50% MSSJ Goku vs Warm Up MSSJ Goku

[p123]

Well let me ask you a quick question.

Explain to me Vegeta's mind state.

He claims he will be the one to finish the Cell Game, yet secretly he is interested in seeing what power Goku is capable of. We see what Vegeta looks like when he is truly confident in his power, he's a bully and no one can stop him from fighting, meanwhile here, he is acting meek and full of fake bravado.

Please do tell, how Vegeta has been able to come to this mixed up state?

 

[Kyo]

Cell smashed his nuts

 

[p123]

Also, when Goku exits, he becomes the hero instantly. They haven't sensed his full power yet, but he's in command. They are looking at him as their savior. He states that Cell can get much stronger, then goes on to show an outrageous power that shocks everyone.

50% Goku = Base Cell, is just not that impressive at this point. You do realize this right? What kind of narrative do you have to follow to make your logic work? Not logic.

 

[ahill1]

Well never mind that p, it doesn't matter now.

"Can you beat Cell?"

Goku: "Probably not."

"Wtf shit"

Goku powers up -- does their perception on Goku change? I don't think it did.

Why should it change? They already know Cell (real power) >>> Cell (warming up), so if Goku shows a power above 'warming up' Cell it shouldn't change.


@p123 - Because Vegeta probably knows Goku has more powa.

 

[Kyo]

> They haven't sensed his full power yet, but he's in command.

This is more helpful to that narrative than you think. At least 3 people at the Games do not believe that 50% is his best.

 

[Kyo]

Well never mind that p, it doesn't matter now.

"Can you beat Cell?"

Goku: "Probably not."

"Wtf shit"

Goku powers up -- does their perception on Goku change? I don't think it did.

Why should it change? They already know Cell (real power) >>> Cell (warming up), so if Goku shows a power above 'warming up' Cell it shouldn't change.


@p123 - Because Vegeta probably knows Goku has more powa.

What if Goku's power is >>>>> Base Cell's? For p in particular, Goku's power on lookout >>> Buff Cell >> Buff Trunks >> Base Cell; 50% Goku >>>>>>> Base Cell.

 

[Kyo]

Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”

 

[ahill1]

@Kyo - it shouldn't make them doubt Goku's word of "probably can't beat Cell" because they also know Cell has yet to reveal his full power.

Think about it: Goku reveals Cell true power >>> warm up Cell, but not by a set amount. Goku also shows a power >>> warm up... then why would they act like if Goku might have a chance?

 

[p123]

The narrative is that Goku found out something special in the ROSAT that Vegeta and Trunks did not. Goku is on another level. His ability to be in Super Saiyan but without giving off the energy apparently signifies this. The whole crew already accepts Goku as their leader and savior. Vegeta feels the same, but wants to showcase false bravado one last time and Goku absolutely shits on him. The whole crew now knows Goku >> Vegeta. Funny thing here, Goku did sense Grade 2 Vegeta right before closing the door to the ROSAT. This is the kind of shit that makes me hate the Buu Saga, the level of detail required for Goku to accurately know Vegeta's strength and to have the foresight for him to make that comment on Cell and Vegeta's power is tremendous.

 

[p123]

Exactly. I have no problem with 50% Goku = Warm Up Goku if the cast thought Goku vs Cell was pointless and delaying the inevitable. They believe in Goku, that he has a chance, that he may just get it done. This is impossible since Goku has already stated that Cell's real power dwarfs the power he's shown.

People have trouble getting over this shit lol, this is worse than Piccolo (Androids ) > Freeza shit. People could not let go of Freeza being weaker than non fused Piccolo.

Same thing here, people just can't get over this shit. Probably because of how much it bloats the series.

 

[Kyo]

@ahill
He reveals nothing. He speculates. They already knew Cell wasn't at his best. The key word is "probably."

They don't have to act like Goku might have a chance. Although they might've. These people don't have the information that you and I do. They should be in doubt all the time. There's likely a good reason they aren't after certain events occur.

@p123
Goku is king when he exits, easily. There's no contention there. He is also the king on the day of the CG, which is more important.

 

[Kyo]

Bloat is fine man. You're talking to the guy who was on board with Goku/Piccolo's massive advantage over Kami years ago. 50% > Warm up is great. I don't need to be convinced of either side. I was originally a stickler for 50% > Warm up. I find both viable. I'm aware that you don't.

 

[ahill1]

@ahill
He reveals nothing. He speculates. They already knew Cell wasn't at his best. The key word is "probably."

