Analyzing different Kid Buu's possibilities (manga only)

[Natasha Romanoff]

If you don't have anything to add to this discussion, please absent from comment. I've been watching Kid Buu's appearance from his rebirthing to his death and have noted many different and interesting things, here are just a few ideas I want to share with all of you:


Possibility #1: Kid Buu's ki didn't decrease from Buff Buu and Goku and Vegeta were mocking at his size


Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314),P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Vegeta: "Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!"
Goku: "We did it! This way, we may be able to manage something."


This idea is supported by the fact that Toriyama usually tends to be more specific when it comes to a power decrease of a character, of course, Vegeta's line obbey to mocking his appearance and has nothing to do with a power decreasing... Here are just a few examples:

Spoiler: Goku stating Gohan's ki decreasing

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P10.2
Context: after fourth form Freeza beats up on Vegeta
Goku: "Vegeta's ki keep getting smaller...even though he was supposed to have gotten outrageously stronger...Is Freeza that strong...?!"


Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P12.1
Context: after Cell regenerates
Goku: "...But even your ki fell quite a bit from that."

It's also stated that Vegeta understimated Kid Buu:

Spoiler: Vegeta understimates Kid Buu

Possibility #2: Kid Buu's ki decreased after Buff Buu

Spoiler: Goku stating he could've beaten Fat Buu

This is supported by the fact that Goku initially thought that Kid Buu was either Fat Buu's equal or even weaker, that why Vegeta wouldn't get a turn.


Estimated Kid Buu =< Fat Buu < SSJ3 Goku < Super Buu < Buff Buu


When it comes to the idea that SSJ3 Goku at full might could beat Kid Buu, as both Goku and Vegeta agreed:

Spoiler: Goku and Vegeta saying SSJ3 at full ki can wipe out Kid Buu

We also have this:


Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”


Goku considers that Gotenks and Gohan could only fight Kid Buu.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320) P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: "Hey! So it was the use of the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it's no use! Against Boo, no matter how much gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings..."
Vegeta: "I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsability every now and then...! It won't just be a little bit. We'll gather ki from right up to their limits!"

The classical Genkidama that gathered a little bit of genki was referenced, but they decided to choose a different method; gathering everyone's genki from right up to their limits. Even after Gohan donates all of his ki is said to not be enough:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320) P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki Dama
Goku: "Oh, it's here, it's already huge...! This is Gohan and others' ki!"
Vegeta: "...Bu-but it's not complete yet...Wh-why...?!"

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321) P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki Dama
Goku: "Hey! Probably this isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are you doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!"

Therefore the possibilities we have basing on this:
Possibility #1: SSJ3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < Kid Buu = SSJ3 Goku
Possibility #2: SSJ3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < Kid Buu <= SSJ3 Goku
Possibility #3: Kid Buu was just using a small portion of his power and Gotenks and Gohan are still stronger than Goku
Possibility #4: Goku and Vegeta were wrong in their judgment

This line make emphasis that Goku was weaker as an SSJ3 against Kid Buu, and that he wants to make stronger:

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3
Context: after Polunga restores Goku’s stamina and he’s about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama
Goku: “…You’re amazin’. You hung in there really well all on your own…This time, be reborn as a good guy…I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waitin'…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”

Just basing on everything we have, I think the only absolutes we have are:
SSJ2 Vegeta < Good Buu < Fat Buu < SSJ3 Goku < Kid Buu < Gogeta < Vegetto

Well, guys that would be everything about this, hope you enjoyed reading this :3

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@FeatsofPower
@GreatSaiyaman123
@Animelover5487

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku saying he’ll be stronger for the rematch definitely sounds like he was weaker than Boo before. In the fight itself Goku maintains that he could kill Boo if SSJ3 had better stamina though, even when he admits to underestimating him.

Goku and Vegeta don’t explicitly mention Kid Boo’s Ki, but I don’t think they’d have mocked him if he were as strong as ever. Specially Goku, who is by no means an arrogant character. I think it’s also worth pointing out Goku says he’s ok with fighting Boo alone since Boo isn’t merged either.

Spoiler

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

I don’t think there’s a explicitly statement for Kid Boo’s power diminishing (though the fusion one is as close as it gets), but that’s a convenience at best and a poor attempt at ambiguity at worst. Goku bringing up Gohan and Gotenks is a reminder that they’re still valid options, it’s just that

 

[Hector]

Welcome back to the forum, Tosh.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Goku saying he’ll be stronger for the rematch definitely sounds like he was weaker than Boo before. In the fight itself Goku maintains that he could kill Boo if SSJ3 had better stamina though, even when he admits to underestimating him.

