22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

[Kyo]

post the pages

 

[p123]

Also, I think Withheld may be right about

Goku (vs Krillen, Initial) > Goku (Vs Chappa)

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, that may be right. Kuririn knew Goku didn't use full power against Chappa, then told Goku to go with everything against him and then was like "darn, weren't you going all out against me?"... but it'd put Kuririn and Yamcha too much ahead of Chappa.

 

[p123]

Which is why Withheld has the interpretation of Goku's ease of defeating Chappa like that being a factor. Not only did he beat him, but he beat him easily.

Perhaps Yamcha and Krillen would have to work really hard to beat Chappa so easily. It's a tricky one. Fucking 22nd Budokai is no joke man.

And we haven't even gotten to the Match Level Debacle. Check my levels again and let me know what you think. Prior to 22nd.

 

[ahill1]

I think that's a good theory, but it would work better if Yamcha and Kuririn were around the level Goku used to beat Chappa. If they were >> the level Goku used against Chappa (which is already like a 83% gap IMO), then I don't see them using so much effort vs Chappa, even if they were at their full level of strength.

Withheld thinks Yamcha and Kuririn could replicate Goku's feats, but they'd have to use full effort for it, right? Doesn't it imply that you can have a nonchalant expression through the fight if you aren't at full power? But we have examples of fighters showed to be struggling (with their facial expressions indicating such) against other foes even when not going all out (e.g Goku base warming up vs warming up Freeza).

 

[p123]

It's a tough one. I think you have to take them both into account. It's tough, a lot of contradictory stuff going here. Roshi vs Tien would be badass, now a moment later, indirectly Roshi can't compete with Goku now? Weird stuff.

What's your take on these issues

1) Chappa vs Yamcha
2) Roshi vs Tien (FP)
3) What's the deal with Match Level Goku

 

[ahill1]

I agree it's a tough issue. It's like if Toriyama is retconning those implications moments later. First we have Yamcha stating he thought nobody could take Chappa this easily, then we have him fighting evenly with initial Tenshinhan, and Goku calling the initial fight amazing. It's clear Yamcha vs Tenshinhan was at a level above what Chappa would be capable of. Maybe Yamcha just overestimated Chappa? I think it's possible... notice how he says: "I didn't think anyone could take out Chappa this easily", it sounds like that is based on what Chappa is known for, he shouldn't be such an easy opponent. It's basically going by reputation, he just didn't realize that someone like Chappa, who's won a tournament without being even touched should be such easy target. But now, that's not so much for them.

This might be like Kuririn not realizing they reached a level far beyond the ordinary and had to be pointed out by Roshi that those Budokai fighters were pretty good in an ordinary level, but not for their eyes.

 

[SSJ2]

post the pages

How about fuck off?

 

[ahill1]

The "overestimation due to reputation" can work here, I guess. Look at Yamcha and co's statements prior to the fight. It's all revolved around how strong Chappa should be, that he has won a Tenkaichi Budokai without being touched. Then, we have Yamcha's comment, which can be seen like this "wow this Chappa guy is supposed to be incredible, having won a tournament easily before and being praised as a God of martial arts... I didn't think a foe with such reputation could be taken out so easily". He may be basically just in complete shock that someone supposedly this incredible would be little compared to them, and he still didn't entertain the idea of himself as well being capable of replicating such feats, which... well, should be possible based on his fight with Tenshinhan and Kuririn's performance against Goku later on.

 

[Kyo]

post the pages

How about fuck off?

accurate tbh

 

[SSJ2]

post the pages

How about fuck off?

accurate tbh

It was for your own good. You need not concern yourself with peasants like ahill.

 

[Kyo]

How about fuck off?

accurate tbh

It was for your own good. You need not concern yourself with peasants like ahill.

Indeed, our time is certainly better spent circlejerking over our superiority on an internet forum

 

[Kyo]

accurate tbh

It was for your own good. You need not concern yourself with peasants like ahill.

