Androids saga breakdown

[Fantastische Hure]

Piccolo is confident in himself and Tenshinhan even says both Piccolo and Vegeta powered-up tremendously or something to that effect. Piccolo might not be in the Super-Saiyan's league, but he's definitely leagues above Freeza.

Even Kuririn says Piccolo fused with Kami is so high, because Piccolo himself became so high.

He is confident in their chances of victory with SSJ Goku on his side, not in his own power.
That much is shown when Goku goes down.

Tenshinhan determines that by seeing him beat up an android, who to them, is fearsome and he DID indeed make a power up, but not just one that would make him much stronger than Freeza, if stronger at all.

If he was leagues above Freeza, wouldn't Tenshinhan and Kami comment on him getting beaten as well?

Yes, and that's because he has powered up considerably, but his effective fusion with Kami doesn't require for him to be above Freeza at all.

Well his power-up is grouped-up with that of Vegeta. Say what you want, but I think that means something, at-least. Even if they didn't know whether those were the androids, they were still able to tell that Piccolo powered-up a-lot and they know how high Trunks was 3 years ago and they still felt that Piccolo was relevant against the androids. They can sense Ki.

Not to mention Trunks killing Freeza doesn't have to mean much, when Vegeta isn't put in the same sentence either. That just means up-to that point that was Trunks' most amazing showing.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

From the back-story of Kami and Piccolo, we're told the split diminished their power in half. Piccolo merging with Kami took him way beyond the Super Saiyans. Before that, he's powerful enough to get grouped with the Super Saiyans:

Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

The Super Saiyans are the strongest, but Piccolo is not too far behind them.

 

[Tapion]

The fact that Piccolo was considered a factor in the fight against Android 17 & 18 proves that he would be capable of one-shotting Freeza by blowing a raspberry close to him.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Well his power-up is grouped-up with that of Vegeta. Say what you want, but I think that means something, at-least. Even if they didn't know whether those were the androids, they were still able to tell that Piccolo powered-up a-lot and they know how high Trunks was 3 years ago and they still felt that Piccolo was relevant against the androids. They can sense Ki.

Not to mention Trunks killing Freeza doesn't have to mean much, when Vegeta isn't put in the same sentence either. That just means up-to that point that was Trunks' most amazing showing.

They judged his strength by him beating up an android, who was supposed to have killed them in the future and only the Super Saiyans were supposed to match, not by actually sensing his ki.
Notice, how Krillin gaps at Piccolo's strength after he sends Gero flying, not like with the Super Saiyans, where they are impressed at their ki when they are merely standing.

Both Goku and Vegeta are noted to be stronger than Trunks, who stomped Freeza.
Piccolo is never said to be comparable or close to a Super Saiyan, outside of those two statements, where it's more Krillin and Tenshinhan being surprised at him kicking a supposedly deadly androids' ass.

Kami's statement excludes Piccolo, yet still treats Freeza as a measuring stick.

I doubt Toriyama membered the Grand Elder's statement about the split halving his power and I think it probably reffered to something else rather than strength.

Correction, Trunks, Piccolo and the weakling Earthlings were considered a factor in their fight against 17 and 18.
It was 17 probably being cautious, as Vegeta surpassed his expectations.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Well his power-up is grouped-up with that of Vegeta. Say what you want, but I think that means something, at-least. Even if they didn't know whether those were the androids, they were still able to tell that Piccolo powered-up a-lot and they know how high Trunks was 3 years ago and they still felt that Piccolo was relevant against the androids. They can sense Ki.

Not to mention Trunks killing Freeza doesn't have to mean much, when Vegeta isn't put in the same sentence either. That just means up-to that point that was Trunks' most amazing showing.

They judged his strength by him beating up an android, who was supposed to have killed them in the future and only the Super Saiyans were supposed to match, not by actually sensing his ki.
Notice, how Krillin gaps at Piccolo's strength after he sends Gero flying, not like with the Super Saiyans, where they are impressed at their ki when they are merely standing.

Both Goku and Vegeta are noted to be stronger than Trunks, who stomped Freeza.
Piccolo is never said to be comparable or close to a Super Saiyan, outside of those two statements, where it's more Krillin and Tenshinhan being surprised at him kicking a supposedly deadly androids' ass.

