Androids saga breakdown

[Fantastische Hure]

Not to be rude, but it seems like your argument just relies on assuming that every character making a power statement is either 1) not sensing Ki despite having the ability to do so, or 2) delusional.

You're free to believe whatever you like, but I prefer to not have to turn every character into an idiot just to fit my view.

Except it appears that way, when there are clear statements contradicting Tenshinhan and Krillin's praise of Piccolo's strength, which are based on merely observing him beating an android percieved as unbeatable by anyone but Super Saiyans.

They really didn't. Vegeta didn't just become one, but he surpassed both Goku and Trunks.

They did stay the same, at least Trunks did.
Trunks had no real way of powering up(no GM, RoSaT or sparring partners) nor is stated to have powered up AT ALL and Goku sparred with two ''weaklings'' in normal conditions.

Ascending to Grade 2 probably allowed him to gain more strength as a Super Saiyan.It makes zero sense, but it appears that way from the way they treat ascending past a Super Saiyan.
Goku treats Vegeta and Trunks as useless to help Kamiccolo with Cell and the androids without ascending in the RoSaT.

Trunks was implied to have got higher. Just because it's not out-right said doesn't mean he didn't. Trunks was up there with the other 2 Super-Saiyans who trained hard for 3 years.

That's an excuse, though. The original dialogue clearly says the only way Goku and the other Super-Saiyans can defeat Cell (when he was still in his 1st form) was to ascend, not talking about making their already available Super-Saiyan forms higher, but find a new form all-together. We know their Super-Saiyans forms did get higher though, regardless of them mastering it or not. It even went above 2nd Form Cell, and they thought they couldn't even help against 1st Form Cell with just normal Super-Saiyan. So that's clearly contradicted. Doesn't mean much now.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Because there is no evidence for him getting one.
Goku not gaining much power from his training with Piccolo and Gohan makes sense with everything else, that happens, unlike Trunks suddenly gaining a heck load of power from training alone for 8 months on Earth.
It doesnt make any sense, as Trunks could have just kept doing that super effective training and surpass the androids within a couple of years.

Trunks was implied to have got higher. Just because it's not out-right said doesn't mean he didn't. Trunks was up there with the other 2 Super-Saiyans who trained hard for 3 years.

That's an excuse, though. The original dialogue clearly says the only way Goku and the other Super-Saiyans can defeat Cell (when he was still in his 1st form) was to ascend, not talking about making their already available Super-Saiyan forms higher, but find a new form all-together. We know their Super-Saiyans forms did get higher though, regardless of them mastering it or not. It even went above 2nd Form Cell, and they thought they couldn't even help against 1st Form Cell with just normal Super-Saiyan. So that's clearly contradicted. Doesn't mean much now.

It wasn't implied anywhere.That just means Goku didn't progress much, which makes sense with everything else.
That isn't an excuse, that's what's stated.

The Saiyans DID find a new form, Grade 2 and FPSSJ, which allowed them to reach a new level of power even in their regular Super Saiyan states.
That's what's implied.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Because there is no evidence for him getting one.
Goku not gaining much power from his training with Piccolo and Gohan makes sense with everything else, that happens, unlike Trunks suddenly gaining a heck load of power from training alone for 8 months on Earth.
It doesnt make any sense, as Trunks could have just kept doing that super effective training and surpass the androids within a couple of years.

It doesn't make sense, but then again I'm not the one making the rules. AT wrote the series, how am I supposed to know how Trunks got so high?

A-lot of things in fictions don't make sense, but they happen anyway. Someone writes them after-all.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Also Goku didn't immediately go for the RoSaT, despite knowing of the impeding threat. That means he himself thought he can improve to the point of being able to defeat them without the RoSaT. A clear indication that the Super-Saiyans did power-up amazingly.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Because there is no evidence for him getting one.
Goku not gaining much power from his training with Piccolo and Gohan makes sense with everything else, that happens, unlike Trunks suddenly gaining a heck load of power from training alone for 8 months on Earth.
It doesnt make any sense, as Trunks could have just kept doing that super effective training and surpass the androids within a couple of years.

Trunks was implied to have got higher. Just because it's not out-right said doesn't mean he didn't. Trunks was up there with the other 2 Super-Saiyans who trained hard for 3 years.