Actually, now that I've been thinking about it, Goku's line is pretty solid considering that he thought that Vegetto would have ended him up in one blast.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he need to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: "Dammit~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. ...Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!."

Also, it's worth mentioning that Gohan's genki given to it's very limits wasn't enough for Kid Buu, so perhaps is possible that he was just using a small portion of his power.

Goku and Vegeta don’t explicitly mention Kid Boo’s Ki, but I don’t think they’d have mocked him if he were as strong as ever. Specially Goku, who is by no means an arrogant character. I think it’s also worth pointing out Goku says he’s ok with fighting Boo alone since Boo isn’t merged either.

Spoiler

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

I don’t think there’s a explicitly statement for Kid Boo’s power diminishing (though the fusion one is as close as it gets), but that’s a convenience at best and a poor attempt at ambiguity at worst. Goku bringing up Gohan and Gotenks is a reminder that they’re still valid options, it’s just that

Even then, it's implied that Goku is learning about Saiyan pride by Vegeta himself in the quote you've given. But, Goku not only regretted not have used the Potara, but he also regretted every time he had the chance to do so.

Spoiler: Goku regretting

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.1
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for awhile
Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”

I think the strongest quote when it comes to a ki diminishing is when Goku compare him with Fat Buu, even though that was a concept that was actually disproven.

Even though, I think that Goku suggesting Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu isn't an statement that indicates his superiority towards them, it's certainly far from meaning that either one of them could one-shot him, the manga isn't clear on the topic if they would've succeded or not.

Welcome back to the forum, Tosh.

Sorry, I have not the slightest idea of who that is.

 

[SIAD]

I have: Kid Boo (Anime) >>>> Gohan Boo > Gotenks Boo >> Super Boo >>>> Kid Boo (Manga) > Fat Boo > Evil Boo > Mr. Boo.

Maybe this can be of use for you:

Empty

Gone

dbzeta.net

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Also, it's worth mentioning that Gohan's genki given to it's very limits wasn't enough for Kid Buu, so perhaps is possible that he was just using a small portion of his power.

Goku says Vegeta wasn't revived at full power, so most likely Gohan wasn't either.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P5.3
Context: after Vegeta says he’ll hold off Boo again, so Goku can prepare the Genki-Dama
Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

Even then, it's implied that Goku is learning about Saiyan pride by Vegeta himself in the quote you've given. But, Goku not only regretted not have used the Potara, but he also regretted every time he had the chance to do so.

I wouldn't say "learning" since Goku's always been like this and Vegeta knows it. Back in the Cell Games Vegeta knew Goku wouldn't let the others gang up on Cell to help him. Super Boo is the only exception ever, and if Goku and Vegeta suddenly aren't insecure about fighting Boo anymore it's clear he's not as strong anymore.

Even though, I think that Goku suggesting Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu isn't an statement that indicates his superiority towards them, it's certainly far from meaning that either one of them could one-shot him, the manga isn't clear on the topic if they would've succeded or not.

Definitely not, the manga was a bit ambiguous about whether they would even fight alone or together. Given the context I think AT is explaining why they're going to go the more risky option though.

Sorry, I have not the slightest idea of who that is.

A guy who really liked making threads like these.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Goku says Vegeta wasn't revived at full power, so most likely Gohan wasn't either.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P5.3
Context: after Vegeta says he’ll hold off Boo again, so Goku can prepare the Genki-Dama
Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

Even if they resurrect being weaker than usual, I highly doubt they resurrect being quite weak. Piccolo when resurrected back on Namek doesn't seemed to have those negative effects, in this case, after Freeza incident, Dragon Balls were upgraded, no reason as to why they would resurrect being less powerful than usual.

Vegeta's case explains alone, he received a beatdown by Kid Buu's hand and never had the opportunity to heal himself, that's why he didn't even turn into a SSJ this time.

I wouldn't say "learning" since Goku's always been like this and Vegeta knows it. Back in the Cell Games Vegeta knew Goku wouldn't let the others gang up on Cell to help him. Super Boo is the only exception ever, and if Goku and Vegeta suddenly aren't insecure about fighting Boo anymore it's clear he's not as strong anymore.

Even then, Goku regretted his decision and was willing to help Gohan until Cell went to Krillin and quit him the senzus. I think that from Goku stating he is no match for Base Super Buu and willing to permanently fuse to defeat him to Kid Buu's incident offer far two different narratives. Even then, Goku and Vegeta's predictions were too optimistical.

Definitely not, the manga was a bit ambiguous about whether they would even fight alone or together. Given the context I think AT is explaining why they're going to go the more risky option though.

Gotenks and Gohan are mentioned in the same paragraph. What are you implying with the last paragraph?

A guy who really liked making threads like these.

