18 vs Vegeta Discussion

[Kyo]

Kyo, so you think 18 went all out against Vegeta?

I'm just saying that's what she says.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, 18 told she wouldn't hold back anymore, which feels a bot strange if she still did. We have two options here:

1- #18 in fact was still holding back, explaining why Vegeta could still keep up with her;
2-#18 didn't hold back and Vegeta didn't quite keep up with her, the fight is a bit more complex than we think.

 

[freezamite]

Big Poppa Pump

Actually, sir, close combat also means close quarters.

True, but even then it's implied in the description that the reason 18 won was the unlimited energy and not her being much stronger than Vegeta.

Fantastische Hure

#18 had a nonchalant look on her face for all of the fight. Vegeta was no threat to her. If Vegeta actually rivalled her she'd have shown some effort, like against Mighty-Mask.

Vegeta was no threat to her, nobody discusses that. But that doesn't negate the fact that Vegeta matched her in strength and what gave the android the upperhand was his unlimited energy.

ahill1

And because Vegeta couldn't really do any damage to her either.

18 didn't inflict any serious damage to Vegeta until his strength became too low to continue to fight at her same level. As I said, Freezer and Goku both spend multiple chapters fighting without doing any damage to each other. It's just that in the case of the android, that implied her already gaining an advantage because no matter how much you damage them they won't lose any energy.

Yeah, it would be a stretch to say someone equal to her was an weakling

She didn't say he was a weakling, she wondered if Vegeta pretended to be weak in a context where Vegeta multiplied his strength in a matter of days.
Compared to the Vegeta she was seeing at that moment, the Vegeta she fought was a weakling, which is different.

The unlimited stamina was just something that turned them even more helpless. It was a thing alongside with their power advantage.

If she had such a power advantage, how is it that nobody realised it? I mean, since when are the Z-warriors a bunch of retardeds that in front of a stomp they thing the match is even and that Vegeta is fighting her at her same level?

Like I said, it was due to infinite stamina and them being stronger. You are making infinite stamina a solely factor when it's not. Like already said, if you want to see a fight between both fighter with equal powers but with the infinite stamina playing a factor, then see Piccolo vs #17, or #16 vs Cell.

Piccolo was stated to be a bit stronger than 17, and more importantly, in that fight Toriyama's purpose wasn't to just show how terrible the androids were. Vegeta vs 18 was the introduction to the new androids, it was portrayed in a way to hype them in the same way the Nappa vs Goku fight was portrayed in a way to hype Goku while not making him overwhelmingly stronger.

Never said she was holding back against Vegeta, but that wouldn't have made a difference, seeing as the fight with both serious consisted of Vegeta constantly failing at damaging #18, whereas her attacks clearly did some sort of damage and made Vegeta struggle in pain.

Vegeta only struggled in pain when he was already too weak to fight the Android. In the part where he was serious and not weakened, 18 didn't inflict any serious damage to him either.

Except the smile isn't one of someone who is excited over the battle or of someone who knows he will still win. While smiling Vegeta tells he is mad seeing how she doesn't flinich by any of his attacks.

If he wasn't confident in his possibilities, why did he acted as if he was surprised when 18 told him he was nothing special? Vegeta may be a proud warrior, but he is not retarded and he has never smiled in a situation when he was clearly overpowered.

Trunks was the only one who said that. Trunks flew in, witnessed part of the fight and thought Vegeta was #18's equal and at that time it seemed like it was, so we can't really blame him. But if Trunks witnessed the whole fight, could sense #18's chi and still said they were equal, then we would have Vegeta = #18.

Nope, every single z-warrior agreed in that Vegeta matched the android. Trunks was the one we saw what he was thinking, but when Piccolo said Vegeta was the one loosing, every one of them (Krilin, Trunks and Ten) were surprised. In fact, even Piccolo agrees in that they were even, as the reason he thought Vegeta was going to lose wasn't that he was weaker but that he was getting weaker while the android wasn't.

Furthermore, the part that the z-warriors witnessed was the one where both the android and Vegeta were fighting seriously, so it's not as if he said that when the Android was still playing and Vegeta seemed to have a slight advantage over her.

That's just part of the reason. Piccolo said Vegeta was slowly wearing down and right after it Vegeta gets the shit beated out of him, implying the stamina's depletion wasn't the solely factor since nothing implies Vegeta's stamina suddenly took a huge dip.

No, if the Android had overpowered Vegeta all the time as you imply, his explanation would be retarded. I mean, you're arguing that Vegeta's best punches didn't do anything to the android, while the android punches were demolishing SSJ Vegeta. What sense does it make in that context to explain the situation like Piccolo did? And what sense does it make for the z-warriors to think that Vegeta wouldn't lose?

