18 vs Vegeta Discussion

[Evil Vegeta]

I honestly don't understand. We have a guy that's shown to be very accurate (#16) assessors say Piccolo's power alone rivaled both Androids. The same Vegeta says all of them as a whole are easily surpassing the Super Saiyan. By saying Vegeta is equal to #18, you're also saying his power is large enough to rival the Androids. That means he's not much weaker than Piccolo despite us obviously knowing that he's much weaker.

Vegeta: “The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…Im-impossible…He’s just a Namekian...”
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

Sometimes these things don't require you to stretch what's stated. Vegeta had a respectable battle, but he wasn't equal to #18. He's comfortably below her.

 

[Jerk Store]

Vegeta equal to 18? Dude..... Hook me up with your shit, I wanna smoke that!

 

[Kyo]

Yeah. Haven't been following the convo too closely but someone at 94-96% of your power is not "nothing special." Granted, Vegeta is strong enough to where 18 considers an even stronger opponent to be potentially interesting, but otherwise--not worth thinking about.

I can see why people'd get weirded out by this one though. But there are two clear choices imo, either 18 lied about going all-out, or she did go all-out and your reading of the fight is probably wrong if you think Vegeta is anywhere near her (ergo, you are Trunks and Piccolo apparently validates your shitty opinion, congratulations). That's my take.

 

[p123]

Kp, those were some glorious times. Jack, Vic, Cooler, myself. High level debating what is it, 6 years ago? Amazing.

 

[p123]

Ok, so it looks like Vegeta vs 18 Rd 1 is going to go to Vegeta. It's possible they are the same level, but Vegeta just is a better fighter. Vegeta could have a slight advantage but, I'm leaning with him just out fighting her. This is when 17 is impressed by Vegeta.

18 says that Vegeta is holding back, but I'm not so sure, I think he was holding back on the blast, but not his ability. 18 clearly ramps it up a notch.

After Vegeta loses the second exchange badly, he recovers and the rest of the Z team show up. This is when he says that the rest of the group has no chance. So basically, Vegeta is clearly the strongest of the group and he just looked really bad, he can barely hang on so no one else has a chance.

Round 3, again, Vegeta winning.

Round 4 begins with 18 talking shit, Vegeta going all out and her blocking everything, Vegeta's stamina finally drops and the beginning of the end starts.


Kyo, so you think 18 went all out against Vegeta?

 

[sei'taer]

I've never really understood the uncertainty over 18 vs vegeta. She nonchalantly takes every attack from vegeta with little effort and then when he blows his load she pounds him into the dirt. There's nothing complicated about the fight.

 

[Pyro]

I've never really understood the uncertainty over 18 vs vegeta. She nonchalantly takes every attack from vegeta with little effort and then when he blows his load she pounds him into the dirt. There's nothing complicated about the fight.

It probably comes from the fact that they both admit they've been holding back, and both say they'll fight seriously (well, Vegeta does but I'm not sure if #18 ever truly did), and then Vegeta starts losing stamina quickly.

 

[p123]

Well if she was that much superior, she wouldn't have to take his attacks at all. That's pretty much the point.

 

[Pyro]

Well if she was that much superior, she wouldn't have to take his attacks at all. That's pretty much the point.

You think she would've just tanked all of his attacks?

 

[p123]

I can forgive Round 1. She was stated to be holding back. Herms has her saying she isn't anywhere close to her full power. So that's huge if someone can post that quote. Suggests that she never intended on using her full power anyway.

Round 2 she puts the kibosh on him, that's a 1.1x gap there for sure, perhaps a bit more.

But why regress for Round 3? Vegeta wins round 3, she clearly is being hit against her will and she is surprised by his blast. She couldn't have avoided it.

So why did she let him put his dirty paws on her?

To explain the tank, perhaps Vegeta wasn't going all out yet? Because clearly the next round, she had her hands full. She dismisses him again afterwards, but perhaps she raised her level as well.

 

[SSJ2]

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P11.1
Context: after fighting Vegeta for awhile
No.18: “I haven’t been giving it anywhere near my all either. Can you tell?”


Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after Vegeta continues to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you"


A couple Herms quotes I think are relevant.

 

[Pyro]

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P11.1
Context: after fighting Vegeta for awhile
No.18: “I haven’t been giving it anywhere near my all either. Can you tell?”

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P14.6
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after Vegeta continues to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

 

[SSJ2]

Something I find interesting, is how does 17 know 18 can't handle them all? He has no data on Trunks, and his data on Piccolo and Tenshinhan is incorrect. Where is that certainty coming from? The closest to seeing how strong Trunks was was dodging his blast at the lab, but even that doesn't say much.

 

[p123]

It's a good question, but the statement still stands. 18 cannot take Vegeta and Co. That should stand. Vegeta's comments are probably regarding a one on one situation. They clearly would be useful if they all ganged up on her.

I think 17 knows Vegeta is strong enough that if he has any help, it would be a rough time for 18.

Vegeta wins 2 rounds, 18 wins 2 rounds.

 

[SSJ2]

I agree. Perhaps he has a feeling about Trunks solely because he is a SSJ, and he was just impressed by SSJ Vegeta. P, do you think Trunks and Vegeta can take 18 together, both at full power?

 

[p123]

Probably not. The way 18 tanked Trunks, now that was bad. I don't really understand what's going on here with 18's level of effort and percentage of power. I think the gang needs Piccolo to get the job done, and the others can provide for a decent distraction.

Did she increase her power two times? Did she increase again now that they are jumping in on her?

I kind of feel like she doesn't get serious until Trunks comes after her and then we see her true power, which is beastly. This is a very difficult topic though.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah quite possible. 18 actually looks quite pissed when blocking Trunks' sword, so she may have increased her effort.

 

[p123]

Yea I think we need to have fresh eyes on this fight.

We have given Initial True Form Freeza 3 levels of power. One was stated, the other we assumed by reaction.

1) Freeza's initial power, Vegeta thinks he has somewhat of a chance.
2) Vegeta can't see Freeza, Freeza states he increased his speed a little.
3) No one expects Freeza to be able to take Vegeta's attack head on, then he fucking boots that shit. Everyone is shocked. Vegeta gives up all hope.


Now if we take this approach with the Androids, especially 18 here, things get much more technical. We get real stupid when we have Android talk for some reason. Too many assumed principles. Like Freeza > Piccolo for years! We need fresh eyes here.

18 for sure showed at least 2 levels of power. 1 being not anywhere close to full power. The other, probably not full power either. Why? She was losing, then states she's not impressed. Logic people! Use it!

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, #18 still not being serious against Vegeta until Trunks butt in is a possibility. But if so, why did #18 state she wouldn't hold back anymore? That seems a little pointless if she were still holding back a good deal of power.

Besides, if she held back to Vegeta's level, then can we assume her durability was still the same? After all, Vegeta's attacks did little to nothing to her.

 

[p123]

Well, didn't she say she wasn't anywhere close to her max? She never said she was going to go all out. Just that she was holding back massively.

Vegeta's attacks were effecting her well enough in Round 3. Sure the blast only did cosmetic damage, but the punches were moving her, she wasn't tanking anything in Round 3.