Kami's statement excludes Piccolo, yet still treats Freeza as a measuring stick.

I doubt Toriyama membered the Grand Elder's statement about the split halving his power and I think it probably reffered to something else rather than strength.

Correction, Trunks, Piccolo and the weakling Earthlings were considered a factor in their fight against 17 and 18.
It was 17 probably being cautious, as Vegeta surpassed his expectations.

How do you take Tenshinhan's statement then? That both Piccolo and Vegeta have powered-up. You can't just tell me that Piccolo got to 3rd Form Freeza tier and that's what Tenshinhan meant, right?! He even grouped their power-ups together. Tenshinhan can sense Ki, if Piccolo say only became about as high as suppressed Mecha-Freeza or someone, whilst that would have been a monstrous power-up, it for one wouldn't have compared to Vegeta's power-up and second it wouldn't have any meaning anyway, since Piccolo's already lower than those supposed Androids. They know the Androids are higher than Trunks from 3 years ago, if Piccolo were weaker, wouldn't they be asking themselves the same thing Piccolo did?

And Piccolo quite clearly says he's confident in his own power, just before (or as) they take-off.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Tenshinhan just saw Piccolo beat up one of those supposedly strong androids on his own at that moment, so to Tenshinhan, he would appear comparable to Vegeta.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Tenshinhan just saw Piccolo beat up one of those supposedly strong androids on his own at that moment, so to Tenshinhan, he would appear comparable to Vegeta.

So we are completely forgetting the fact that he can sense Ki?

If Piccolo were lower than Trunks from 3 years ago, it's a no-brainer to question just how Piccolo can defeat these supposed invincible androids, but they didn't. Which to me shows even if the androids themselves weren't what they expected, Piccolo himself has grown way higher than Trunks from 3 years ago.

He was also confident in his own power. 1 1 1

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Android 20 and 19 are already stronger than Trunks and Goku from Mecha Frieza arc and Piccolo made #20 like a tool so he's up there with SSJ tier.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

How is it so hard to see?

Piccolo is clearly treated a level above everyone-else in the story, but the Super-Saiyans. The Super-Saiyans are well above him, but he's clearly treated as superior to everyone-else, and is also implied multiple-times to be Super-Saiyan tier. Even Kuririn says it out loud. Blatantly at that.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Tenshinhan just saw Piccolo beat up one of those supposedly strong androids on his own at that moment, so to Tenshinhan, he would appear comparable to Vegeta.

So we are completely forgetting the fact that he can sense Ki?

If Piccolo were lower than Trunks from 3 years ago, it's a no-brainer to question just how Piccolo can defeat these supposed invincible androids, but they didn't. Which to me shows even if the androids themselves weren't what they expected, Piccolo himself has grown way higher than Trunks from 3 years ago.

He was also confident in his own power. 1 1 1

Yes, as that happens many times throughout the story, such as when Trunks watches Vegeta and 18 fight.

The androids could have grown stronger than Trunks by absorbing his ki, they were fighting Gero and 19 one on one, unlike with Trunks' encounter with the androids, etc.
Power isn't everything.

He wasn't.He was confident in winning wih SSJ Goku fighting with him.Once Goku goes down, he relies on sneaky tactics to get past Gero and only stays on the battlefield, only because he believes the timeline has changed with the wrong timing of Goku's virus and not because he is confident in his own power.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

He relies on sneaky tactics because he don't want his energy to get absorb by Gero.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Tenshinhan just saw Piccolo beat up one of those supposedly strong androids on his own at that moment, so to Tenshinhan, he would appear comparable to Vegeta.

So we are completely forgetting the fact that he can sense Ki?

If Piccolo were lower than Trunks from 3 years ago, it's a no-brainer to question just how Piccolo can defeat these supposed invincible androids, but they didn't. Which to me shows even if the androids themselves weren't what they expected, Piccolo himself has grown way higher than Trunks from 3 years ago.

He was also confident in his own power. 1 1 1

Yes, as that happens many times throughout the story, such as when Trunks watches Vegeta and 18 fight.

Because the androids didn't give off any ki and could have grown stronger than Trunks by absorbing his ki, they were fighting Gero and 19 one on one, unlike with Trunks' encounter with the androids, etc.
Power isn't everything.