Lol >.<

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I have: Kid Boo (Anime) >>>> Gohan Boo > Gotenks Boo >> Super Boo >>>> Kid Boo (Manga) > Fat Boo > Evil Boo > Mr. Boo.

Maybe this can be of use for you:

Empty

Gone

dbzeta.net

Well, I don't take into account the anime due to the exaggerations Toei oftenly do. Even then, I would like that you explained your own reasoning behind Kid Buu < Super Buu in the manga.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku says Vegeta wasn't revived at full power, so most likely Gohan wasn't either.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P5.3
Context: after Vegeta says he’ll hold off Boo again, so Goku can prepare the Genki-Dama
Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

Something seems off about this.

 

[SIAD]

Well, I don't take into account the anime due to the exaggerations Toei oftenly do. Even then, I would like that you explained your own reasoning behind Kid Buu < Super Buu in the manga.

Tomorrow I will read that part of the Manga again.

 

[Goku9001]

I think the fact that SSJ3 Goku even believes he has a shot in defeating him even after fighting him means that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu where Goku wanted nothing to do with him unless he fused with Vegeta.

 

[Yoshi]

Goku and Vegeta should have resorted to the fusion dance to defeat Kid Boo after SSJ3 Goku became Base Goku.

 

[Papasmurf]

I don't think a heavily weakened base Gogeta would've been enough.

 

[Goku9001]

Goku and Vegeta should have resorted to the fusion dance to defeat Kid Boo after SSJ3 Goku became Base Goku.

Nah. Would've been really anticlimactic compared to what we got.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku and Vegeta should have resorted to the fusion dance to defeat Kid Boo after SSJ3 Goku became Base Goku.

There's no real time to fuse. Vegeta doesn't know fusion.

 

[Papasmurf]

There's no real time to fuse. Vegeta doesn't know fusion.

Vegeta was half dead from the beating Kid Boo gave him and Goku was drained as a lake in a drought. Gogeta would be heavily weakened even if they had fused.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Vegeta was half dead from the beating Kid Boo gave him and Goku was drained as a lake in a drought. Gogeta would be heavily weakened even if they had fused.

Agreed, but even if they were full power, they didn't have time to fuse. Both against Janemba and Broly, they went to a secluded place to fuse, and messed up twice.

It wouldn't have worked against Kid Buu, or Buuhan.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I think the fact that SSJ3 Goku even believes he has a shot in defeating him even after fighting him means that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu where Goku wanted nothing to do with him unless he fused with Vegeta.

Kid Buu wasn't taking seriously Goku and Vegeta's plan of SSJ3, and was actually mocking both of the saiyans:

Spoiler

Unlike with the Genkidama, in which he clearly shows signs of being worried and concerned:

Spoiler

Kid Buu wasn't able to stop the Genkidama initially, meaning that whatever level of effort he was using against SSJ3 Goku wasn't good enough to do anything against the Genkidama:

Spoiler

Then, Kid Buu is shown to be able to retain it (regardless or how Goku hadn't stamina to push it back is clearly better than before):

Spoiler

This also fall in line with Goku's desire to get stronger in a rematch against Kid Buu.

Kid Buu (vs Goku) = SSJ3 Goku < Kid Buu (vs Genkidama)

So, no by no means there is evidence that Kid was weaker than Super.

Also Goku's willingness to fight Kid Buu, but not wanting to fight Super Buu is one of the claims that makes less sense:

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P7.5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Spoiler: Goku challenging Super Buu

 

[Goku9001]

Kid Buu wasn't taking seriously Goku and Vegeta's plan of SSJ3, and was actually mocking both of the saiyans:

Spoiler

View attachment 1652

Unlike with the Genkidama, in which he clearly shows signs of being worried and concerned:

Spoiler

View attachment 1653View attachment 1654

Kid Buu wasn't able to stop the Genkidama initially, meaning that whatever level of effort he was using against SSJ3 Goku wasn't good enough to do anything against the Genkidama:

Spoiler

View attachment 1655View attachment 1656

Then, Kid Buu is shown to be able to retain it (regardless or how Goku hadn't stamina to push it back is clearly better than before):

Spoiler

View attachment 1657View attachment 1658
View attachment 1659

This also fall in line with Goku's desire to get stronger in a rematch against Kid Buu.

Kid Buu (vs Goku) = SSJ3 Goku < Kid Buu (vs Genkidama)

So, no by no means there is evidence that Kid was weaker than Super.

Also Goku's willingness to fight Kid Buu, but not wanting to fight Super Buu is one of the claims that makes less sense:

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P7.5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Spoiler: Goku challenging Super Buu

View attachment 1660

Sure. Goku was no longer a threat to Kid Buu at that point. Nothing contradicts the idea that Goku could kill Kid Buu with a Full Power blast.