18 was in fact going all out against SSJ Vegeta! Of course, you could easily say that, but by doing so you would be easily contradicting what they said in the manga.

Except there are explanations to what happened on those pages. Either they weren't on par and it just seemed they were or #18 wasn't going all out. Your interpretation contradicts everything that goes after it.

No, my interpretation contradicts YOUR interpretation on what goes after it, because I've already given reasonable explanations to every single quote you've provided ALL in the context of the series and considering all the facts.
On the other hand, they being not on par and the z-warriors being all retarded is one (very forced) "explanation" (sounds more like a bad made up excuse) of yours and #18 not being serious when she said she was another one.
Instead of adapting your interpretation to what's said and shown in the manga, you're trying to adapt the manga to what you would like to happen there, but that of course has a problem: every time you justify one scene, you contradict another one or at least you have to be assuming something that's really really forced for it to make sense (like the z-warriors witnessing 18 trashing Vegeta and being so retarded to not notice it).

And why the blast wasn't him at 100%? Because he didn't damage #18? That only shows 18 > Vegeta.

Because it was a rapid fired ki blast? I'ts not that he wasn't at 100% there, it's just that it wasn't his best Ki-blast as you try to imply, just a half-assed rapidly fired one. Why do you think those blasts didn't affect Cell?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-191-index-2-page-7.html
While that blast affected him?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-190-index-2-page-10.html

It's obvious Vegeta's blast was a rapidly fired one here:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-8.html

Unless you assume that 18 took a long time to recover from Vegeta's hits, but then you would contradict yourself in that those hits had no effect on the android, so...

The same Toriyama who had #18 stating Vegeta was hopeless, nothing special?

Yes, the same Toriyama that had #17 stating Vegeta was incredible. See?

Ok, and #17 was faster.

Or just as fast. But let's assume he was faster as you say, even in that case it could still be explained why he resisted more than Vegeta. If Piccolo and 17 where the same with Piccolo having an advantage in damage resistance/strength and 17 in speed, while Vegeta and 18 were equal in every sense, that means that Vegeta took more damage from 18 (and lost more strength as a result) than Piccolo from 17.

Evil Vegeta

No, that's called going out of context when you know what the point is..

You're using that "everyone" in the sense of absolutely everyone to justify that Ginger Town Cell was above Vegeta, so you can't claim context here.
I mean, in the context of what I'm saying, that "everyone" referred to the Androids and Piccolo, not Ginger Town Cell that had to hide from SSJ Vegeta and also admitted he had to hurry absorb more humans.

Again, how does slowly wearing a Vegetdown change the fact that she broke his arm with a single kick and pummeled him enough to put him in a near death state? Because she's noticeably stronger.

She only did that after Vegeta had enough energy (not only from when he was being pushed back, but also from the hits he took before 18 broke his arm). I mean, was Vegeta weaker than Krilin in the earth as well?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-47-index-2-page-15.html

.....He's complaining.

Sure?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-4.html

Vegeta said all of them would've been useless against. He actually knows how strong they are while #17 is guessing on their power.

#17 said what he said AFTER Vegeta said they would be useless. So, unless in that chapter everyone became overly retarded, 17 already knew Vegeta was the strongest of the bunch by a good margin.
Vegeta insulted them because that's what Vegeta does, but 17 and 18 had no reason to lie. If 17 said that knowing that the other z-warriors were weaker than Vegeta, it's because he knew Vegeta was close to 18 in power.

Not really, no. You choose to accept certain parts that you agree with and change the meaning of what's shown in others. Literally every quote from Vegeta is from the standpoint of the weaker fighter that lost. Not that he narrowly lost because he quickly ran out of stamina.

And since when losing because of the stamina is not losing a fight? 18 could take Vegeta's punches while Vegeta couldn't take 18's punches, that makes her superior.

Which proved to be too much for Vegeta when she decided to start hitting him. She's also on par with Weighted Piccolo, who's superior to Vegeta.

We have a problem here. Because if 18 proved to be on par with weighted Piccolo who's superior to Vegeta but its also on par with 17, does that mean that 17 and 18 were equal in power and that Toriyama lied to us?
Or it's just that 16 spoke in a general sense, and Piccolo was in the 17-18 range of power which could be possible with him being above SSJ Vegeta as 17 was stated to be above 18?

If you want to use that sentence from 16 to demonstrate that "Piccolo was just as strong as 18 while he surpassed Vegeta", then you're contradicting the stated fact that 17 was above 18, otherwise your interpretation of the sentence isn't valid.
As I've said, 17>=GT Piccolo >18=SSJVegeta would also explain this perfectly, wihtout contradicting anything that's said.

They couldn't simply ignore the others attacks and pretend as if it didn't affect them. #18 did just that to Vegeta, which means his attacks were failing to damage her. Trunks is simply going by what he's seeing, but Vegeta gets demolished on the following page.

18 only ignored Vegeta's attacks while he wasn't serious or after he got too tired.
So you're telling me that Vegeta's attacks weren't affecting the android while the android's attacks were demolishing Vegeta and the ultra-retarded z-warriors couldn't notice something as obvious as that?
Dead before wrong, not a good philosophy...

They were surprised when Piccolo said Goku looked weak against #19 as well.

This is not even a good excuse. Of course they looked surprised when Piccolo said Goku was weak, their only reference was when they saw SSJ Goku in a situation when he wasn't fighting 3 years before, and were oblivious of the strength Goku should've had if serious in a fight.
And considering the difference in power and how imprecise Ki sensing can be in those cases, it's only logic that for Ten or Yamcha Goku's strength was too big to compare.

