50% MSSJ Goku vs Warm Up MSSJ Goku

[ahill1]

That's another reason why the point of "they know Goku probably won't win because he says so" holds water... Like you can see Trunks flat out mentioned what Goku said as a reason of why he shouldn't win.

 

[Kyo]

It is important to note that whenever they talk about how Goku would fare against Cell, his state of mind is at the forefront of the conversation. They focus on two things:

1. Goku can't win
2. But he's so calm

 

[Kyo]

That's another reason why the point of "they know Goku probably won't win because he says so" holds water... Like you can see Trunks flat out mentioned what Goku said as a reason of why he shouldn't win.

If he had reason to doubt Goku, he would doubt Goku. A reason never presented itself. (Or did it?) If it did, he would doubt Goku, as Goku himself was not sure.

 

[p123]

Yes, but also the context of the story isn't that Goku is going to get blown out. Goku is still a good guideline to dictating how strong Cell is. The narrative is that Cell is a bit stronger than Goku. Goku has a chance, he can fight Cell, but he is not going to be able to win.

Cell vs Goku is exactly what the narrative was suggesting. Cell with a decent lead, Goku making it interesting but ultimately failing. That's what we were sold and that should be what the characters are expecting imo.

 

[ahill1]

If he had reason to doubt Goku, he would doubt Goku. A reason never presented itself. (Or did it?) If it did, he would doubt Goku, as Goku himself was not sure.

Yet Trunks cited what Goku said as justification of why Goku shouldn't win? That shows they were going off by what Goku said, even if he didn't put total confidence in what he said. Also, look at how Trunks reacts to it: he is like "is that so?". He clearly accepts what Goku said, be it a pure guess or no.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Some might even think that Goku has probably more reserved power than he actually showed in the Karin place.

 

[Kyo]

Yet he cited what Goku said as justification of why Goku shouldn't win? That shows they were going off by what Goku said, even if he didn't put total confidence in what he said. Also, look at how Trunks reacts to it: he is like "is that so?". He clearly accepts what Goku said, be it a pure guess or no.

"Is that so?" is also a phrase often used to express doubt or surprise. This was before Goku powered up.

In the context of the conversation, Trunks is inquiring about Goku's state of mind, so he calls back to the fact that Goku thinks he can't win, because this is about Goku's state of mind. The fact that he has twisted Goku's word from speculative to definitive is telling. He himself is convinced that Goku is weaker than Cell, else he would not ask Gohan why Goku was acting the way he was in this way.

 

[p123]

Goku's power is so outrageous they have to immediately consider it his full power. However, Piccolo being as smart as he is and knowing Goku as well as he does, gets to thinking as he is in the ROSAT. He has been able to get within this level of power and now he knows Goku all to well to actually think that this level is Goku's maximum. He knows with Goku, he always has a trick up his sleeve. The more he trains and the more he starts seeing his diminishing returns, the more he becomes convinced of his utter uselessness. He has some small hope that is not the case, but at the end of the day, he knows he's trash, even though he's pulled out every last drop of power from his body. He exits the ROSAT and the conversation with Goku begins.

 

[Kyo]

Yes, but also the context of the story isn't that Goku is going to get blown out. Goku is still a good guideline to dictating how strong Cell is. The narrative is that Cell is a bit stronger than Goku. Goku has a chance, he can fight Cell, but he is not going to be able to win.

Cell vs Goku is exactly what the narrative was suggesting. Cell with a decent lead, Goku making it interesting but ultimately failing. That's what we were sold and that should be what the characters are expecting imo.

Considering this, where does Trunks, Vegeta, and Piccolo's conclusion that Goku has more power come in? Or, rather, when?

 

[p123]

It all stems from Piccolo. Piccolo knows Goku the best out of all of them and comes to the conclusion during his time in the ROSAT. Trunks becomes privvy to the information by proxy. He just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Trunks is totally clueless and a complete buffoon. This idiot just last thought he could pump his muscles up and beat Cell. Something Goku figured out in two seconds, Trunks spent a freaking year thinking would work. He's dumb as rocks. If Trunks did not hear this conversation, it's quite possible he exits the ROSAT full of confidence and ready to take on Cell.