We're speaking of extremely experienced warriors that couldn't even see something as obvious as the android trashing Vegeta like you imply she was doing?
Toriyama didn't want to spend a lot of chapters in the android's introductory fight and mostly skiped the part where Vegeta and 18 were equals. Instead of spending dozens of pages (or even multiple chapters) to show that, he resolved this in a 1 page dialogue that summarized what was happening. Vegeta getting trashed after Piccolo's explanation just confirmed Piccolo's explanation and doesn't have any meaning besides Vegeta having lost too much strength at that point.
Your interpretation of the fight contradicts everything that's said at that page, even Piccolo's explanation on why Vegeta was going to lose.

Again, nothing indicates Vegeta wasn't serious against her.
The only thing #18 states Vegeta held back was on his blast:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P10.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tries to blast No.18, only managing to destroy a truck
No.18: “That blast just now wasn’t anywhere near your all.”
Vegeta: “Of course not…If I gave it my all, the entire Earth would be wiped out…”

Right after it, #18 states she wasn't giving her all either and headbutt Vegeta, to which this latter is really angry and punches her into the gut, with nothing implying he was using anywhere but his all. Even so, 18 is able to damage Vegeta while Vegeta isn't able to do the same, clearly indicating a gap between the two.

Everything indicates Vegeta wasn't serious. From him being able to match her latter in the fight, to him being surprised when the android said he was nothing special, to every single z-warrior thinking Vegeta could have won that fight until they realised the difference in stamina.

So you're seriously believing that Vegeta was fighting at 100% of strength and that then he suddenly fired a ki blast without being serious for no reason? Why would he suddenly drop his strength for a single scene?

At that time, Toriyama also made mention of the Kaioken through his characters twice, which was like Goku's trump card, so no reason to think he wanted to keep base Goku as godly powerful.

And at this fight Toriyama gave the unlimited energy as the reason 18 trashed Vegeta, so also no reason to think he wanted to make her godly powerful either

Like I said, it was said more than once they were on par with each other.

And he was on par. He just had a slight advantage in brute strength and damage resistance that allowed him to fight 17 at his same level for a larger time than Vegeta could against 18.

He said the blast wasn't at full power otherwise it would have desteoyed the Earth.

And he latter fired a ki blast while serious and the earth didn't go anywhere. Vegeta liked to brag about his power, it's not as if he was a computer just stating solid facts. If Toriyama was a worse writter... but he was good, and every character speaked in the context of his personality and not just being the voice of the author as you think they were.

Vegeta's reactions doesn't tell much when we clearly see he is outmatched.

The thing is, you aren't seeing that. We have a couple of glimpses of not weakened Vegeta vs 18 when they both were serious and in those pages he wasn't outmatched by any means. He received a punch, he connected two plus a ki blast, and then they both fought without connecting any good hit (at least that we saw) until Vegeta's loss of stamina had too much of an effect.

Desperation doesn't always comes accompanied from a worried face or so. There are other ways to convey a feeling. Vegeta is mad at his lack of success in damaging #18. He has a smile on his face while stating his displeasure at not damaging her.

In the case of Vegeta, it always came accompanied from a worried face. I mean, can you even provide a single other example of Vegeta being overpowered and reacting with a smile? It's not like we don't have dozens of examples of that, and what a coincidence, he just reacts as you say in the only fight where we were told Vegeta wasn't being overpowered.
In fact, why wasn't he smiling when 18 broke his arm or started to gain the advantage?

No, it just proves Vegeta still didn't realize how outclassed he was, seemingly because he was still in some kind of denial about the SSJ being the strongest.

And why would Vegeta (and any other z-warrior) become so retarded to not see something as obvious as you try to imply?
Him being in denial it's not a good excuse, because if Vegeta seemed confident against the android, he was even more confident and full of himself when he fought Cell (he went to the extreme of calling himself "super Vegeta") and he just needed a single hit to realise how inferior he was and act as he always acts when he is being overpowered.

Look, if you isolate every single argument I give and forget about the big picture of course you'll be able to find an explanation for everything that fits your narrative. But let's analyse the overall picture:
Vegeta said he wasn't serious and the android overpowered him. You say it was just for that ki blast, but that's just your interpretation (already a bit forced as I see it, because I can't even understand why he would lower his strength just for a single attack).
Confident in his posibilities (my interpretation of seeing him smiling instead of trembling in fear like he always do when outmatched), he then proceeded to match the android (that's a fact, unlike we assume every single z-warrior became retarded or lied to us) which reinforces the idea that Vegeta had been holding back until then, and was even surprised when the android told him he wasn't anything special (your interpretation is that he didn't realise the android had been trashing him the whole time, but that's your interpretation and it would be great if you backed it with at least another example of Vegeta being clearly trashed and him not realising he was inferior to his opponent to back your claim).

What Recoome did is nk different from what #18 did, yet he showed a "more hopeless face" against Recoome. Guess what you will, but there are at least some explanations:

1- Vegeta could feel Recoome's chi, so he'd already know how outmatched he is;
2- Vegeta already sort of knew he is the inferior one before the battle even started, unlike the fight against #18.

But what you're saying is that Vegeta didn't know he was inferior after the android had been trashing him while he was giving her his best!
Your explanations would be ok in a context where the first half of dbz chapter 159 didn't exist, if just after resuming their match, the android broke Vegeta's arm. But that only happened after that first half of the chapter 159 where everything and everyone pointed to Vegeta being able to match her.