That's an excuse, though. The original dialogue clearly says the only way Goku and the other Super-Saiyans can defeat Cell (when he was still in his 1st form) was to ascend, not talking about making their already available Super-Saiyan forms higher, but find a new form all-together. We know their Super-Saiyans forms did get higher though, regardless of them mastering it or not. It even went above 2nd Form Cell, and they thought they couldn't even help against 1st Form Cell with just normal Super-Saiyan. So that's clearly contradicted. Doesn't mean much now.

The Saiyans DID find a new form, Grade 2 and FPSSJ, which allowed them to reach a new level of power even in their regular Super Saiyan states.
That's what's implied.

Mastered Super-Saiyan isn't a new form. It's just Super-Saiyan, but mastered.

And please look back at the dialogue where Goku says that they can't do anything unless they ascend past Super-Saiyan. It's talked of as if Super-Saiyan has hit its limit, but we know it didn't since Vegeta came-out even higher, instead of just a new form.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

That's because Trunks didn't get any stronger.
Trunks just gave him a vague description of their strength and told him he died before he got a chance to fight, so he doesn't need RoSaT, when it wasn't even clear to him HIS Super Saiyan after training for a couple of years wouldn't be enough.
Heck, he doesn't even bother to make Gohan a Super Saiyan.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

That's because Trunks didn't get any stronger.
Trunks just gave him a vague description of their strength and told him he died before he got a chance to fight, so he doesn't need RoSaT, when it wasn't even clear to him HIS Super Saiyan after training for a couple of years wouldn't be enough.
Heck, he doesn't even bother to make Gohan a Super Saiyan.

What?

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

What?

Also Goku didn't immediately go for the RoSaT, despite knowing of the impeding threat. That means he himself thought he can improve to the point of being able to defeat them without the RoSaT. A clear indication that the Super-Saiyans did power-up amazingly.

Trunks just gave Goku a vague description of the androids' strength and told him he died before he got a chance to fight, so Goku doesn't need to use RoSaT, when it wasn't even clear to him HIS Super Saiyan after training for a couple of years wouldn't be enough to fight the androids.
Heck, Goku doesn't even bother to make Gohan a Super Saiyan, so he clearly doesn't think all that highly of those androids, when he does brings Gohan along, yet doesn't make him a SSJ.

Mastered Super-Saiyan isn't a new form. It's just Super-Saiyan, but mastered.

And please look back at the dialogue where Goku says that they can't do anything unless they ascend past Super-Saiyan. It's talked of as if Super-Saiyan has hit its limit, but we know it didn't since Vegeta came-out even higher, instead of just a new form.

I know that.

Yes, it's treated as a limit.That's my point this entire time.Goku didn't gain much strength over the years of training, because the Super Saiyan has hit it's limit.
Unlocking Grade 2 or attaining FPSSJ allowed them to surpass that limit.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

What?

Also Goku didn't immediately go for the RoSaT, despite knowing of the impeding threat. That means he himself thought he can improve to the point of being able to defeat them without the RoSaT. A clear indication that the Super-Saiyans did power-up amazingly.

Trunks just gave Goku a vague description of the androids' strength and told him he died before he got a chance to fight, so Goku doesn't need to use RoSaT, when it wasn't even clear to him HIS Super Saiyan after training for a couple of years wouldn't be enough to fight the androids.
Heck, Goku doesn't even bother to make Gohan a Super Saiyan, so he clearly doesn't think all that highly of those androids, when he does brings Gohan along, yet doesn't make him a SSJ.

Mastered Super-Saiyan isn't a new form. It's just Super-Saiyan, but mastered.

And please look back at the dialogue where Goku says that they can't do anything unless they ascend past Super-Saiyan. It's talked of as if Super-Saiyan has hit its limit, but we know it didn't since Vegeta came-out even higher, instead of just a new form.

I know that.

Yes, it's treated as a limit.That's my point this entire time.Goku didn't gain much strength over the years of training, because the Super Saiyan has hit it's limit.
Unlocking Grade 2 or attaining FPSSJ allowed them to surpass that limit.

