5th Form Cooler vs SSj Future Trunks (Debut)

[kriss-]

Please show evidence, that Gohan was talking about suppression.
There is no such statement about Freeza powering up, but that doesn't matter, because that's not what that statement from Gohan means.
Trunks one-shotting a suppressed Freeza would completely ruin the point of that scene.

There is no Trunks(Arrival), Trunks from the Trunks arc. is the same as the one relevant to the Android arc. SSJs.
The feat of beating a suppressed Freeza would be completely irrelevant in the Android arc., yet it's brought up many times.
Yadrat Goku and Trunks are about even-ish in power, yet Goku in the future timeline could beat both Freeza and Cold fighting together.
Logically, Freeza would definitely go all-out against Goku.
Cold states, that whoever can beat Freeza like that, is the strongest in the universe.If he were suppressed, it wouldn't mean anything.
The list goes on.

Mecha Freeza's Ki was read by Gohan and he stated that he gets much stronger, meaning he was suppressed and Organic Freeza's battle power was significantly higher, high enough for Gohan to say that he was 'much' stronger as opposed to just being a little bit stronger.

Mecha Freeza wasn't entirely convinced that he could defeat Goku, but he felt convinced that he was strong enough to go in alone. Cold was brought in as support. So he does not necessarily have to be close to Goku in terms of battle power.

Goku is notorious for holding back and giving people second chances, whereas Trunks intentionally intervened with the sole purpose of murdering Mecha Freeza and King Cold, his statement of not being soft like Son Goku reflects this. Even if he was only slightly stronger than Goku was on Namek, he would still be strong enough to defeat both of them quite easily.

Nothing infers Mecha Freeza increased his battle power and nothing ever will. Therefore it's a reach on your end.

 

[kriss-]

I don't get it. If he was suppressed, then clearly he wasn't at his full power yet.

He stated that he increased in terms of full power when he arrived to Earth, but when Gohan reads his Ki later, he was suppressed to some unspecified level that was lower than Organic Freeza.

Nothing says that he immediately went back up or increased at all.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Or maybe it's because he wasn't fighting at the moment, otherwise Gohan'd say ''He CAN get much stronger''.

Except there is zero evidence Goku held back in his fight with Freeza.
Trunks just told them he won't let them leave and live, like Goku did, not that he wouldn't hold back on them.

Also, if you frankly think Trunks is just around Namek Goku's level, then you think Future Gohan is weaker than Freeza,

 

[kriss-]

Or maybe it's because he wasn't fighting at the moment, otherwise Gohan'd say ''He CAN get much stronger''.

Except there is zero evidence Goku held back in his fight with Freeza.
Trunks just told them he won't let them leave and live, like Goku did, not that he wouldn't hold back on them.

Also, if you frankly think Trunks is just around Namek Goku's level, then you think Future Gohan is weaker than Freeza,

Arguing semantics isn't the same as having actual evidence.

I'll wait until you provide a statement that suggests his battle power increased, otherwise there is nothing to argue about here.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

You entirely ignored my post, countering your argument.

 

[kriss-]

You entirely ignored my post, countering your argument.

No because I'm waiting for evidence.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

I gave you the evidence.
You are interprenting that single statement differently and ignoring the entire point of that scene and every following statement made about that scene.
According to your argument, Freeza can put up a decent fight against Android SSJ Vegeta.

 

[kriss-]

I gave you the evidence.
You are interprenting that single statement differently and ignoring the entire point of that scene and every following statement made about that scene.
According to your argument, Freeza can put up a decent fight against Android SSJ Vegeta.

It's a story. If Toriyama wanted to tell us, the audience, that Freeza powered-up, than he would have done so.

He didn't.

Therefore it's a reach on your end. Because you feel other-wise, the burden of proof lies on you. Now show us where exactly, Mecha Freeza went to full power. I'm tired of arguing with people who have no evidence and argue things like 'Well... according to my personal interpretation of the Manga, it would make more sense this way, contrary to popular belief'.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

And

 

[kriss-]

And he did, when he had Freeza state he powered up.
Let me ask you:What would be the point of Freeza powering up, if he didn't even got to use that power?

What did Mecha Freeza power up in comparison to? Freeza? Check.

