Base Gotenks pre vs SSJ Kid Trunks

[p123]

Excellent work Future Warrior. That says it all. It's as clear as day.

Base Gotenks >> Super Saiyan Kids (Full Power) >> Piccolo

 

[SSJ2]

Krillin looks like he's about to be killed by Gotenks' aura lmao

 

[Pyro]

Yamcha looks disgusted/offended.

 

[Six Trails]

I think I covered that issue nicely in the previous post Mikey. Overestimating doesn't mean we throw out all logic. Please read the entire post.

It's not "throwing out all logic". You are making up comparisons that are never made in the story. Gotenks overestimated himself, and you're taking that as "Gotenks overestimated himself, but he's gotta at least be stronger than SS2 Vegeta just so that it's not THAT big of an overestimation" when we're talking about a scene that was clearly not meant to be taken so seriously.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I wish you were here, Tosh.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I wish you were here, Toshit.

So he could argue Base Gotenks < Piccolo.

 

[SSJ2]

Gay as fuck.

 

[Void]

Krillin is drawn so poorly in that last pic Future posted. I forgot the drop off in art quality was so noticeable.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I wish you were here, Toshit.

So he could argue Base Gotenks < Piccolo.

Precisely. It'd be a ton of fun. When will you stop being stubborn and bring him back?

 

[p123]

Negative Mikey. There are four character statements going on here. My logic is rock solid. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Six Trails]

If you say so.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I wish you were here, Toshit.

So he could argue Base Gotenks < Piccolo.

Precisely. It'd be a ton of fun. When will you stop being stubborn and bring him back?

Don't know why you're asking me, I'm not an admin.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Gotenks needs to be stronger than Majin Boo who fought Goku in order to gain that confidence lol, but he got his ass kicked which means that Gotenks is a full of shit and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Well the problem with that logic is that every time someone is wrong, then what? We just randomly assign their value? That is not logical. You need to make it like a math equation. There's no reason to drop him down anymore levels than necessary. Same thing for overestimating on our part, we shouldn't radically assume a character is much stronger than suggested. So we set up a bit of a chart here to determine. Asking questions is always best.

1) How strong do the characters say Gotenks is?
A) Piccolo says although he is very strong, he has no chance against Buu.
B) Gotenks thinks he can win, easily.
C) The rest of the crew thinks he can do it, but are banking on Gotenks confidence.

2) What happens in the fight?

We don't know for sure, but Gotenks got his ass kicked, badly. He managed to survive somehow, but he clearly was not right.

3) So how do we evaluate this?
A) Piccolo seems to have the best impression of Gotenks power, he was proven correct. Gotenks is very strong, but nowhere near Buu.
B) Gotenks is an overconfident jackass.
C) Other's confidence seems to rely on Gotenks' confidence. Their ability to sense probably isn't anywhere as good as Piccolo and they are perhaps gullible and naive.

3) So we know where Gotenks power tops out. He is strong enough to get absolutely wrecked by Majin Buu. We know the ceiling, but how do we figure out the floor? Let's assume he's as strong as Majin Vegeta for now.
A) Piccolo is complimentary of Gotenks power, at a time like this, since Goku vs Buu has been established, is it really appropriate for Piccolo to be calling a power of Vegeta or less, very strong? We can't be sure.
B) Gotenks himself is confident. He has to be confident for some reason. Unless he can't sense ki at all. Can't judge movements etc. What is the source of Gotenks confidence? Goten/Trunks have sensed Majin Vegeta, Ssj3 Goku accurately as far as we know. We know Buu is pretty hard to read, but we know Vegeta was getting destroyed by Buu an Goku was fighting very well. For Gotenks to have any realistic confidence, he needs to be somewhere around Goku's level in his mind. He can be overcompensating and not judging Buu correctly, but he is most likely closer to Goku than he is to Vegeta. You can assume that the boys thought Goku was significantly more powerful than Buu as well in this theory based on some parts of the fight they saw.
C) Humans seem to be banking on Gotenks confidence and their ki sensing seems to be a bit out of whack in the saga, but logic dictates that someone who absolutely cannot beat Buu (Vegeta) coming back to life and having supreme confidence, most likely would not result in confidence in his statements. For the humans to think Gotenks has a chance, they need to know that his power is realistically in the ballpark. Vegeta could come back and be extremely confident and the chance they would believe him would be very low. The fact that they talk about Gotenks confidence does seem to suggest they don't think his power is enough, but it's enough for his confidence to sway them. Piccolo is more of a realist and the others are more hopeful, which results in there differing opinions.