He obviously wasn't counting with Zarbon's transformation on that case, otherwise Zarbon alone would already be enough.

?? Why wouldn't he count on Zarbon's transformation? He knew Zarbon could transform, and he assumed Zarbon had to do that when he told him he had defeated Vegeta, it doesn't mean Freezer knew the extent of Zarbon's strength when transformed (it wouldn't be strange considering Zarbon didn't like to transform, and that he normally didn't had any reason to fight with Freezer at his side).

While both are indicative of some rather large chi, one was consistently used by a character expressing how his power has been surpassed by the "absurdly large one", while "huge" hasn't the same comsistency on his usage.

And the first time the "absurdly" adjective is used in the whole series (absurdly fast), it's used to describe a speed that while huge, was much lower than the one that used that expression could achieve.
Trying to make a rule from the wording of a couple of sentences while ignoring all the stated facts (and directly contradict them) it's not a good point as I see it. It's just semantics, and I don't think that "huge" transmits the idea of something being less impressive than "absurdly large".

 

[Evil Vegeta]

They ain't equal. Vegeta can't damage her. #16 and Cell are equals and both damaged each other. Piccolo and #17 are equals and both damaged each other. Merged Piccolo rivals both Androids. Vegeta isn't included.

Dude, you keep saying Vegeta isn't retarded while ignoring the fact that he displays a clear case of denial throughout the Android saga.

Come on, man. Vegeta clearly overestimated himself and the Super Saiyan transformation. On top of that, he says he'll surpass the enemy no matter how strong they are. The point is Vegeta's weaker than the Androids and he's not equal to #18. Nearly everything in the story shows this.

 

[freezamite]

They ain't equal. Vegeta can't damage her. #16 and Cell are equals and both damaged each other. Piccolo and #17 are equals and both damaged each other. Merged Piccolo rivals both Androids. Vegeta isn't included.

Dude, you keep saying Vegeta isn't retarded while ignoring the fact that he displays a clear case of denial throughout the Android saga.

Come on, man. Vegeta clearly overestimated himself and the Super Saiyan transformation. On top of that, he says he'll surpass the enemy no matter how strong they are. The point is Vegeta's weaker than the Androids and he's not equal to #18. Nearly everything in the story shows this.

One thing is being in denial, the other one is being trashed and every single z-warrior thinking he was fighting her at her same level.
I mean, were they lying here? http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-12.html

Were they also in denial? And why wouldn't "super Vegeta" be in denial as well (he even went as far as to call himself super Vegeta)?

Him admiting his defeat after he was clearly beaten doesn't prove that he wasn't able to match her for a few moments. I mean, come on, why would everyone become crazy/retarded for a single chapter?
Your scene can perfectly be explained even if Vegeta matched 18 (the weakest of the trio) during a few minutes (or seconds)...

 

[Evil Vegeta]

She blocked all of his hits when he was supposedly fighting equally with her. How is that fighting equal when she's blocking all of his attempts?

 

[freezamite]

She blocked all of his hits when he was supposedly fighting equally with her. How is that fighting equal when she's blocking all of his attempts?

She didn't block everything (in fact, Vegeta was the one that connected more hits after they both got serious -a headbutt, a solid hit, and a fast fired ki blast, versus a single hit in the face by the android-).
At that point, we aren't seeing the fight, but if they all thought Vegeta had possibilities it's obvious that Vegeta also blocked the hits she tried to deliver, or they both were connecting some light punches to each others, or whatever (it's not shown).

But I insist, if the android was trashing Vegeta, why is it that everyone became so retarded all of a sudden? Vegeta becoming overconfident to the point where he is being trashed and doesn't realise it (or doesn't want to accept it) is already a stretch considering that he faced Freezer convinced he had become a SSJ (even if he really hadn't) or fought Cell while calling himself "super Vegeta" and that didn't prevent him to realise the difference in strength, but for Krilin, Trunks, Ten and Piccolo to be equally wrong? That's too much. Even more if even #17 states that with help from the others (and he knew Vegeta was the strongest, Vegeta made that clear when everyone arrived) #18 wouldn't have been able to win. If the difference in strength with the strongest of the z-warriors was already as big as you imply, even #17 became crazy in chapter 159!

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I'm talking about when Trunks said he was fighting on par with her. He didn't say this until he attacked her towards the end.

Which is really funny when you think about it. Vegeta knocked her down and unleashed a blast (doing no damage), but Trunks only got excited when she started blocking his attacks. No, it isn't obvious. If Piccolo is saying she's wearing him down, then she's obviously on the defense forcing him to exert himself. That has more merit than her attacking back. When we actually see her fight back, Vegeta gets clowned.

 

[freezamite]

I'm talking about when Trunks said he was fighting on par with her. He didn't say this until he attacked her towards the end.