 

[ahill1]

"Is that so?" is also a phrase often used to express doubt or surprise. This was before Goku powered up.

Everyone is acting nervous when Goku says he can't win and Piccolo even says that they might use the room again. It seems that they took that as Goku is probably weaker.

Fair point about Goku's state of mind.

He himself is convinced that Goku is weaker than Cell, else he would not ask Gohan why Goku was acting the way he was in this way.

By that logic you are trying to say that 50% Goku is at a level where the "probably doesn't have a chance" holds water. But that isn't true because:

1- Warm up Goku fights evenly with warm up Cell;
2- They were already expecting Cell to have more power than his warming up state. If 50% < warm up Cell they would be thinking Goku would be like trash for Cell, like p already said.

 

[Kyo]

Then Vegeta surpasses Goku's outrageous power, but believes that Goku has more in the tank (though if it were up to him, he'd still come out on top).

Everyone is acting nervous when Goku says he can't win and Piccolo even says that they might use the room again. It seems that they took that as Goku is probably weaker.

Yes.

Fair point about Goku's state of mind.

Indeed.

By that logic you are trying to say that 50% Goku is at a level where the "probably doesn't have a chance" holds water. But that isn't true because:

1- Warm up Goku fights evenly with warm up Cell;
2- They were already expecting Cell to have more power than his warming up state. If 50% < warm up Cell they would be thinking Goku would be like trash for Cell, like p already said.

50% is certainly not < warm up Cell regardless of your stance on him

Trunks thinks Goku will lose--that's all. It's an open and shut case. It doesn't really have anything to do with how the warm up fight turned out.

 

[ahill1]

But why would Trunks be sure Goku would lose upon him showing his 50% at Karin if that power was = Cell?

 

[p123]

Goku will lose, but he's not getting blown out, which is why Goku is the guideline.

 

[ahill1]

Kyo's point is that nobody argues against Goku's line after Goku showed 50% of his powers. But that wouldn't make sense unless:

1- 50% Goku < warm up Cell
2- Or if they think Goku is way below Cell

He brought that point basically to show 50% being >> warm up is doubtful.

 

[Pyro]

But why would Trunks be sure Goku would lose upon him showing his 50% at Karin if that power was = Cell?

Why is that power equal to Cell, boy?

 

[ahill1]

That's what I am asking. If that power was = Cell, then Trunks would still have reason to doubt Goku's words.

 

[Kyo]

If 50% Goku = Base Cell then Goku is losing because Cell > Base Cell, unless he has more power, but that alone isn't necessarily reason enough to dispel that thought

if 50% Goku < Base Cell then they'd think Goku's retarded

If 50% Goku > Base Cell, well, then the question is "by how much?" and "what are they expecting from Cell?"

 

[ahill1]

If 50% Goku = Base Cell then Goku is losing because Cell > Base Cell, unless he has more power, but that alone isn't necessarily reason enough to dispel that thought

if 50% Goku < Base Cell then they'd think Goku's retarded

If 50% Goku > Base Cell, well, then the question is "by how much?" and "what are they expecting from Cell?"

Well, if 50% Goku = base Cell then they would think that Goku's got absolutely no chance considering Cell is >>> warm up Cell, which doesn't sound right.

 

[Pakl]

Goku comes out of the rosat and stays the same until he fights Cell... Hence Goku is in his natural MSSjin state as his design shows... Just because Vegeta doesnt know he was surpassed doesnt mean Goku was weaker... Vegeta is known for his idiocy.. Anyway Goku has no aura vs Cell and looks the same with the same features... Goku post rosat shows three levels...

Natural MSSjin Goku who was suppressed since be existed the rosat...

50% MSSjin Goku as he powers up vs Korrin

His full power