What did Gohan say when he read his Ki? It was lower than it was on Namek? Check.

Is Mecha Freeza shown to power-up on panel? Is his Ki noted to have increased at all? Nope. Check.

Therefore: Mecha Freeza (Full Power) > Organic Freeza > Mecha Freeza (vs Trunks)

It's the same situation as Android Saga Goku in comparison Mecha Freeza Saga Saga. He is implied to be much stronger, but we're not shown that he actually was because he never showed his full capabilities on panel, but it's not the same as saying that it wasn't there. Both Goku and Freeza did not access it at the time.

Arguing that either fighter did, still places the burden of proof on you to show us where exactly Android Saga Goku was at full power and where Mecha Freeza Saga was at full power.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Answer the rest of my post.
How can Namek Saga SSJ tier be relevant to Vegeta from the android arc.?

 

[kriss-]

Answer the rest of my post.

If you want to go so hard by statements only, then:
The statement state Trunks is relevant to the Android arc. SSJs.
Feats contradict this. Trunks was one-shotted alongside Piccolo.

The statements treat Trunks' feat as impressive by Goku, Tenshinhan and Kami.
Because he defeated Freeza. But nobody had any idea how powerful Freeza actually was except Gohan and Goku. Yet nothing infers that he was at the same level that he was on Namek, what we do have contradicts it.

It's stated by Cold, that whoever kills Freeza in the way Trunks did, is the strongest in the universe.
Cold believed it was the sword that did the trick. This is stated.

Easy, now counter my previous post.

 

[kriss-]

Answer the rest of my post.
How can Namek Saga SSJ tier be relevant to Vegeta from the android arc.?

He wasn't. He was one-shotted alongside Piccolo, whereas a broken down, battle down Vegeta with a broken arm -whom was hit in the same fashion as Trunks, was able to get back up and keep fighting.

The gap is quite large.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

 

[Tapion]

@Saylé Durability = \ = Power. Vegeta is a lot tougher than Trunks, which explains his feat, but he is not much stronger. If you say otherwise, then you're contradicting yourself due to the fact that you said that "Nappa's durability was important when he fought Goku, not his power" or some shit like that.

 

[kriss-]

They don't, since 17 struck Trunks from behind with both hands.

Nope.

Trunks was knocked out here:

Spoiler

Vegeta wasn't.

Gap is huge.

Because he defeated Freeza. But nobody had any idea how powerful Freeza actually was except Gohan and Goku. Yet nothing infers that he was at the same level that he was on Namek, what we do have contradicts it.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…

This has nothing to do with Mecha Feeeza powering up to full power when he fought Trunks.

Cold believed it was the sword that did the trick. This is stated.

That doesn't change the fact, that he considers a fighter, who killed a suppressed Freeza, the strongest.

Regarding your post:

He believed that it was the sword that defeated him. Implying it had nothing to do with power all along, it was a simple means of trying to get him to join his clan and/or get the sword away from him.

Please follow the context of the story.

Is Mecha Freeza shown to power-up on panel? Is his Ki noted to have increased at all? Nope. Check.

Is fighting ki stated to be different from stading ki?Check.

It's always noted to increase when fighters increase their battle powers. This is what Dragonball Z is all about.

Because it wasn't implied to have increased, it means that it didn't.

He wasn't. He was one-shotted alongside Piccolo, whereas a broken down, battle down Vegeta with a broken arm -whom was hit in the same fashion as Trunks, was able to get back up and keep fighting.

Android 18 and 17 aren't equally strong.Vegeta wasn't touched once by 17.

They are generally close in power. Piccolo survived two hits, Trunks survived two hits.

Vegeta survived for two chapters and was hit by Android 17 once, alongside Trunks but he kept fighting.

Gap is huge.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Gap is huge.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Trunks' stamina dropped considerable from 17's blow.

Goku can sense Trunks' ki.He could tell it was lower than his on Namek.

The part about Trunks being the strongest is uncontradicted, so it remains true.

It's not at all.The Z-Fighters don't state Gohan's SSJ2 ki increased when Cell struck him.

No, they aren't close in power.17 is so much stronger, that Kamiccolo can rival him and 18 at the same time.

Piccolo survived a direct hit from 17, while Trunks got hit in the back from 17.

Vegeta was never touched by 17.