Which is really funny when you think about it. Vegeta knocked her down and unleashed a blast (doing no damage), but Trunks only got excited when she started blocking his attacks. No, it isn't obvious. If Piccolo is saying she's wearing him down, then she's obviously on the defense forcing him to exert himself. That has more merit than her attacking back. When we actually see her fight back, Vegeta gets clowned.

But she stated she was going serious since way before that, so those hits count as well.
And besides, that's Herm's translation on the sentence:

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

So if she was pushing him back, that means that they were both attacking and defending with the android gaining a slight advantage that only got bigger as the fight continued. And when we actually see her fighting back, it had already been explained that Vegeta wasn't at her level anymore.
But it's not as if the android had been going in the defensive in that fight, in fact, she was the one that first launched an attack (the only punch we saw she connected to serious Vegeta), and she had no reason to stop attacking all of a sudden.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

That was never stated. Piccolo said she was slowly making him wear himself out the more he moves, but you're suggesting he lost the majority of his power in the following panel afterwards. An actual situation where Vegeta exhausted most of his power? When Vegeta did Big Bang Attack after #19 absorbed most of his energy. This situation isn't comparable. He failed to damage her because he was weaker. They "easily" surpass all of the Super Saiyans because they're stronger. He's not on her level. Vegeta basically said all of this himself and you're saying he's wrong.

And you said Vegeta never smiled when he was overpowered?

He was clearly outmatched there, so.

 

[freezamite]

That was never stated. Piccolo said she was slowly making him wear himself out the more he moves, but you're suggesting he lost the majority of his power in the following panel afterwards. An actual situation where Vegeta exhausted most of his power? When Vegeta did Big Bang Attack after #19 absorbed most of his energy. This situation isn't comparable. He failed to damage her because he was weaker. They "easily" surpass all of the Super Saiyans because they're stronger. He's not on her level. Vegeta basically said all of this himself and you're saying he's wrong.

And you said Vegeta never smiled when he was overpowered?

He was clearly outmatched there, so.

You're basing all your argument in the wording of a concrete translation, but as I've proved with a different translation, the sentence wasn't implying anywere that the android was just defending herself (in fact, she was the one that started attacking, so why would she suddenly stop doing it?).
And no, I'm not saying Vegeta got exhausted in one panel, he was losing strength since the very beginning of the fight. It's just that this was only made clearly apparent after Piccolo explained what was happening.
And yes, Majin Vegeta (the one that for the first time in the series sacrified himself to protect the earth) smiled, but that was Buu saga Vegeta who had a different personality (he even admited Goku was better than him later in the saga).
But even if we negate that the character had clearly evolved (it clearly had), are you comparing me that smile of him to his smile in those scenes?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-3.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-4.html

Are you saying that in those pages Vegeta knew he was going to lose and he was sacrifying himself? Come on, context matters, and it's obvious that Bu saga Vegeta had evolved in comparison to pre-Bu saga Vegeta, and that this Vegeta wasn't smiling in the same way Majin Bu saga Vegeta did when he had already accepted that he was going to die.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Vegeta said everyone was "easily" surpassing the Super Saiyan. That means Piccolo, Cell, and the Androids are easily above the Super Saiyans. Vegeta said "no matter how strong" the enemy is, he'll surpass them. Emphasis is on power, not unlimited stamina. You're totally making it seem like #18 only won because of that reason even though Vegeta failed to damage her. They're not equal.

You said he never smiled in a situation where he was clearly overpowered because he's not retarded. So are you saying he's retarded because his personality is different? He called Boo immortal and powerful after taking significant damage from Boo's attack while smiling. This just shows that smiling at #18 means nothing because his words clearly didn't match his facial expression. The fact that she was able to quickly piss him off by saying he's nothing special also proves that he Vegeta's in his own little world when it comes to thinking he's the best in the universe.

So again:

-Piccolo rivals both Androids. Vegeta doesn't.
-Vegeta says no matter how strong the enemy is, he'll surpass them. This is before Piccolo merged with Kami. He's talking about the Androids.
-Vegeta says all of them are easily surpassing the Super Saiyan. That means all of them are more powerful than the Super Saiyans. There's no other way to take the quote.
-Piccolo said he had no chance against the Androids.
-#18 said Vegeta was helpless against her. The same #18 has no problem complimenting Piccolo's power. She complimented Vegeta, but he wasn't on her level

All you have is Piccolo's comment on #18 slowly wearing him down, but it's not like he could comment on any her power. He's simply going off of what's shown. In the end, she crushed him with nothing but melee attacks, nearly killing him without the use of any Chi-attacks. The most impressive thing he did was destroy her jacket. Other than that, he completely failed to damage her. They're not equals.

 

[ahill1]

18 didn't inflict any serious damage to Vegeta until his strength became too low to continue to fight at her same level.

