23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Power Discussion

[p123]

Alright, let's hear everyone's view on the scaling of the tournament. One of the harder ones to do, especially with the massive gaps implied. I think people don't realize how much stronger Goku/Piccolo are over their counterparts and how this should definitely be a factor when we head into the 5 year time gap with the scouter numbers. Begin.

 

[SSJ2]

I'll reread this tonight and post my chain.

 

[Void]

I think people don't realize how much stronger Goku/Piccolo are over their counterparts and how this should definitely be a factor when we head into the 5 year time gap with the scouter numbers. Begin.

I think the 23rd has the worst scaling in DB, the feats and statements are all over the fucking place.

Will post a chain later, if that's what you're looking for. I'm sure it will be similar to everyone else's, so are you looking for something more specific?

 

[p123]

Chains, numbers, whatever. Discussion is what I'm looking for. I'll post some thoughts.

1) Just a theory but I feel like Initial Piccolo Junior = Piccolo Daimao. He has a bit of an edge on Krillen, but Krillen is outworking him.

2) Piccolo > Kami > Shen, Kami (in Shen) is able to tell Piccolo is stronger than him even in his own body, even though Piccolo doesn't look otherworldly more powerful in his current state. This reminds me of Krillen vs Jackie Chun at the 21st in the thought.

3) I think Shen's first attack on Piccolo is fucking ridiculous. It's way over what we've seen so far and it's way over Goku's Unweighted ability against Tien. Tien didn't even think Goku was going all out and he considers this level to be beyond comprehension. Huge gap.


People love to discredit the Kami > Popo > Goku gap, but judging by the 23rd, it's fucking massive.

 

[Void]

People love to discredit the Kami > Popo > Goku gap, but judging by the 23rd, it's fucking massive.

It was pretty obvious Kami was way beyond Goku when he finger flicked him lol

 

[p123]

You'd be surprised to how much they want to nerf the shit out of that feat. I had some crazy guy tell me Popo should be 270 and Kami is 310. It's madness.

 

[Pyro]

Don't the guidebook homers say Kami was able to do that based more on skill than power?

 

[p123]

Yep. Essentially start pulling out plays out of the good ol book of "Pure Faggotry". I've heard that oh Goku was tired (he was) it completely diminishes the feat. Kami is a motherfucking GIANT among ants.

 

[SSJ2]

When the gang is signing up, Roshi tells Tenshinhan that he doesn't stand a chance against the kids anymore. Is 22nd Roshi the baseline for all of the finalists, probably Chaozu too?

 

[ahill1]

Let's begin with Tenshinhan vs Goku. Initially they have a pretty even battle, which surprises both the Z warriors and the spectators. Even Piccolo Junior considers that level of speed considerable.

Supporting quotes:

Chapter: 176, P9.3-6
Context: as Tenshinhan and Goku fight
Piccolo: “They’re fast! They’ve got considerable speed.”
Kuririn: “Amazing! They’re both putting up a completely even offensive and defense!”
Yamcha: “Yeah!”
Chi-Chi: “Huh? So you two…could both see that?”
Note: So in other words, Kuririn and Yamcha can see movements too fast for Chi Chi to see.

Chapter: 176, P14.6-7
Context: as Goku fights Tenshinhan
Announcer: “As-is, both contestants are about even! Neither one is giving an inch!”
Kame-sennin: “No, they’re not even. Even though he’s been flying around so much, Goku isn’t out of breath, not even a little bit. Unbelievable.”


Kame-sennin only brings up a difference in stamina, since Goku learned to fight without making unnecessary movements, as part of Kami's training.



Later, we learn that that level of speed is the same as Goku used to defeat King Piccolo three years ago. Tenshinhan said it didn't change at all, unlike his power, which was quite above what Goku had back then.

Supporting quotes


Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”


Then we see that Tenshinhan was hiding his true speed, which is enough to outclass Goku's weighted speed. Tenshinhan does use speed enough to match his level of strength, and that's how fast Goku should be if he weren't off balance due to the weights.