That makes no sense, biro. Goku treated it as the end-all be-all limit for Super-Saiyan. He made it seem like only a new form could make them relevant again. Which wasn't true. Whilst it's true they unlocked a new form, their Super-Saiyan did get a-lot higher through their training, contradictory to what Goku said. Goku made it seem as if only a potential ascension could make them relevant again, not that an ascension can also higher their, in Goku's brain, now obsolete Super-Saiyan forms. That's what the dialogue implied.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

quote

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Regardless of how that works(my guess it's another retcon caused by Toriyama editor), it supports my point about Goku' strength staying about the same regardless of the training he went through.

It doesn't make sense, biro.

post-Yardrat Goku was > Trunks who was >>> Mecha-Freeza who was higher than 100% Freeza who was somewhat rivalling SSj Goku on Namek.

goku made huge gains then

are u trying to tell me that he made less gains in 3 years than he did then??? he wasn't even rly training then & was just trying instant-transmission & getting super-saiyan to be normal for him

you talk about not making sense, this makes no sense

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

The power of a Super Saiyan was retconned.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

The power of a Super Saiyan was retconned.
Also, I don't think Goku was stronger than Trunks and only about equal to him.

I got 2 words for you:

Goku's finger.

Regardless of whether Goku or Trunks were really trying in that scene, it clearly is supposed to show Goku's superiority. Even-though I don't think it's that much. And even dis-regarding that, that's still huge gains.

Still makes no sense to what you say.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

The power of a Super Saiyan was retconned.

Any proof for that?

Honestly that's just an educated-guess.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Trunks was clearly holding back in that scene and the purpose of that was for Trunks to determine, if he can beat the androids with years of training.

Goku wasn't stated to have been training on Yadrat, if I recall correctly, only that he learned how to become a SSJ at will and the teleportation.
Yet he was strong enough to take on both Cold and Freeza in the future timeline and could do the same in the present.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Trunks was clearly holding back in that scene and the purpose of that was for Trunks to determine, if he can beat the androids with years of training.

Goku wasn't stated to have been training on Yadrat, if I recall correctly, only that he learned how to become a SSJ at will and the teleportation.
Yet he was strong enough to take on both Cold and Freeza in the future timeline and could do the same in the present.

In-universe, maybe, but out-of-universe what this also tells us is that Goku is superior to Trunks who just made Freeza look like Raditz. Any person who reads or watches the scene can tell that that's supposed to show us Goku is even above him.

That's what I'm saying Goku wasn't even consciously trying to train as hard as he could, since he was looking to become a Super-Saiyan at will and learn the teleportation. Yet he gained signification power.

His power-up 3 years later (when he actually trained as hard as he could) against the androids being lower than that makes no sense.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

That's because his SSJ power got retconed.
It's even treated that way in the Trunks arc. as if his Trunks arc. SSJ power always has been Goku's default SSJ power.

Like I've said before, he reached a limit and couldn't get past it, hence the minimal to zero gains over the years of training.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

That's because his SSJ power got retconed.
It's even treated that way in the Trunks arc. as if his Trunks arc. SSJ power always has been Goku's default SSJ power.

Like I've said before, he reached a limit and couldn't get past it, hence the minimal to zero gains over the years of training.

So all just assumptions?

I don't mean it in an evil way, but that just seems to be your opinion. There doesn't seem to be any evidence at-all for what you say.

But if that's your opinion...

kewl

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Those aren't assumptions, Goku is stated to only have been practising turning into a SSJ and using teleportation, yet he is strong enough to beat Freeza and Cold working together easily, when earlier a weaker Freeza put up somewhat of a good fight?
Either he got much stronger practising turning into a Super Saiyan and teleportation, got a zenkai, has simply recovered from his injuries and restored his stamina or it was a retcon.

Same thing with the SSJ limit.
Goku's power is implied several times to have not changed much over the years of training.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Those aren't assumptions, Goku is stated to only have been practising turning into a SSJ and using teleportation, yet he is strong enough to beat Freeza and Cold working together easily, when earlier a weaker Freeza put up somewhat of a good fight?
Either he got much stronger practising turning into a Super Saiyan and teleportation, got a zenkai, has simply recovered from his injuries and restored his stamina or it was a retcon.

Same thing with the SSJ limit.
Goku's power is implied several times to have not changed much over the years of training.

Zenkais weren't written in after Namek anymore, other than Cell.

He just got higher. Why is it so hard to understand?

Goku did get a-lot higher after the 3 years. He only didn't because you refuse to think that any of them can get much more powerful for some-reason.

The retcon is an assumption.