She still did damage to Vegeta. Vegeta did none. Kkx3 Goku also didn't do any "serious damage" to Vegeta, and his KMHMH + Kaioken x4, which threw Vegeta upwards wasn't enough to finish the job, either. Goku admitted Vegeta is tough and that he had to finish this quick. At this same gap, Cui, for example, could barely withstand Vegeta's hits, whose two attacks (a punch in the gut and in the face) were already enough to let him in a position where he couldn't dodge his attack. Vegeta's toughness can explain the lack of "fatal damage" initially, but the point is that he could be hurt by #18's attack, struggling with his pain.

She didn't say he was a weakling, she wondered if Vegeta pretended to be weak in a context where Vegeta multiplied his strength in a matter of days.

If she wondered if Vegeta [against her] pretended to be weak, then she considers him a weakling, at least the one who fought her. She also said Vegeta was nothing special and helpless against her, which goes hand in hand with her considering the Vegeta her fought weak. She could actually have expressed how weaker Vegeta was when fighting her without outright calling him weak, which doesn't give the proper props for an opponent who only lost due to infinite stamina, like Tenshinhan said when Goku was fighting Piccolo Daimao.

Chapter: 155, P2.2
Context: said after he kills Drum
Tenshinhan: “One hit…just one hit…What’s happened?...He’s not the same Son he was before…! He shouldn’t have had such stupendous destructive power…!”

That's the way someone to whom Goku was equal before express himself, without flat out calling him weak, like #18 did to an opponent who according to you was her equal.

If she had such a power advantage, how is it that nobody realised it? I mean, since when are the Z-warriors a bunch of retardeds that in front of a stomp they thing the match is even and that Vegeta is fighting her at her same level?

All comment which are made when #18 is seemingly on the defensive and blocking all of Vegeta's attacks. Piccolo can't sense them, so he is going purely by what he was seeing, i.e, Vegeta attacking with all his might and #18 nonchalantly defending herself. At that time it didn't seem #18 was in control of the fight, so you can't really blame them, like I said. Piccolo also noted Vegeta was being pushed back bit by a bit, implying his stamina was slowly falling out. Yet, in the next panel, we have #18 already trashing Vegeta.

If you still want to see Vegeta and #18 as even and the main factor being the stamina depletion, then I could easily argue #18 wasn't still going all out, allowing to Vegeta still keep up a little. Trunks, who isn't much different from Vegeta, had his sword broken up by #18's raw arm, implying a big difference between them. Trunks also didn't state that the present androids were above the future ones until he got trashed, implying he didn't realize their true strength until after they beated him. The same with Piccolo, who had yet to say how the androids were greatly above his thoughts.

Piccolo was stated to be a bit stronger than 17, and more importantly

He wasn't, he only stated how his punches lacked weight, which isn't the same as admitting superiority. Even if it does indicate that, I can easily say that #17 is faster than Piccolo, since Piccolo stated he was pretty fast. Doesn't change much. Either way, it's stated they are on par with each other, so whether one was stronger is by a insignificant amount.

in that fight Toriyama's purpose wasn't to just show how terrible the androids were. Vegeta vs 18 was the introduction to the new androids, it was portrayed in a way to hype them in the same way the Nappa vs Goku fight was portrayed in a way to hype Goku while not making him overwhelmingly stronger.

That's an "out of Universe" explanation, which has no much bearing here. But with this, you're pretty much admitting the fights were portrayed differently here.

Vegeta only struggled in pain when he was already too weak to fight the Android.

Not true, Vegeta also struggled in pain when #18 knee'd his gut. In case you missed it:

If he wasn't confident in his possibilities, why did he acted as if he was surprised when 18 told him he was nothing special?

He was surprised and angry too. If he really considered himself to be on #18's level, then he wouldn't react with angry towards her saying it, he would just act cocky like when Semi Cell started to mock his chances on a 1 vs 1 fight. Vegeta is a proud warrior and add that a kind of denial state due to having turned into the supposed strongest in the cosmos, then it stands a reason he wouldn't be happy if #18 bashed him. Just look at how Vegeta reacted to Piccolo [merged with Kami] when this latter replied back to him. He was pretty angry and yelled at him "do you want to be finished before the androids?". That's not the way someone who isn't outmatched acts.

but he is not retarded and he has never smiled in a situation when he was clearly overpowered.

Yes, he did. Just look at his fight against fat Boo, after this latter made that huge explosion. Vegeta was smiling:

Nope, every single z-warrior agreed in that Vegeta matched the android.

Already addressed.

Furthermore, the part that the z-warriors witnessed was the one where both the android and Vegeta were fighting seriously, so it's not as if he said that when the Android was still playing and Vegeta seemed to have a slight advantage over her.

Debatable if #18 was ever serious against Vegeta, whereas there are points implying she wasn't.

No, if the Android had overpowered Vegeta all the time as you imply, his explanation would be retarded.

She overpowered Vegeta just before the Z team arrived. When Piccolo made that comment, it seemed they were having a fair fight, even though #18 was the majority of the time in the defensive. If you were shown these panels of Piccolo vs #17, then you would also think #17 was stomping Piccolo:

Everything indicates Vegeta wasn't serious. From him being able to match her latter in the fight, to him being surprised when the android said he was nothing special, to every single z-warrior thinking Vegeta could have won that fight until they realised the difference in stamina.

