Base Gotenks pre vs SSJ Kid Trunks

[Pyro]

Compare Piccolo's reaction to the kids powering up on the Lookout to his reaction when Base Gotenks forms the first time.

 

[p123]

Base Gotenks >> Ssj Kids is probably likley, but very, very hard to pull off with a 50x Boost. Hell, Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta seems very plausible, which is even more impossible to pull off.

For me, I just dump a lot of suggestions in the Buu Saga, they are simply impossible to pull off, unlike the other sagas. There is way too much ridiculous nonsense going on in that saga and you can tell when you try to do any levels for them.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Yeah base Gotenks does not have to be > Majin Vegeta. It's possible but not necessary.

The reactions from the Z fighters can easily be factoring in the fact that they are sensing Gotenks in his base form.

They don't have to be thinking "OMG Gotenks is the strongest thing I have ever sensed". They could be thinking "OMG how is he so strong without even being a SSJ?!"

 

[p123]

Logically speaking Base Gotenks has to be over Majin Vegeta. We discard it because of reasons. But, the normal process we lead to definitely ends up with that result.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Base Gotenks is a gag character, there's no point discussing his PL.

 

[p123]

That's the adult approach to take here honestly. Anything to do with him has to be discarded, it literally is series ruining shit.

 

[SSJ2]

All you have to do is alter the fusion SSJ multiplier.

 

[p123]

Show me.

 

[SSJ2]

Make it 4x and you don't have issues,

SSJ2 Goku: 100
Base Gotenks: 125
SSJ3 Goku: 400
SSJ Gotenks: 500

 

[p123]

No, I meant show me how that works out logically. In terms of the correlation of Goten/Trunks to Gotenks. And the correct multiplier for Gotenks Super Saiyan in all my years doing this, should be 2.5x. It's the proper multiplier to make the statements somewhat reasonable.

 

[SSJ2]

I think we've been through this before and disagreed. I don't see the kids making YUGE gains from their ROSAT training individually, it's not noted.

Why 2.5x? I wouldn't mind using it myself, but I don't think Base Gotenks needs to be >>> Majin Vegeta by any means.

 

[p123]

Logically speaking, Base Gotenks must be >> Majin Vegeta. Remember, this is POST Ssj3 Goku vs Fat Buu. The new standard thought line is that even Goku couldn't really get it done. Sure, the reader knows he probably could have based on Piccolo's thoughts. But it is questionable. Majin Vegeta is pure garbage at this point. Goku on the other hand is the new standard. You have to be somewhere around Goku to even think you can beat Majin Buu. Piccolo's statements that Base Gotenks is not capable downgrades him from Goku's level, but not so far as down to Vegeta's pathetic level.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Majin Buu >> Base Gotenks >> Majin Vegeta is the proper chain imo.

Numerically let's see.

Ssj Gotenks 550
Ssj3 Goku 500
Majin Buu 400
Gotenks 220
Majin Vegeta 125


That's probably the most accurate representation of these events.

Guidelines.

1) Goten/Trunks have sensed both Vegeta vs Buu and Goku vs Buu. They are good ki sensors and know exactly where their dads stand.
2) Gotenks is extremely confident in base, sure he's overzealous, but you have to give his confidence some respect here, clearly if he is merely comparable to Majin Vegeta, there would be no hope. Krillen and Yamcha would not be capable of expressing hope either. Sure, they are more going off of his confidence, but even then, there are limits. Where I have him at, gives us a chance to make all of there statements work.
3) Piccolo knows for a fact Gotenks cannot win. Piccolo's sensing is most accurate here, he can clearly see the divide between Goku (what's needed to truly beat/contend with Buu) and what Gotenks brings to the table. Nothing about Piccolo's statements suggest he is only as strong as Vegeta, if he was, Piccolo would probably mention, You are only as strong as Vegeta and look how that turned out. Everything about the entire groups statements point to Base Gotenks >> Vegeta.

 

[Future Warrior]

I just use the GT multiplier for fusion. It works rather well.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Guidelines.