But your excuse is invalid because even when they were surprised at Goku being weaker, they were still perfectly able to see that Goku was stronger than 19:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-7.html

So you've put an example so bad that in fact contradicts what you're trying to prove!

He said #18 was slowly wearing him down.

In fact he said the android was pushing him back (since you're going as far as to use the concrete wording of a translation to prove your point, let's use Herm's more exact approach if we have the option of doing so).

How do you lose the battle on the following page by being slowly worn down?

Because considering the Android had unlimited energy, Vegeta crossed the line at which point he couldn't fight her any longer?
You seem to forget that you lose strength when you take damage. So in the next page, besides Vegeta already being weaker he took a kick to his legs (lost some more energy), then a punch to the face (lost even more energy) and finally the difference in strength was big enough for 18 to do serious damage. Even in the damage Vegeta takes from each one of 18's attacks there is a clear progression on how Vegeta is more and more affected because he has less and less strength.

Super Saiyan is far superior to Kaio-Ken x20, though. You're undermining the entire form when you say it's weaker than the power-up that was shown to be useless against Freeza.

Not that this has to be discussed in here, but if even Toriyama said it, there must have been a reason. I mean, you're not only undermining, but even nullifying the effects that huge Genkidama had on Freezer in order to make a point.

And finally, another example of lying before admiting one may be wrong.

Toriyama said it was 50x in an interview. Don't know how that could be weaker than a KKx20.

This is what Toriyama said (indirect translation from http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1330641-new-interview-with-akira-toriyama/):

TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.

Another translator saying the same http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/:

Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”.

Now, Toriyama said what it said. You can argue he was wrong like those translators also do, but changing what Toriyama said only to fit your agenda is just surrealist.
It's as if for some of you being right at any cost is more important than having an honest discussion, as if saying "I may be wrong" was worse than death itself. This is just a manga not a vital matter, for god's sake!

 

[Pyro]

This is a cartoon, y'all. Y'all make it seem like a presidential matter.

 

[Kyo]

Jeez, I just can't keep up with these long posts anymore. Insanity.

 

[freezamite]

This thread has become a good example when it comes to identify bad debaters. Before having to admit that I've been wrong, I'll let the discussion die (and of course, the next time someone brings this topic up, I'll stick with my original belief because Toriyama will be wrong before I am!).
Sad, but this happens more within the DB community than any other community I've ever seen

 

[p123]

You shouldn't do paragraph long responses though seriously. That shit is too long. There really isn't that much to argue about, you should stick to the main things that are debatable.

 

[p123]

And keep it short!

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah man, no offense but nobody is going to read all that. I've mad long posts but they don't even come close to that.

 

[freezamite]

You shouldn't do paragraph long responses though seriously. That shit is too long. There really isn't that much to argue about, you should stick to the main things that are debatable.

That's true, but I still don't think the length of my post is what has made Evil Vegeta disappear from this thread.

 

[Void]

He's probably not feeling the essays, either.

You need an avatar, freezamite.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I stopped replying because there's literally no point in continuing. I'm not about to try and convince someone that believes 50% Freeza=Semi-Cell that Vegeta isn't equal to #18. It certainly isn't because your post was too much for me to handle or anything remotely close to that. You see the story how you choose. Cool. Best to just leave it at that.

 

[freezamite]

I stopped replying because there's literally no point in continuing. I'm not about to try and convince someone that believes 50% Freeza=Semi-Cell that Vegeta isn't equal to #18. It certainly isn't because your post was too much for me to handle or anything remotely close to that. You see the story how you choose. Cool. Best to just leave it at that.

There's no point if your only aim is to "win" the discussion at any cost, and the fact that in your last message you even proved my point without realising it only to disappear later confirms this. I'm just saying this is not a good attitude to have, even less when what we're discussing is just a manga and not a vital matter.

Paladin: I never tend to use avatars but I love that one. I'll use it!

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I dunno why you think I'm concerned about winning. I really couldn't care less. The point of a debate is to have an open-ended exchange of information with actual discussion on both ends. Based on how often you hand-wave anything that's brought to the table that you disagree with, I realize it's a futile effort. Having long drawn out discussions is something I can do with a lot of people, and is something I do on a daily in various (politics, relationships, Manga, etc) topics. I just know when it's futile to continue trying with certain people.

Also, making sly remarks about people being "bad debaters" is both hilarious and childish. If this isn't a vital matter, surely remarks like that have no reason to be dished out.

 

[freezamite]

I dunno why you think I'm concerned about winning. I really couldn't care less. The point of a debate is to have an open-ended exchange of information with actual discussion on both ends. Based on how often you hand-wave anything that's brought to the table that you disagree with, I realize it's a futile effort. Having long drawn out discussions is something I can do with a lot of people, and is something I do on a daily in various (politics, relationships, Manga, etc) topics. I just know when it's futile to continue trying with certain people.

Also, making sly remarks about people being "bad debaters" is both hilarious and childish. If this isn't a vital matter, surely remarks like that have no reason to be dished out.

Thing is, I already proved multiple times that when I'm wrong I acknowledge it, something I haven't seen from you in any of your messages (and you've even laughed at what Toriyama said in order to try to prove your points!).
But well, this is an off-topic debate so we can end it here.

 

[p123]

Close this thread, this topic has gone stale.