...

[p123]

Yea I don't necessarily have a problem either way, but sometimes I think we make too big of a deal about every little thing, especially in DB where skill is more apparent.

Yea, I'm not going to work on it for now, maybe tomorrow I can do a little. I think this list I'm really going to focus on some different kind of shit than I'm used to. Using Gohan as a Rage boost and shit like that.

That will have some massive effects as well. I think that maybe I will actually be able to use a 2x boost for Super Saiyan 2 with this rage boost logic, who knows.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think Oozaru Goku > Gohan is a must. Right before Gohan going back to the other world, Baba said to him train diligently iirc. He could very well have trained in the afterlife. And I have pretty much the feeling that both Goku and Gohan were way stronger than Roshi. Roshi couldn't even see Goku's movement when this latter one-shotted Akkuman and said he was surpassed before admitting he didn't think Goku got so strong.

Even so, I find relatively easy to have Oozaru Goku > Gohan when making power levels list, never had an issue with it, even if this isn't a must.

Besides, how strong were Roshi and Gohan when they fought? Roshi stated that not even Gohan could go as far as Goku, so I'd see Goku (21st Budokai)-Gohan (fighting Roshi)-Roshi at the same power level, so maybe Roshi fought Son Gohan when he was already old? Otherwise, they should be able to blew 21st Budokai Goku out of the water, since not even 22nd Roshi has caught up to his young self.


As for Saiyan Gohan's rage boost, I only see it as a thing in the Boo saga. Gohan's rage boost on the Cell Games was only his SSJ2 imo.

 

[p123]

I was talking about Roshi fighting Gohan prior to his death, not at Baba's. Gohan is clearly Roshi's superior at Baba's.

If Gohan can't tap into his rage boost anymore, it kind of defeats the purpose of Gohan. Gohan is supposed to be unlimited potential accessed through rage, period.

Forms are irrelevant to Gohan, his anger is what brings out his power, not a mere transformation. The transformation is a supplemental part of his power, not the end all be all.

 

[ahill1]

Well, you said it'd be a strange situation if Roshi jumped in Gohan and Goku and Gohan manhandled him, so I got confused.

How strong was Gohan when he fought Roshi and this latter had to use his special technique? At 21st Budokai Goku's level?

The SSJ2 was unlocked by Gohan's rage, I don't see it being as something on top of SSJ2. The same way the SSJ was unlocked by Goku's rage.

 

[p123]

Well I doubt the two old men fought each other. They probably fought for real when Gohan had completed his training under Roshi or somewhere much closer to their primes.

My point being, there shouldn't be any period of time where Gohan can beat Roshi, while they are both alive.

Goku unlocked a transformation through rage. Gohan unlocked a transformation through rage, but he also pushes his power beyond his normal limits through being enraged. Goku can't do that.

The only people in the manga who increase their power through rage is Fat Buu and Gohan.

 

[ahill1]

But Roshi more or less implied Gohan was ~ 21st Budokai Goku, right? That'd be pretty strange if Gohan fought a Roshi close to his prime, since we know prime Roshi > 22nd Budokai Roshi.

So SSJ2 was just a byproduct of Gohan's rage? I don't know, it seems Gohan enranged providing the same boost as the SSJ2 is pretty solid with the Cell saga. What about 25th Tournament Gohan? Just his SSJ2 there?

 

[p123]

I don't know, I'd like to think Gohan was able to contend somewhat with Prime Roshi. Roshi at 21st is a feeble version of himself, nowhere near respectable compared to Roshi in his prime. But it's possible he could be, but then why the massive increases in the after life? How come Roshi isn't going crazy about Gohan's new god like power?

The way you word it doesn't fit my narrative. Gohan's power and rage unlock the transformation and his rage further boosts his power is how I would put it. He is controlling his anger here and unleashing it at the height of his power. I wouldn't expect Base Gohan or Super Saiyan Gohan to be anymore powerful.

Something like this...

Base Gohan 10
Super Saiyan Gohan 500
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan 1,000
Super Saiyan 2 Enraged Gohan 1,500

Something like that.

 

[ahill1]

I don't know, I'd like to think Gohan was able to contend somewhat with Prime Roshi. Roshi at 21st is a feeble version of himself, nowhere near respectable compared to Roshi in his prime. But it's possible he could be, but then why the massive increases in the after life? How come Roshi isn't going crazy about Gohan's new god like power?

So Gohan (fighting Roshi) >> 21st Budokai Goku? Because if we are talking about Gohan fighting Roshi in his prime and forcing him to pull off his most powerful technique, then 21st Goku wouldn't have a chance against him.

The way you word it doesn't fit my narrative. Gohan's power and rage unlock the transformation and his rage further boosts his power is how I would put it. He is controlling his anger here and unleashing it at the height of his power. I wouldn't expect Base Gohan or Super Saiyan Gohan to be anymore powerful.

At the 25th Tournament, was Gohan SSJ2 also powered up by anger?

I'd like to see your full numbers then.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Farmer- 0.05
Tailed Goku- 1
Bear Thief- 0.66
Pterodactyl- 0.5
Yamcha- 0.9
Tailless Goku- 0.8
Krillin- 0.64

 

[p123]

Do you use those numbers so you can use the scouter numbers?

 

[Kyo]

scouters measured in thousands, raditz never read the instruction manual

 

[p123]

I don't think we should use the scouter numbers as anything more than a basis for how to work the system. Even with his own given scouter numbers, they don't really fit from a logical standpoint.

They can be heavily improved upon, even the ones he gave.

 

[ahill1]

Freeza (1st form) 530,000
Gohan (enranged) 1,000,000
Freeza 2nd form (initial) 1,060,000
Freeza 2nd form (powered up) 1,300,000
Piccolo (weighted) 1,350,000
Freeza 2nd form (full power) 1,590,000
Piccolo (w/o weights) 1,687,500
Gohan (Zenkai) 1,000,000
~Enranged + Masenko 2,150,000
Freeza 3rd form 2,250,000
Vegeta (Zenkai) 3,375,000
Freeza final form (initial) 3,800,000
Freeza final form (speed up) 5,300,000
~kicking Vegeta's blast 7,700,000
Freeza final form (underestimating Goku) 3,800,000
Goku base (initial/warming up) 5,000,000
Freeza final form (warming up) 5,300,000
Goku base (warm up over/full power) 7,000,000
Freeza (non hands) 7,700,000

 

[freezamite]

I don't think we should use the scouter numbers as anything more than a basis for how to work the system. Even with his own given scouter numbers, they don't really fit from a logical standpoint.

They can be heavily improved upon, even the ones he gave.

If the scoutter numbers are no longer valid (the only numbers that wouldn't match are the first ones given in the Raditz saga) are you insinuating that from now on you're a better authority when it comes to dragon ball than the manga of dragon ball itself?

 

[p123]

In terms of power levels, without a doubt.

 

[Animelover5487]

BODB levels?

Goku (Tail) = 25

- Untailed = 20


Yamcha = 22.5

Kuririn = 16

Chi-Chi = 15

Dinosaur = 13

Bear Bandit = 12.5

Spopovich = 10

Videl = 8

Mr. Satan = 7

Farmer = 5

 

[p123]

Meh, I can't be bothered to do them right now, maybe eventually.

 

[Kyo]

fuck you fam lazy ass shit

 

[p123]

Getting back to work.

 

[SSJ2]

Your levels look good. I think you could argue for SSJ Trunks @ Freeza being even higher considering he told both Freeza and Cold to come at him at full power, and he was confident to finish it in seconds. I think 550,000,000 could work better.