Supporting quotes

Chapter: 177, P3.5, P4.1
Context: after Tenshinhan starts fighting with his true speed
Tenshinhan: “Your eyes are as good as I’d expect! I’m impressed that you can follow my movements despite how fast I’m going. But merely taking in my movements won’t help you!”

Chapter: 177, P8.1-2
Tenshinhan: “So just like I thought, your speed alone hasn’t changed. Son, I’m sorry but I’m going to win this contest! You can follow me with your eyes, but your actual body can’t keep up! This is a critical weakness!”


Chapter: 177, P7.5-6, P8.1-2
Goku: “You’re a lot faster than before…! You’ve been suppressing your speed up until now.”
Tenshinhan: “You’ve figured it out. So just like I thought, your speed alone hasn’t changed. Son, I’m sorry but I’m going to win this contest! You can follow me with your eyes, but your actual body can’t keep up! This is a critical weakness!”
Goku: “I knew you were amazing! I didn’t think you’d get this fast!”


So far, we have: Tenshinhan (strength) ~ Tenshinhan (speed) ~ Goku weighted (strength) >> Goku weighted (speed) ~ Tenshinhan (suppressing speed)


Upon taking his weights off, Goku completely outclasses Tenshinhan, who says Goku is faster than he imagined. Goku is able to take off Tenshinhan's belt without this latter even realizing:

Supporting quotes

Chapter: 178, P4.2
Tenshinhan: “Even with my three eyes, I can’t take in your movements. I can’t call that anything but magnificent…Almost as if you’re possessed…But if I use twelve eyes to remove all blind spots, I’ll definitely be able to see!”



So far, we have: Goku (without weights) >>> Tenshinhan (strength) ~ Tenshinhan (speed) ~ Goku weighted (strength) >> Goku weighted (speed) ~ Tenshinhan (suppressing speed)


Then, we learn Goku was anywhere near his full power. Tenshinhan states Goku didn't use anywhere near his FP to battle him, and that he didn't even see the need to use the KMHMH.

Supporting quote

Chapter: 180, P1.3-4, P2.1
Context: after Goku beats Tenshinhan
Yamcha: “That was close…”
Tenshinhan: “No, it wasn’t…Frankly, his strength was on a different level…To think that he’s improved this much. What’s more, that bastard…it seems that he still hasn’t put out anywhere near his true ability. That’s right…he didn’t even fire a single Kamehameha…It hurts my pride…Just what the hell kind of training has he been doing?...”



Goku (ten's estimations) >>> Goku (without weights) >>> Tenshinhan (strength) ~ Tenshinhan (speed) ~ Goku weighted (strength) >> Goku weighted (speed) ~ Tenshinhan (suppressing speed)

After it, we have the other semi final's match: Shen vs Piccolo Junior. After fighting a bit, Tenshinhan and co. are completely flabbergasted with that level of power... Tenshinhan even states his abilities don't even begin to compare with theirs.

Supporting quotes

Chapter: 181, P1.5-6
Context: as Shen and Piccolo fight
Kame-sennin: “Th…they’re too strong…”
Bulma: “H…how can these two exist…?”
Yamcha: “Da…dammit…So that’s why we couldn’t win.”
Tenshinhan: “There’s no helping it…They far surpass any level ordinarily conceivable.”


Chapter: 182, P6.2
Tenshinhan: “I can tell that he’s a member of the Demon Clan, but that strength of his isn’t ordinary”

Tenshinhan says "they surpass any ordinarily conceivable level", which implies this level is >>> his owns estimations for Goku's full power, considering he just estimated Goku to be at that level... whereas he can't even grasp Shen and Piccolo's strength, kind of what Piccolo said when final form Freeza and base Goku were fighting.

Piccolo Junior and Shen were also fighting evenly, but it's safe to say the former had an edge considering the later statee he couldn't win the fight.