Majin Buu >> Gotenks Ceiling >> Gotenks Floor >> Majin Vegeta

We need to make it like a math equation? Toriyama himself left that shit years ago, also the whole scene was completely gag! That's why their fight wasn't shown in the manga because Toriyama was the telling the readers that its all about comedy purpose and shouldn't be taken seriously. If you really want to make it as math equation then we have to analyse Mr. Satan's durability as he can clearly survived from Pure Boo's attack that can nearly kill Vegeta.

Base Gotenks is all about hyped and didn't prove anything to back up his power and that happen twice!. Even on Super, Gotenks was treated as a gag character and that's how Toriyama sees it. Like Mikey said, Gotenks at least need to be stronger than Majin Boo in order to have that confidence but he wasn't. If you want to take Gotenks seriously, then he needs to back it up from his feats not his hype.

 

[p123]

Coming to the conclusion it is a gag not meant to be taken seriously is fine. However, if you do want to find out logically where a character may fall, you should use logic. It's that simple.

 

[ahill1]

I feel confident that base Gotenks is significantly more powerful than SSJ kids just based in the way everyone reacted to their powers, with them seemingly being crushed by the storm of chi (even though reaction sometimes might not be the best way to judge such things). But the point of base Gotenks having to be > Majin Vegeta seems a bit meh to me. It's like saying the humans must be at least stronger than Freeza for showing up in the battefield (@androids), even though someone like Freeza would be little to nothing there. That's a scene where one clearly is wrong (Gotenks) and one clearly is right (Piccolo).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Coming to the conclusion it is a gag not meant to be taken seriously is fine. However, if you do want to find out logically where a character may fall, you should use logic. It's that simple.

That's fine but then again you're gonna find a lot of contradiction and inconsistency if you take it seriously.

Also, as for the topic. Base Gotenks is stronger than SSjin Trunks, because according to Goku himself the fusion is stronger than each individuals.

 

[Pyro]

Even the guidebooks say Gotenks is stronger than the individual boys, and the guidebooks don't give Gotenks any credit if it can be helped.

 

[p123]

I disagree Ahill. Anyone who shows up needs to be stupidly powerful. So going in we assume that.

Saiyans, Namekians, Humans > Freeza > Chaozu

Since he was stated not to be able to keep up he's out.

Then we break it down and realize the humans are not even as strong as the Saiyans' natural state.

So then we try to figure out how strong the natural state is.

This shit ain't rocket science, it's just divergent thinking people.

 

[ahill1]

I see a similar case with androids saga humans, p:

base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta (he is confident in fighting Boo)

then he gets the tar beaten out of him and we realize he was just with false hope


Why do base Gotenks need to be above Majin Vegeta if his confidence was clearly proven false? If he didn't know Boo's true power and only knew Majin Vegeta was defeated then okay, he'd be > Majin Vegeta (similar to how future Trunks post 3 years was above 1 arm Gohan)... but he knew how powerful fat Boo was, so his confidence just comes off as completely wrong to me.

 

[p123]

It is the same with the humans. It's just by the process of elimination that we weed them out. Same goes for Base Saiyans > Piccolo. Process of elimination. This is just like any sort of logical problem you have to do with at school. Why does it seem like rocket science to some?

Let's get off Gotenks for a second. You have to use divergent thinking. Let's try another character and see what happens.

I'll make a statement, you either prove me true or false and I will list all the things you forgot to mention.

Humans are superior to Freeza. True or False and give reasons, in depth, no bullshit, just facts.