18 vs Vegeta Discussion

[SSJ2]

Because the present ones are a good deal stronger according to Trunks.

 

[p123]

Which means nothing in the context given.

We have Tien freaking cheering on Vegeta on how well he is doing. We have Trunks saying he is fighting on par. Piccolo does not go against these comments, he just states that he is going to be killed because of stamina issues.

Now, here are your options. You can say she has reserves, which is totally possible. But during the actual fight? No, they are close rivals for sure.

 

[Void]

18 thinks Vegeta was powerless against her, and 17 acknowledges that Piccolo is even with him.

 

[p123]

No.18: “He’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!

Piccolo thinks he's stronger than 17, calling his punches weak.

Helpless and powerless are different. Vegeta was helpless. He could hold his own, but he couldn't put any real damage on her, despite being on par with her.

 

[ahill1]

#18 still considers very little of Vegeta, saying she doesn't have to worry about Vegeta or Goku:

And later she wonders if Vegeta pretended to be "weak" in their fight:

Calling him "weak" isn't really a good way to show respect towards someone of equal power. She gave Piccolo props when he showed to be on par with #17. Yet stated nothing of the sort with Vegeta.

Vegeta completely failed to do some sort of damage to #18, what Piccolo was able to do in his battle against #17. Piccolo vs #17 is what a battle of equals (with the stamina being a factor, of course) is supposed to be, with both struggling and bleeding with each other attacks.

#18 after Vegeta's attacks:

#17 after Piccolo's attacks:

Not to mention #17 incentivating the Z warriors to train more and come up with more for them, pretty much implying a trained Vegeta could still not be a menace for them.

Plus, Vegeta considers Cell has an absurdly large chi (a term commonly used by the weaker person, check the strength checker) and yet this same Cell isn't on the androids level as weighted Kamiccolo is.


Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…”
Context: the vanished one is Cell, and the remaining one is Piccolo

Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P8.4-6
No.17: “So why don’t you tell us who’s fighting who, while you’re at it?”
No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”
No.17: “What?! Looks like Doctor Gero screwed up again. Your radar is broken. There’s no power in the world that rivals mine.”

And this same weighted Kamiccolo (who is at 17 and 18's level) is a good deal above Vegeta, who said the power he felt from Kamiccolo is clearly above his.

There's no way Vegeta is close to #18 considering all this imo.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

ahill, that's a nicely detailed post.

Vegeta wouldn't have said everyone is easily surpassing the Super Saiyan if he was at least equal to #18. When Vegeta talked about letting Cell become Perfect, Piccolo said Cell would be far more powerful than the Androids...who he had absolutely no chance against. If Vegeta narrowly lost because of a stamina disadvantage, all of the other statements afterwards make less sense.

Piccolo/Androids

Cell

Super Saiyans

 

[p123]

Very good points laid out. So you would agree that 18 is holding back a lot still? That her actual ability in the fight is much less than what it could be?

Also, while it's clear that 18 has reserves, the actual battle is contested at a level closer than Goku vs Vegeta or Zarbon vs Vegeta. Can we agree on that?

 

[ChulpaBatman]

Vegeta fought well by 18 did not look like she needed to strain herself at all. She may have needed full power to defeat him with ease but she also never struggled with him or was fazed by his attacks. If 18 wanted to I think she could have easily defeated Vegeta. 18 literally blocks all of Vegetas attacks after his energy blast and slowly picks him apart. A rivaling fight is more in the like of Goku and Freeza.

I also think people need to stop using Namek arc Vegeta vs Dodoria/Zarbon fights as any sort of measure in the future arc. Its clear that battle powers and gaps was never something well thought out or cared about. And if they were all it means is that a fighter can decimate someone at a 5% gap if they are rusty or attacks lack amplification and a fighter with a 20% disadvangted can give a decent fight before they eventually lose.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Is it just me? Or is Vegeta rivaling 18? She is barely ahead of him, he is absolutely holding his own and the only reason he lost so devastatingly was that his stamina was dropping with every hit and hers was not. This is bullshit, there's no way 18 is 1.2x Vegeta. Man, the things you learn in Dragonball is endless.

Judging from the fight, i also go with 1.1x a gap or so. The problem is Weighted Kamiccolo being a lot stronger than
Ginger Cell. Of course, Vegeta/18 gap can still be small if you place Ginger Cell and Vegeta at the same ballpark, but
we also have Vegeta's statements about Super Saiyans being outdone ''left and right''. Does that ''left and right'' include
Cell as well? And, if it does include Cell, does he have to be considerably stronger than Vegeta, or can he do with a tiny
advantage?
In the end of the day, it all depends on Vegeta/Ginger Cell gap.

 

[p123]

The only way any of this works is if 18 was holding back a solid chunk of her power, but her effort vs Vegeta was about the same as Vegeta. I'd say 1.1x is far too much. Vegeta is 94-96% of 18 here imo.

Vegeta vs Zarbon, Goku vs Cell, Tien vs Goku (Weighted) are excellent examples of what happens when you are on the edge of rivaling range. Forget about the power levels, just look at he fights.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

So, you're willing to go with Ginger Cell~Vegeta?

