Androids saga breakdown

[ahill1]

Vegeta SSJ (FP) >= Goku SSJ (FP) > Trunks SSJ >> Piccolo >> 20 (post absorptions) ~ Vegeta (post ki drained) >> 19 (post absorptions) > SSJ sick Goku > 20 (pre) ~ Goku SSJ (Mecha saga) > 19 (pre) > Vegeta (post BBA) ~ Trunks SSJ (Mecha saga).

Agree or disagree?

The most difficult think is making Vegeta (post BBA) lower than 20 (pre)? I know Piccolo's quote implies the main reason of Vegeta's lack of power was 19's absorptions, but it doesn't fit well with the history, unless you think 20 (pre) > 19 (post).

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta may have thought he couldn't beat 20 without using ki. He could still be ahead of 20.

 

[ahill1]

But even Piccolo said Vegeta would have lost had he fought against 20.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It looks good.

 

[ahill1]

It looks good.

Thanks. I'm only a bit confused on the #19 vs #20 stuff. #19 (post) vs #20 (post) - who do you think was stronger?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I guess it comes down to the energy and your starting point between the two. Lets look at it:

We already know #20's statement: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

So he starts out stronger, but is the difference huge?

For #19:
Super Saiyan Goku's KMH=“Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before!
Weakened Goku's energy= “You’re so greedy…Even though you sucked so much energy out of Son Goku, and have raised your absolute power…”
Super Saiyan Vegeta's energy=“You sucked out a lot, but now you can’t do that anymore…”

For #20:
Yamcha=“At any rate, we’ll be able to obtain a large amount of energy.”
Super Saiyan Vegeta's Chi-blast=“Damn it all! He’s quicker than I thought…!”
Piccolo's energy=“Don’t interfere, he says…Kukkukkuh…Alright, if I drain [Piccolo]'s energy again, then [I’ll win] against Vegeta…”
Piccolo's revelation:“Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

To me, it looks like #19 got a lot more significant energy than #20 did. I think Super Saiyan Vegeta's energy made #19 a lot more powerful, but he never had the opportunity to utilize it. Personally, I could Post #19>Post #20, though I probably should read that part again.

 

[kriss-]

It should be obvious that Android 19 is stronger than Android 20, come on! He went up against Vegeta whereas Gero was effortlessly being destroyed by Piccolo.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Android arc is mess like Super shit.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Vegeta SSJ (FP) >= Goku SSJ (FP) > Trunks SSJ >> Piccolo >> 20 (post absorptions) ~ Vegeta (post ki drained) >> 19 (post absorptions) > SSJ sick Goku > 20 (pre) ~ Goku SSJ (Mecha saga) > 19 (pre) > Vegeta (post BBA) ~ Trunks SSJ (Mecha saga).

Agree or disagree?

The most difficult think is making Vegeta (post BBA) lower than 20 (pre)? I know Piccolo's quote implies the main reason of Vegeta's lack of power was 19's absorptions, but it doesn't fit well with the history, unless you think 20 (pre) > 19 (post).

SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Goku>SSJ Trunks>>>>Piccolo>>Sick SSJ Goku>19(Post absorbtions)=Vegeta(drained ki)>Dr.Gero(Post absorbtions)>Dr.Gero>Vegeta (Post BBA)>19

 

[ahill1]

@Evil Vegeta

Thanks for the analysis.

I think when Piccolo said the energy #20 absorbed was "nothing", he could be referring that's nothing compared to his full power or perhaps "nothing" as it wouldn't make a difference in the battle.

Given #20's noticeably speed increase after absorbing Vegeta's blast, I'd say it was something considerably.

Besides, there's Vegeta saying #19 (post) wasn't as bad as the rumors, while Piccolo was pondering out the possibility of #20 (post) being one of the real Androids.

Also, what do you think of Vegeta (post BBA) being implied to be < Gero (pre), despite ripping off #19's (post) head?

@Saylé

Vegeta at #19 (post) - "You are not as bad as the rumors"
Piccolo at #20 (post) - "Am I too strong?"


@GokhanDBZfan

I don't agree with Trunks being THAT stronger than Piccolo. Sure, he is stronger, but there's no need for such a gap imo.

I think #19 (post Absorptions) should be at least equal to initial sick Goku, since Gero said that #19 was still too much for Vegeta, whom I doubt he expected to be weaker than Goku.

Do you think #19 lost power by being beat up by Vegeta? If you don't, then Vegeta (post ki drained) should be stronger than #19.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

The Super Saiyans are treated as to be in a league of their own and Piccolo might not even be stronger than Freeza.

HIs calculations probably expected Vegeta to be weaker than Goku, since it was that way the last time he saw their strength.

No, it's just that Vegeta lost a lot of ki from getting his ki absorbed and Dr.Gero should be weaker than 19 at that moment, yet strong enough to beat Vegeta.
Really, Vegeta doesn't need to be stronger than 19 to fry the fleeing android from the behind him, after he ripped off his hands, since 19 couldn't defend himself.