Supporting quote

Chapter: 181, P2.1
Shen: “Da…damn it…To think that he’d have improved this much…Even considering that I’m borrowing a weak human’s body, the gap between our powers is too big…! He’s trained considerably in his own way…”

"The gap between our powers is too big" seems a little fishy considering they were fighting evenly. Unless Shen knew Piccolo was hiding more powers.


Piccolo (suppressed) > Shen >>> Goku (ten's estimations) >>> Goku (without weights) >>> Tenshinhan (strength) ~ Tenshinhan (speed) ~ Goku weighted (strength) >> Goku weighted (speed) ~ Tenshinhan (suppressing speed)


Goku is deemed as the only one having a chance against Piccolo. They begin the fight, and when everyone thought Goku had met his match, they both reveal they were just warming up.

Supporting evidence:

You could even say the level Piccolo begun fighting Goku is already above the one he used against Shen, but I think something like this would have been noted.

Therefore, the overall chain is: Goku (full power) ~ Piccolo Junior (full power) >> Goku (warming up) ~ Piccolo Junior (vs Shen) > Shen >>> Goku (ten's estimations) >>> Goku (without weights) >>> Tenshinhan (strength) ~ Tenshinhan (speed) ~ Goku weighted (strength) >> Goku weighted (speed) ~ Tenshinhan (suppressing speed)


The cry is free

 

[ahill1]

So my post ended this thread?

 

[p123]

Very good breakdown ahill. This is a masterpiece. Should be saved somewhere if these damn mods had any sense.

1) Kami (vs Goku)/ Shen / Piccolo >> Mr. Popo = Goku (Unweighted) >> Goku (vs Popo) = Tien > Goku (vs PD)

You know how I like to make the powers mimic each other, just like we had with Freeza's various powers vs Goku/Vegeta. More or less, clearly Kami > Shen though.

2) Shen saying Piccolo > Kami > Shen ~ Piccolo proves exactly what I was trying to teach you clowns about Jackie FP > Jackie ~ Krillen. I feel vindicated here, it's the same situation. Piccolo has an edge on Shen, but nothing major, Shen can sense that Piccolo has a shit ton more in the bank.

3) You are missing the ultra important Kami line about how he couldn't' see Goku vs Piccolo even with his God Eyes.


I think the question becomes, what's Piccolo's power vs Goku initially vs Shen? I would tend to lean towards Piccolo's power nearing what Kami thought his true potential was. The power that was deemed too great for Kami, is probably his starting point. And then they go even further. I guess we could say this is kind of like Battle Level Goku > Match Level Goku > Roshi situation huh?



I don't like doing 10 paragraph long posts so I'll end it here. Let's focus on one topic at a time and get through them.

 

[p123]

I must say, the 23rd Budokai has one of the most fascinating power breakdowns. This is fun to figure out.

 

[Pyro]

That breakdown helped me a lot, HILL. You done good, son.

 

[ahill1]

I think the question becomes, what's Piccolo's power vs Goku initially vs Shen? I would tend to lean towards Piccolo's power nearing what Kami thought his true potential was. The power that was deemed too great for Kami, is probably his starting point. And then they go even further. I guess we could say this is kind of like Battle Level Goku > Match Level Goku > Roshi situation huh?

I like this line of thought. I've even seen some battle power lists following this as well, but I think if Piccolo started using a level above the one he used against Shen it would be noted by Tenshinhan and co.

 

[p123]

We have to look into this. Here's what I got so far. This should be a good start.


Yamcha/Krillen 120

Tien
~ Initial Speed 135
~ Initial Power/Full Speed 160

Shen

Son Goku
~ Weighted Speed 135
~ Weighted Power 160
~ W/o Weights 240
~ Estimated FP 320


Yamcha and Krillen should be just out of rivaling range of Goku's Weighted Speed imo. Just out of reach. They are damn near rivals though. Smart money is probably on Piccolo starting out at the same power as Piccolo Daimao and Goku starting at the same speed as Goku those years ago.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo Daimao would be like 130 right? Pretty good.