He wasn't.He was confident in winning wih SSJ Goku fighting with him.Once Goku does down, he relies on sneaky tactics to get past Gero and only stays on the battlefield, only because he believes the timeline has changed with the wrong timing of Goku's virus and not because he is confident in his own power.

Trunks really did think Vegeta was fighting on-par with #18, because that's the highest level she ever fought at. Trunks is lower than Vegeta, remember?!

Also just from something before, are you trying to tell me the Nameless Namekian before split would have been higher than 100% Freeza? 1 1 1

Taking out all these over-analysing stuff, it's quite obvious the story wants to portray Piccolo having reached Super-Saiyan level, maybe not current Super-Saiyan level, but generally yeah. There are no two ways around it. Just maybe take all that over-analysing away and look at how Piccolo's being portrayed and you can see for yourself.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

He relies on sneaky tactics, when he could have kicked Gero out of the way and saved Goku faster?
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

My point with that was, that Trunks didn't even notice Vegeta's stamina dropping with every attack.

Obviously no, but the fact is, the reuion doesn't have to merely double his power.

The story wants to portay him as strong, but not nearly as strong as a Super Saiyan.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He relies on sneaky tactics, when he could have kicked Gero out of the way and saved Goku faster?
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

My point with that was, that Trunks didn't even notice Vegeta's stamina dropping with every attack.

Obviously no, but the fact is, the reuion doesn't have to merely double his power.

The story wants to portay him as strong, but not nearly as strong as a Super Saiyan.

See? That's exactly what I meant. Piccolo is high, but not nearly as high as the Super-Saiyans. The Super-Saiyans have hugely improved since the 3 years, saying Piccolo is still below Freeza or Trunks, even after having said that, undermines the huge improvements they made, in my opinion. Not only Piccolo, but the Super-Saiyans, too.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

No.They pretty much stayed around the same and Vegeta just became one.
They needed to ascend to actually properly power up.

 

[Six Trails]

Not to be rude, but it seems like your argument just relies on assuming that every character making a power statement is either 1) not sensing Ki despite having the ability to do so, or 2) delusional.

You're free to believe whatever you like, but I prefer to not have to turn every character into an idiot just to fit my view.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

No.They pretty much stayed around the same and Vegeta just became one.
They needed to ascend to actually properly power up.

They really didn't. Vegeta didn't just become one, but he surpassed both Goku and Trunks.

And like @Papasmurf once pointed-out even after ascending, their Super-Saiyan forms became higher. Evident by Super-Saiyan Vegeta being implied to be a match for Semi-Perfect Cell and this was before mastering.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

@GokhanDBZfan

Because he didn't know how strong #20 was, and also he knew that #20 can absorb energy so he doesn't want risk it.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P2.5
Context: getting up after No.20 shot him
Piccolo: “No matter how strong that guy may be, I can’t be defeated with that level of attack.”

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Not to be rude, but it seems like your argument just relies on assuming that every character making a power statement is either 1) not sensing Ki despite having the ability to do so, or 2) delusional.

You're free to believe whatever you like, but I prefer to not have to turn every character into an idiot just to fit my view.

Except it appears that way, when there are clear statements contradicting Tenshinhan and Krillin's praise of Piccolo's strength, which are based on merely observing him beating an android percieved as unbeatable by anyone but Super Saiyans.

They really didn't. Vegeta didn't just become one, but he surpassed both Goku and Trunks.

They did stay the same, at least Trunks did.
Trunks had no real way of powering up(no GM, RoSaT or sparring partners) nor is stated to have powered up AT ALL and Goku sparred with two ''weaklings'' in normal conditions.

Ascending to Grade 2 probably allowed him to gain more strength as a Super Saiyan.It makes zero sense, but it appears that way from the way they treat ascending past a Super Saiyan.
Goku treats Vegeta and Trunks as useless to help Kamiccolo with Cell and the androids without ascending in the RoSaT.

Because he didn't know how strong #20 was, and also he knew that #20 can absorb energy so he doesn't want risk it.

If he was truly confident in his power, he wouldn't really have to care about Gero's strength, because he was planning to fight that kind of power to begin with.
Falling down, pretending to be dead gave Gero more opportunity to absorb his ki or potentialy absorb Gohan and the others' ki while 19 kils Goku.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Why can't Trunks receive a hax from AT?