Vegeta headbutted and blasted her, all of which did no damage. Later, he was wearing himself down in a moment #18 was pretty much on the defensive. Even if you think that's matching her, and that Vegeta wasn't serious before, I can easily say the same for #18:

#18 (all out) > #18 (vs Vegeta) > Vegeta.

Your interpretation of the fight contradicts everything that's said at that page, even Piccolo's explanation on why Vegeta was going to lose.

Except there are explanations to what happened on those pages. Either they weren't on par and it just seemed they were or #18 wasn't going all out. Your interpretation contradicts everything that goes after it.

So you're seriously believing that Vegeta was fighting at 100% of strength and that then he suddenly fired a ki blast without being serious for no reason?

And why the blast wasn't him at 100%? Because he didn't damage #18? That only shows 18 > Vegeta. Vegeta voices his displeasure on not being able to damage her and is clearly getting nervous. No reason to assume he held back there. He just believe he would win due to not accepting the fact that the SSJ was surpassed. He didn't stop to believe it until #18 broke his arm.

And at this fight Toriyama gave the unlimited energy as the reason 18 trashed Vegeta, so also no reason to think he wanted to make her godly

The same Toriyama who had #18 stating Vegeta was hopeless, nothing special? The same Toriyama who had Piccolo rivaling the androids, to whom Vegeta was clearly dumbfounded at his power? Ok.

And he was on par. He just had a slight advantage in brute strength

Ok, and #17 was faster.

and damage resistance

How so?

him to fight 17 at his same level for a larger time than Vegeta could against 18.

No, Piccolo fought better because he was on par. Vegeta was not.

And he latter fired a ki blast while serious and the earth didn't go anywhere. Vegeta liked to brag about his power, it's not as if he was a computer just stating solid facts. If Toriyama was a worse writter... but he was good, and every character speaked in the context of his personality and not just being the voice of the author as you think they were.

So you will use it now to speculate as to why Vegeta wasn't at full power? Despite things like "destroying the Earth" not being consistent (even though Vegeta stated he'd destroy it if he went at full force)?

But what you're saying is that Vegeta didn't know he was inferior after the android had been trashing him while he was giving her his best!
Your explanations would be ok in a context where the first half of dbz chapter 159 didn't exist, if just after resuming their match, the android broke Vegeta's arm. But that only happened after that first half of the chapter 159 where everything and everyone pointed to Vegeta being able to match her.

Either he was outmatched but it wasn't apparent due to #18 being consistently on the defensive or she held back. Pick one. Fact is, they weren't equal.

Your explanations would be ok in a context where the first half of dbz chapter 159 didn't exist, if just after resuming their match, the android broke Vegeta's arm. But that only happened after that first half of the chapter 159 where everything and everyone pointed to Vegeta being able to match her.

Your interpretation would be ok if all statements centred to the fight AFTER the match ended didn't exist, let alone #18 considering very little of Vegeta, when someone more arrogant than her (#17) admitted Piccolo was on par with him.

?? Why wouldn't he count on Zarbon's transformation?

Because he said the two of them fighting together would be able to manage it. If he were taking into accout Zarbon's transformation, then he alone would be able to do the job. Don't see how you don't see it.

And the first time the "absurdly" adjective is used in the whole series (absurdly fast), it's used to describe a speed that while huge, was much lower than the one that used that expression could achieve.
Trying to make a rule from the wording of a couple of sentences while ignoring all the stated facts (and directly contradict them) it's not a good point as I see it. It's just semantics, and I don't think that "huge" transmits the idea of something being less impressive than "absurdly large".

Absurdly isn't quite the same as absurdly large. The large portions is intensifying just how much the chi is. The fact is, Imperfect Cell was above Vegeta and yet he wasn't considered as one of those who could rival the androids.

 

[Void]

Lol its pretty damn clear that Vegeta is inferior to No.18.

Weighted Piccolo is stated to rival No.18. Vegeta says Piccolo's power far surpasses his. Vegeta also thinks he needs to transcend Super Saiyan before Cell is introduced.

How is this not obvious???

 

[Evil Vegeta]

He rewrote the story.

Kaio-Ken x20>>>>Super Saiyan in his story.

 

[Void]

Yeah, that's weird. Let's not attack him for it, he's been civil.

No.18 is still clearly superior to Vegeta, though.

 

[freezamite]

Vegeta said everyone was "easily" surpassing the Super Saiyan. That means Piccolo, Cell, and the Androids are easily above the Super Saiyans.

Again, that's jumping to conclusions. If you take that "everyone" literally, that would also mean that Krilin or the other z-warriors surpassed the SSJs.
The androids clearly surpassed him (again, no one denies 18 was superior to Vegeta), it's just that 18 (the weakest android besides ginger town Cell, although Cell wasn't an android since he didn't have any mechanical part) surpassed him thanks to her unlimited strength (not that it mattered at all to him, he was beaten regardless of the reason).