They don't have to act like Goku might have a chance. Although they might've. These people don't have the information that you and I do. They should be in doubt all the time. There's likely a good reason they aren't after certain events occur.

The "probably" is used when he states he "probably" doesn't have a chance. He says he doesn't have an idea how strong Cell could get if he felt like it, which means Warm up Cell =/= Full power Cell.

You've said their perceptions of Goku losing doesn't change when Goku shows his 50%, but that doesn't mean much since Goku has already stated he probably doesn't have a chance... so they'd he already expecting that what Cell showed wasn't his full.

 

[p123]

I wish I could find any logic that 50% Goku = Warm Up Goku. I used to go by it a long time ago. I know it is incorrect. However, it is a damn impossible thing to explain and there is much theory there, but it's sound.

1) The way the crew reacts to Goku's 50% power. Are we honestly thinking they are shitting themselves at a power merely equal to Cell's Base Power here? Really? Just think about this for a second would you? Trunks and Buff Cell have already shown power far stronger than Base Cell's level. But another Base Cell is what makes everyone shit there pants?

2) How could they possibly rely on Goku is 50% Goku = Warm Up Goku. The cast would say, fuck, Goku has no chance, who's next. Instead, they are blown away by Goku's power, completely at a loss of what's going on, confused and unable to process Goku's confidence, yet admittance to being inferior.

I could go on and on, but you are smart enough to figure this shit out and can explain it better than me. So fuck this shit.

 

[Kyo]

The "probably" is used when he states he "probably" doesn't have a chance.

You've said their perceptions of Goku losing doesn't change when Goku shows his 50%, but that doesn't mean much since Goku has already stated he probably doesn't have a chance... so they'd he already expecting that what Cell showed wasn't his full.

Yeah I know.

If Goku powers up and it's super high then people will doubt Goku's speculative word. This is how the brain works. p would argue this point as well.

 

[p123]

Also, if 50% Goku = Warm Up Goku, Goku cannot "probably doesn't have a chance", the crew would think he has zero chance. But that ties into the idea that they assume it's his full power, at least for a little while. That's the hard part.

One thing that's concrete, when Vegeta acknowledges that Goku is his superior, he sure as shit doesn't seem to be considering Goku has even more power.

To make everything make sense, 50% Goku has to be strong enough to possibly be his full power and somewhat close to what Cell's full power could be all of which should blow away the Warm Up level.

 

[ahill1]

The "probably" is used when he states he "probably" doesn't have a chance.

You've said their perceptions of Goku losing doesn't change when Goku shows his 50%, but that doesn't mean much since Goku has already stated he probably doesn't have a chance... so they'd he already expecting that what Cell showed wasn't his full.

Yeah I know.

If Goku powers up and it's super high then people will doubt Goku's speculative word. This is how the brain works. p would argue this point as well.

I don't see how they'd doubt. They would just be expecting Cell to be above whatever Goku showed. Goku has already told them he probably can't beat Cell.

 

[Kyo]

Maybe they do think he has zero chance.

Trunks: “Gohan…do you know what [Goku]’s thinking? Goku’s already said Cell is stronger than he is, and he doesn’t know of any weaknesses [in Cell]…"

 

[Kyo]

The "probably" is used when he states he "probably" doesn't have a chance.

You've said their perceptions of Goku losing doesn't change when Goku shows his 50%, but that doesn't mean much since Goku has already stated he probably doesn't have a chance... so they'd he already expecting that what Cell showed wasn't his full.

Yeah I know.

If Goku powers up and it's super high then people will doubt Goku's speculative word. This is how the brain works. p would argue this point as well.

I don't see how they'd doubt. They would just be expecting Cell to be above whatever Goku showed. Goku has already told them he probably can't beat Cell.

I think you're missing the point because my response to this would be what my previous responses were.

p, explain this part to him.

 

[p123]

Ok, let's change Goku's 50% power.

1) Goku powers up to Base Cell's level.

How does everyone react? They will be impressed by the power no doubt, but it's a pointless, non furthering power. They say wow, he is as strong as Cell is now, but that doesn't help because didn't Goku say that Cell could get way stronger. I guess Goku can get much stronger too, or does Goku have no chance?

2) Goku powers up to full power.

The crew immediately quits, they decide there is no reason to train and they say fuck this shit, I'm a fucking spectator. They still have no hope because Goku says he probably doesn't have a chance, but there is no reason to even try, Goku is ridiculously strong.