Indeed, our time is certainly better spent circlejerking over our superiority on an internet forum

oh wait p does this already

 

[SSJ2]

accurate tbh

It was for your own good. You need not concern yourself with peasants like ahill.

Indeed, our time is certainly better spent circlejerking over our superiority on an internet forum

I was looking back at F.. it's amazing how much we used to discuss Z and shit over PM. It was so long ago I didn't remember the countless conversations we had - Z related or not. Those were fun times.

 

[Pyro]

I wish I was in those convos with you guys.

 

[SSJ2]

We had our share, BOOOOY. You would have laughed at how retarded they were, of course not Kyo, but he was forced to train me. He was the old man who could not play.

 

[Kyo]

I'm no old dictator.

KP is old but still continues to play. Quite admirable, though I don't doubt that he would send us straight to Area S if he so desired

 

[SSJ2]

That's what I told KP

Spoiler

yesterday, but he insisted that he was too old to play. The old dictator needs to give his head a shake, it is not yet time for us to embark on a journey to Area S.

 

[p123]

Very good points ahill. Hey losers, take that shit elsewhere, I can't find anyone to discuss such topics and you fuckers are spamming my shit. Kick rocks.

Anyway. I agree with your analysis. It does feel like he is retconning a bit and you can use rep to explain some parts. But not all. Even Jackie Chun is saying this and we know Jackie can sense ki.

You have to split the differences.

If the saga ended right then and there where King Chappa was defeated, we have a clear chain of events.

Also, let's not pretend that Yamcha and company cannot see how fast Chappa is moving. Tien was just talked about as being not that impressive by Krillen, so they definitely judge the fighters based on speed like we do.

If you see a video of Mike Tyson in his prime doing head movement drills, you don't need a fucking scouter to see that he will fucking kill you and he's crazy fast.

Also, perhaps I've had ki blasts all wrong. Perhaps they have to be vastly superior to do anything to you. Just an odd note.

Also, it's clear Yamcha and Krillen think they are fucked fighting Goku after the King Chappa fight.

Just because Goku plays cheerleader for his boys don't mean much. Chaozu vs Krillen occurred at the same level Tien vs Yamcha started to no fanfare. I think Goku just tries to boost up his boys at times.

 

[ahill1]

You hit the nail man, Roshi is the one who makes those Chappa's statements being explained as reputation a little fishy. Roshi's reactions to Panpoot's defeat and and to King Chappa's defeat are clearly different. He is fearing Goku when Chappa is defeated, saying things might be bad for him, yet against Panpoot he treats it as something natural... he heard what Panpoot is capable of and remembered his name as belonging to an excellent fighter, yet was not surprised after Goku easily defeating him. Even Kuririn, upon seeing some of Panpoot's movements and him destroying the wall still labeled him as "nothing special", yet he didn't say how Chappa-o was below expected... it was all about how Goku was amazing.

But on the other hand we have Yamcha saying he never imagined someone could defeat Chappa this easily, while he should also be able to replicate those feats. This sounds more like he is in kind of denial about the great legendary fighter being nothing special which is cool and all, but the aforementioned stuff goes up against this interpretation.

Also don't forget that Roshi said every one of them (Goku, Kuririn and Yamcha) were strong candidates to winning the tournament, even after seeing Goku taking out Chappa:

Chapter: 115, P14.2-3
Kuririn: “You were watching?!”
Kame-sennin: “Yup! All three of you displayed your progress magnificently! Any one of you may win the top prize this time!”


Well in depth Roshi probably knew Goku had the more chances, but saying all of them may win the tournament while Goku just showcased power considerably superior to both of them seems a little off.

If you see a video of Mike Tyson in his prime doing head movement drills, you don't need a fucking scouter to see that he will fucking kill you and he's crazy fast.

I can do that on table tennins. When seeing a table tennis match I can pretty much say both players level in seconds of playing. Fight... not so much. But considering how Yamcha, Kuririn and co. are so accustomed with fighting (as am I with table tennis), it should be easy for them.