Vegeta said "no matter how strong" the enemy is, he'll surpass them. Emphasis is on power, not unlimited stamina. You're totally making it seem like #18 only won because of that reason even though Vegeta failed to damage her. They're not equal.

And she also failed to damage him until he lost strength, but he matched her, that's undeniable unless you want to make everyone in chapter 159 a liar or a fool.

You said he never smiled in a situation where he was clearly overpowered because he's not retarded. So are you saying he's retarded because his personality is different?

No, I'm saying that he smiled in resignation because at that point his personality had already changed (that was made pretty obvious when he explained everything to Goku).
The smile Vegeta had while fighting 18 wasn't of resignation, was of confidence.

He called Boo immortal and powerful after taking significant damage from Boo's attack while smiling. This just shows that smiling at #18 means nothing because his words clearly didn't match his facial expression. The fact that she was able to quickly piss him off by saying he's nothing special also proves that he Vegeta's in his own little world when it comes to thinking he's the best in the universe.

That just shows how much he had evolved as a character from the sadical Vegeta of previous sagas. And as I've said before when answering to ahill1, if you answer to my arguments one by one as if they're isolated you'll be able to justify everything. Vegeta smiled in the Bu saga, the z-warriors could've been wrong and Vegeta was clearly overpowered, 17 could have made a bad judgement when he said 18 wouldn't have been able to take them all... but all of them at the same time? Everyone being wrong in what they saw/said and the first part of serious Vegeta vs serious 18 (where he connects more hits to her than vice-versa) also not taken into account because of reasons?
That's forcing it too much to fit your narrative.

So again:

-Piccolo rivals both Androids. Vegeta doesn't.
-Vegeta says no matter how strong the enemy is, he'll surpass them. This is before Piccolo merged with Kami. He's talking about the Androids.
-Vegeta says all of them are easily surpassing the Super Saiyan. That means all of them are more powerful than the Super Saiyans. There's no other way to take the quote.
-Piccolo said he had no chance against the Androids.
-#18 said Vegeta was helpless against her. The same #18 has no problem complimenting Piccolo's power. She complimented Vegeta, but he wasn't on her level

Where does 16 says that Vegeta didn't match 18 in power? He just said Piccolo matched the androids, and considering 17 was above 18 that gives us a margin where he could do that while slightly surpassing 18 and SSJ Vegeta because he also included 17 in that sentence (and going by that and interpreting it literally, you could also try to argue that 18 and 17 were equal in power, which was clearly proven to not be the case).

And again, "all of them" isn't literal. It's obvious that Krilin hadn't surpassed the SSJ, so Vegeta only said that because he believed the SSJ was invincible and suddenly a bunch of fighters surpassed him (and Cell was also in the SSJ range of power even if not as strong).
And yes, Vegeta was helpless against 18, but because of reasons that weren't him being considerably weaker. 18 fought seriously, 17 said what he said which also means that 18 didn't lie, and everyone agreed in that Vegeta was fighting her at her same level for just a moment.

You're just interpreting those sentences in the way it proves your point, but that doesn't mean it's the only valid interpretation, and it clearly isn't when you contradict other direct statements that were also made.
On the other hand, how do you interprete this if Vegeta wasn't at 18 levels of power?

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

I mean, is there a way to spin that in a way that Vegeta was clearly being overpowered here? He was fighting ON PAR with the android, it's impossible to take this in any other way that isn't Vegeta fighting her... at her same level.

All you have is Piccolo's comment on #18 slowly wearing him down, but it's not like he could comment on any her power. He's simply going off of what's shown. In the end, she crushed him with nothing but melee attacks, nearly killing him without the use of any Chi-attacks. The most impressive thing he did was destroy her jacket. Other than that, he completely failed to damage her. They're not equals.

No, it's obvious that I don't only have Piccolo's comment.
I have:
A18 saying he was fighting with all her strength.
A17 saying 18 wouldn't be able to win if the z-warriors helped Vegeta.
Trunks saying Vegeta was fighting ON PAR with her after she started to fight seriously.
Everyone (Krilin, Ten and Trunks) being surprised when Piccolo said Vegeta was going to lose.
Piccolo saying the reason Vegeta was going to lose was him losing energy instead of him being overpowered.

Everything within the same chapter Vegeta fought 18 seriously. On the other hand, you have indirect statements that if interpreted in the way you interprete them say what you believe they say.
Your statements doesn't prove Vegeta didn't match 18 for a few minutes, because no one denies the android was superior. And none of the quotes you've provided until now contradict anything that was said there. Vegeta was helpless, Vegeta was inferior, Vegeta still matched her in terms of brute force.

He rewrote the story.

Kaio-Ken x20>>>>Super Saiyan in his story.

And according to Toriyama himself in an interview. But hey, what could he know compared to you, right? He only was the author of the series!

PD: I'll answer ahill1 tomorrow, I'm going to sleep.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Again, that's jumping to conclusions. If you take that "everyone" literally, that would also mean that Krilin or the other z-warriors surpassed the SSJs.