The gap between unweighted Goku (suppressed) and Tenshinhan is even bigger than I imagined. Look at how Tenshinhan deems Goku's speed... he considers it unimaginable and says it's like if Goku were possessed. Wow, that's insane.

 

[p123]

Well hold on a second. Tien also thinks Goku's Power is so far above Goku's Speed. At best, this is a 1.2x gap. So, Tien's words are big and amazing from his perspective, but remember the context here. This could be a situation like Vegeta shitting on Trunks and Goku, and being completely flabbergasted by anyone above himself in the Androids Saga. Sometimes the characters words are exaggerated. We know Tien considered Goku's old power all but perfect and he was able to marginally surpass that. So anything above him, is deemed ridiculous in his mind.

Let's look at the facts here, now that I've read it, I'm a bit concerned that we've actually overrated Goku here.

1) Goku's biggest feat in the fight is literally pull Tien's belt or whatever that shit is, off of him while he wasn't looking. It's a big feat and Tien definitely didn't see it, even with his three eyes, but this could also be performed by slight of hand. Not saying it isn't totally a power implication, it is for sure, but how far we take it, should still be determined.

2) Tien splits into four and Goku has to avoid Tien's beams. He's not deflecting them. Goku jumps up into the air and gets hit and the blast actually hurts him a bit. He sure as hell didn't tank it and let's not forget how shitty Tien's amp most likely is at this point of the story. Yet Tien stated that he held back from it, Roshi states how tough he's made his body, not how much stronger Goku was than the blast.

So we have Tien's suppressed blast being somewhat comparable to Goku. Tien says he will go all out next time and the narrative seems to suggest Goku would indeed be in trouble if he gets hit by it. Goku comes up with a strategy instead of tanking it and moving on because Goku felt he could win at this level, without powering up further, yet the fight is still somewhat challenging.

So Goku looks to fight against Tien's weakness. This is no 1.5x gap. Think about some of the feats that are pulled off when we see a 1.5x gap. You essentially cannot do anything. The fight becomes like a god. We saw what Goku did to the Ginyu Force, do you think if you added another member of equal power, that anything would change? Me either. It's tough because Goku vs Ginyu Force is a standard that doesn't seem to be correlated with very much, but there were certain things that were undeniable there.

We can see that Perfect Cell uses less effort dispatching USSJ Vegeta than when Goku decides to finish Burter. After comparing Goku vs Ginyu Force to Goku vs Tien, there's no way I can put Goku in the same league here, even with the belt feat.

I think we need to lower our expectations here and go with something more along the lines of a 1.25-1.33x gap for Goku. Also consider this, Vegeta vs Reecome right? What kind of effect would Tien's blast have on Goku? What's implied? What did Vegeta's blast due to Reecome? How likely is it that Vegeta's amp blows away Tien's?

The 23rd Budokai is filled with amazing hyperbole. Fitting considering this is what raps up the series at least from this side of the story telling. This was God vs the Devil and then God being usurped and Goku having to fight the Devil. Big time shit. The exaggeration is strong in this part of the series though, which is why we almost see a mini retcon with some of the levels shown in the following saga with the scouter numbers.

 

[p123]

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

Yamcha/Krillen
~ 120

Tien
~ Initial Speed 135
~ Initial Power 160
~ Blast 200
~ Full Power Blast 240

Goku
~ Weighted Speed 135
~ Weighted Power 160
~ W/o Weights 200
~ Estimated FP 240

Shen
~ 300



With those things in mind, I find this to be more accurate. Think about it, a 1.5x gap is what we see with Drum vs Tien, this is not the case here.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I don't think that Shen>>Expected Goku is necessary. Tien wasn't sure how much power Goku was holding back, so,
when it was confirmed he had held back a lot of power, Tien was like ''they're from another dimension''.