 

[ahill1]

Frankly speaking, Piccolo being weaker than Freeza is ridiculous. He should be able to crush Freeza like he did with the Saibaiman.

Vegeta was only weaker than Kkx3 Goku, who could not last it for too long. Oozaru Vegeta was way stronger than Goku, and the latter said more than once Vegeta was stronger than him IIRC.

Well, you still have Vegeta (post ki drained) > #20. Only after the BBA you have Vegeta losing to him. Even while losing his ki, Vegeta was able to rip out #19's hands.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, I see #20 being more than enough to stomp post Big Bang Attack based on what Piccolo said. Vegeta had to use a lot of his effort to tear his arms off before powering-up just to utilize all of his energy to finish #19 with the attack. I think his energy would've been pretty low at that point.

 

[ahill1]

Does not this imply #20 (pre) > #19 (post)?

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Frankly speaking, Piccolo being weaker than Freeza is ridiculous. He should be able to crush Freeza like he did with the Saibaiman.

Vegeta was only weaker than Kkx3 Goku, who could not last it for too long. Oozaru Vegeta was way stronger than Goku, and the latter said more than once Vegeta was stronger than him IIRC.

Well, you still have Vegeta (post ki drained) > #20. Only after the BBA you have Vegeta losing to him. Even while losing his ki, Vegeta was able to rip out #19's hands.

There is nothing supporting that and Kami and Tenshinhan's quotes imply otherwise.

Dr.Gero doesn't understand ki, it's possible he thought Goku stay in the Kaioken ''state''.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Frankly speaking, Piccolo being weaker than Freeza is ridiculous. He should be able to crush Freeza like he did with the Saibaiman.

Vegeta was only weaker than Kkx3 Goku, who could not last it for too long. Oozaru Vegeta was way stronger than Goku, and the latter said more than once Vegeta was stronger than him IIRC.

Well, you still have Vegeta (post ki drained) > #20. Only after the BBA you have Vegeta losing to him. Even while losing his ki, Vegeta was able to rip out #19's hands.

There is nothing supporting that and Kami and Tenshinhan's quotes imply otherwise.

Dr.Gero doesn't understand ki, it's possible he thought Goku stay in the Kaioken ''state''.

Piccolo is confident in himself and Tenshinhan even says both Piccolo and Vegeta powered-up tremendously or something to that effect. Piccolo might not be in the Super-Saiyan's league, but he's definitely leagues above Freeza.

Even Kuririn says Piccolo fused with Kami is so high, because Piccolo himself became so high.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Does not this imply #20 (pre) > #19 (post)?

I don't think it does. He had to use all of his power to blow #19 to bits. Everyone reacted to his power-up when he was doing the attack, and we all know amplified attacks are often well beyond their power. Just look at how #20 reacts to it and how quickly he backs down when Vegeta tells him he's going to get him next. I think the Big Bang Attack would've blew away an armless #20 as well.

Vegeta's energy was gone. He didn't transform until he ate a senzu.

 

[ahill1]

Does not this imply #20 (pre) > #19 (post)?

I don't think it does. He had to use all of his power to blow #19 to bits. Everyone reacted to his power-up when he was doing the attack, and we all know amplified attacks are often well beyond their power. Just look at how #20 reacts to it and how quickly he backs down when Vegeta tells him he's going to get him next. I think the Big Bang Attack would've blew away an armless #20 as well.

Vegeta's energy was gone. He didn't transform until he ate a senzu.

According to Piccolo's line, it seems Vegeta lost his power due to mainly #19's absorptions. Even so, he was implied to be >19 and <20. There are only 3 options IMO:

1) 20(pre) > 19 (post) [which is hard to think]
2) Vegeta (post ki absorbed) > 19 (post) > 20 (pre) > Vegeta (post BBA) [which is also unlikely since Piccolo does cite the energy absorption as the reason why Vegeta cannot fight 20].
3) 19 (post) > 20 (pre) > Vegeta (post ki absorbed) > 19 (beaten up).

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I go with #3. It makes the most sense to me. #19 had no chance to stop the Big Bang Attack, so he was done regardless of his power.

I think the Big Bang Attack was just a huge amplification.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Piccolo is confident in himself and Tenshinhan even says both Piccolo and Vegeta powered-up tremendously or something to that effect. Piccolo might not be in the Super-Saiyan's league, but he's definitely leagues above Freeza.

Even Kuririn says Piccolo fused with Kami is so high, because Piccolo himself became so high.

He is confident in their chances of victory with SSJ Goku on his side, not in his own power.
That much is shown when Goku goes down.

Tenshinhan determines that by seeing him beat up an android, who to them, is fearsome and he DID indeed make a power up, but not just one that would make him much stronger than Freeza, if stronger at all.

If he was leagues above Freeza, wouldn't Tenshinhan and Kami comment on him getting beaten as well?

Yes, and that's because he has powered up considerably, but his effective fusion with Kami doesn't require for him to be above Freeza at all.