No, that's called going out of context when you know what the point is.. When Vegeta says they're all surpassing the Super Saiyan, he's clearly referring to Piccolo, the Androids that he rivals in power, and Cell.

The androids clearly surpassed him (again, no one denies 18 was superior to Vegeta), it's just that 18 (the weakest android besides ginger town Cell, although Cell wasn't an android since he didn't have any mechanical part) surpassed him thanks to her unlimited strength (not that it mattered at all to him, he was beaten regardless of the reason).

#18 surpassed him in power. She just happened to have a special advantage along with it. Piccolo rivals both Androids. Vegeta does not.

And she also failed to damage him until he lost strength, but he matched her, that's undeniable unless you want to make everyone in chapter 159 a liar or a fool.

Yeah, she completely stunned him with a knee to the gut and knocked him away after he failed to make her flinch. Again, how does slowly wearing a Vegetdown change the fact that she broke his arm with a single kick and pummeled him enough to put him in a near death state? Because she's noticeably stronger.

The smile Vegeta had while fighting 18 wasn't of resignation, was of confidence.

.....He's complaining.

17 could have made a bad judgement when he said 18 wouldn't have been able to take them all... but all of them at the same time?

Vegeta said all of them would've been useless against. He actually knows how strong they are while #17 is guessing on their power. Krillin and Tien are utterly useless. Piccolo would get 2 shotted. It'd come down to Vegeta and Trunks, and both would be soundly defeated.

Everyone being wrong in what they saw/said and the first part of serious Vegeta vs serious 18 (where he connects more hits to her than vice-versa) also not taken into account because of reasons?
That's forcing it too much to fit your narrative.

Not really, no. You choose to accept certain parts that you agree with and change the meaning of what's shown in others. Literally every quote from Vegeta is from the standpoint of the weaker fighter that lost. Not that he narrowly lost because he quickly ran out of stamina.

A18 saying he was fighting with all her strength.

Which proved to be too much for Vegeta when she decided to start hitting him. She's also on par with Weighted Piccolo, who's superior to Vegeta.

Trunks saying Vegeta was fighting ON PAR with her after she started to fight seriously.

Actual matches where the fight was on par: Piccolo Vs #17, #16 Vs Cell, Super Saiyan 2 Goku Vs Majin Vegeta, etc. What do all of those fights have in common? They couldn't simply ignore the others attacks and pretend as if it didn't affect them. #18 did just that to Vegeta, which means his attacks were failing to damage her. Trunks is simply going by what he's seeing, but Vegeta gets demolished on the following page.

Everyone (Krilin, Ten and Trunks) being surprised when Piccolo said Vegeta was going to lose.

They were surprised when Piccolo said Goku looked weak against #19 as well.

Piccolo saying the reason Vegeta was going to lose was him losing energy instead of him being overpowered.

He said #18 was slowly wearing him down. Piccolo was able to tell Vegeta lost a lot of energy when #19 drained him. How do you lose the battle on the following page by being slowly worn down? #16 said Weighted Piccolo rivals them both. That means all of them are in the same vicinity of power. Nothing remotely implying #17 is far ahead of #18. Just stronger. Vegeta doesn't rival the Androids, and the power the sensed from Weighted Piccolo made him realize how inferior he was to everyone.

You're going out of context with the Krillin mention when you know that the conversation wasn't about him.The entire conversation was about the Androids and Cell. We already have Vegeta admitting Piccolo is superior.

Vegeta was Helpless because he was weaker and got worn out. You make it seem like both outcomes can't exist.

Read the entire fight. He was soundly defeated after he got really serious. She didn't find him threatening at all. Piccolo showed 2 powerful attacks that could've potentially wiped #17 out. Vegeta does nothing close to this.

Everything within the same chapter Vegeta fought 18 seriously. On the other hand, you have indirect statements that if interpreted in the way you interprete them say what you believe they say.

There's nothing indirect about them. They're very straight-forward. Vegeta says all of them are easily surpassing the Super Saiyan and you're basically saying your opinion supersedes his dialogue.

Your statements doesn't prove Vegeta didn't match 18 for a few minutes, because no one denies the android was superior. And none of the quotes you've provided until now contradict anything that was said there. Vegeta was helpless, Vegeta was inferior, Vegeta still matched her in terms of brute force.

Um, yes, they do. If Piccolo rivals the Androids, it means they're all relatively in the same tier. That tier alone is easily surpassing the Super Saiyans, according to Vegeta. He's not her equal, and he's definitely not within their range of power. Not at all.

And according to Toriyama himself in an interview. But hey, what could he know compared to you, right? He only was the author of the series!

Super Saiyan is far superior to Kaio-Ken x20, though. You're undermining the entire form when you say it's weaker than the power-up that was shown to be useless against Freeza.

 

[Void]

Toriyama said it was 50x in an interview. Don't know how that could be weaker than a KKx20.

 

[SSJ2]

all he said is he initially envisioned it as a 10x boost, no? Which is retconned by Kaioken x10, x20, and SSJ. He knew it had to be larger to make sense.