 

[p123]

Negative. Cell is clearly a couple of steps ahead of Vegeta. What is suggested is that 18 is holding back a lot of power, even when she says she's not going to hold back. Considering that she said that she wasn't anywhere near her all, I think that fits.

 

[freezamite]

SSJ Vegeta was at 18 levels of power, if not slightly higher considering the fact he could match her even when he got serious after she did. That being said, if he was stronger it would be by a very, very, very slim margin, and of course compared to the android's unlimited energy that could never grant him any advantage.

 

[p123]

Fair enough, the question then becomes, was she going all out. Many sign point to her still having some in the tank.

 

[Pyro]

She was holding back a good chunk of power for sure. You can compare her only two fights in the manga and you'll see a clear deviance when she's actually pushed to a point where she needs to worry about her life. I always go with Vegeta being about 60-70% of her, although Kamiccolo makes it very difficult to work with if I stick with a strict 2x gap for that merger.

 

[Pyro]

#18 still considers very little of Vegeta, saying she doesn't have to worry about Vegeta or Goku:

And later she wonders if Vegeta pretended to be "weak" in their fight:

Calling him "weak" isn't really a good way to show respect towards someone of equal power. She gave Piccolo props when he showed to be on par with #17. Yet stated nothing of the sort with Vegeta.

Vegeta completely failed to do some sort of damage to #18, what Piccolo was able to do in his battle against #17. Piccolo vs #17 is what a battle of equals (with the stamina being a factor, of course) is supposed to be, with both struggling and bleeding with each other attacks.

#18 after Vegeta's attacks:

#17 after Piccolo's attacks:

Not to mention #17 incentivating the Z warriors to train more and come up with more for them, pretty much implying a trained Vegeta could still not be a menace for them.

Plus, Vegeta considers Cell has an absurdly large chi (a term commonly used by the weaker person, check the strength checker) and yet this same Cell isn't on the androids level as weighted Kamiccolo is.


Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…”
Context: the vanished one is Cell, and the remaining one is Piccolo

Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P8.4-6
No.17: “So why don’t you tell us who’s fighting who, while you’re at it?”
No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”
No.17: “What?! Looks like Doctor Gero screwed up again. Your radar is broken. There’s no power in the world that rivals mine.”

And this same weighted Kamiccolo (who is at 17 and 18's level) is a good deal above Vegeta, who said the power he felt from Kamiccolo is clearly above his.

There's no way Vegeta is close to #18 considering all this imo.

Beautiful. Completely agreed.

 

[freezamite]

Fair enough, the question then becomes, was she going all out. Many sign point to her still having some in the tank.

I don't think she had more energy on reserve.
Firstly, she directly states that she is going to fight Vegeta seriously when he asks her to not hold back. Considering the way she is, I don't think she was lying.
And if there was still any doubt, after seeing Vegeta's strength #17 states that #18 wouldn't be able to win if the other z-warriors had helped Vegeta, and considering they already saw Trunks attacking with all his strength and that he was considerably weaker than Vegeta that also affirms that the difference between the saiyan and the android wasn't big in terms of power (Trunks was noticeably weaker than Vegeta, and the androids saw him and knew that).

 

[Kyo]

#18 still considers very little of Vegeta, saying she doesn't have to worry about Vegeta or Goku:

And later she wonders if Vegeta pretended to be "weak" in their fight:

Calling him "weak" isn't really a good way to show respect towards someone of equal power. She gave Piccolo props when he showed to be on par with #17. Yet stated nothing of the sort with Vegeta.

Vegeta completely failed to do some sort of damage to #18, what Piccolo was able to do in his battle against #17. Piccolo vs #17 is what a battle of equals (with the stamina being a factor, of course) is supposed to be, with both struggling and bleeding with each other attacks.

#18 after Vegeta's attacks:

#17 after Piccolo's attacks:

Not to mention #17 incentivating the Z warriors to train more and come up with more for them, pretty much implying a trained Vegeta could still not be a menace for them.

Plus, Vegeta considers Cell has an absurdly large chi (a term commonly used by the weaker person, check the strength checker) and yet this same Cell isn't on the androids level as weighted Kamiccolo is.


Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…”
Context: the vanished one is Cell, and the remaining one is Piccolo

Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P8.4-6
No.17: “So why don’t you tell us who’s fighting who, while you’re at it?”
No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”
No.17: “What?! Looks like Doctor Gero screwed up again. Your radar is broken. There’s no power in the world that rivals mine.”

And this same weighted Kamiccolo (who is at 17 and 18's level) is a good deal above Vegeta, who said the power he felt from Kamiccolo is clearly above his.

There's no way Vegeta is close to #18 considering all this imo.

/r/threadkillers

Lock it up @SuperSaiyan2

 

[p123]

Either way, Vegeta vs 18 is contested at a level much closer than Goku vs Cell/ Vegeta vs Zarbon/Tien vs Goku was.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

#17 said #18 probably couldn't handle them all.
Vegeta said all of them would've been useless against #18.

I go with Vegeta's statement. He knows how strong they all are and requires less guesswork than #17. The only power #17 knows is #18.