1) Goten/Trunks have sensed both Vegeta vs Buu and Goku vs Buu. They are good ki sensors and know exactly where their dads stand.
2) Gotenks is extremely confident in base, sure he's overzealous, but you have to give his confidence some respect here, clearly if he is merely comparable to Majin Vegeta, there would be no hope. Krillin and Yamcha would not be capable of expressing hope either. Sure, they are more going off of his confidence, but even then, there are limits. Where I have him at, gives us a chance to make all of there statements work.
3) Piccolo knows for a fact Gotenks cannot win. Piccolo's sensing is most accurate here, he can clearly see the divide between Goku (what's needed to truly beat/contend with Buu) and what Gotenks brings to the table. Nothing about Piccolo's statements suggest he is only as strong as Vegeta, if he was, Piccolo would probably mention, You are only as strong as Vegeta and look how that turned out. Everything about the entire groups statements point to Base Gotenks >> Vegeta.

Gotenks needs to be stronger than Majin Boo who fought Goku in order to gain that confidence lol, but he got his ass kicked which means that Gotenks is a full of shit and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[SSJ2]

Nah, I agree with P's logic here. Gotenks is obviously overconfident, but he wouldn't be confident if he was only on Vegeta's level, who Goten and Trunks saw get bent over by Fat Boo.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Then I don't have a problem with that but I prefer not to acknowledge his power.

 

[p123]

Gotenks needs to be stronger than Majin Boo who fought Goku in order to gain that confidence lol, but he got his ass kicked which means that Gotenks is a full of shit and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Well the problem with that logic is that every time someone is wrong, then what? We just randomly assign their value? That is not logical. You need to make it like a math equation. There's no reason to drop him down anymore levels than necessary. Same thing for overestimating on our part, we shouldn't radically assume a character is much stronger than suggested. So we set up a bit of a chart here to determine. Asking questions is always best.

1) How strong do the characters say Gotenks is?
A) Piccolo says although he is very strong, he has no chance against Buu.
B) Gotenks thinks he can win, easily.
C) The rest of the crew thinks he can do it, but are banking on Gotenks confidence.

2) What happens in the fight?

We don't know for sure, but Gotenks got his ass kicked, badly. He managed to survive somehow, but he clearly was not right.

3) So how do we evaluate this?
A) Piccolo seems to have the best impression of Gotenks power, he was proven correct. Gotenks is very strong, but nowhere near Buu.
B) Gotenks is an overconfident jackass.
C) Other's confidence seems to rely on Gotenks' confidence. Their ability to sense probably isn't anywhere as good as Piccolo and they are perhaps gullible and naive.

3) So we know where Gotenks power tops out. He is strong enough to get absolutely wrecked by Majin Buu. We know the ceiling, but how do we figure out the floor? Let's assume he's as strong as Majin Vegeta for now.
A) Piccolo is complimentary of Gotenks power, at a time like this, since Goku vs Buu has been established, is it really appropriate for Piccolo to be calling a power of Vegeta or less, very strong? We can't be sure.
B) Gotenks himself is confident. He has to be confident for some reason. Unless he can't sense ki at all. Can't judge movements etc. What is the source of Gotenks confidence? Goten/Trunks have sensed Majin Vegeta, Ssj3 Goku accurately as far as we know. We know Buu is pretty hard to read, but we know Vegeta was getting destroyed by Buu an Goku was fighting very well. For Gotenks to have any realistic confidence, he needs to be somewhere around Goku's level in his mind. He can be overcompensating and not judging Buu correctly, but he is most likely closer to Goku than he is to Vegeta. You can assume that the boys thought Goku was significantly more powerful than Buu as well in this theory based on some parts of the fight they saw.
C) Humans seem to be banking on Gotenks confidence and their ki sensing seems to be a bit out of whack in the saga, but logic dictates that someone who absolutely cannot beat Buu (Vegeta) coming back to life and having supreme confidence, most likely would not result in confidence in his statements. For the humans to think Gotenks has a chance, they need to know that his power is realistically in the ballpark. Vegeta could come back and be extremely confident and the chance they would believe him would be very low. The fact that they talk about Gotenks confidence does seem to suggest they don't think his power is enough, but it's enough for his confidence to sway them. Piccolo is more of a realist and the others are more hopeful, which results in there differing opinions.


Majin Buu >> Gotenks Ceiling >> Gotenks Floor >> Majin Vegeta

 

[Six Trails]

By the logic most people use, Base Gotenks needs to be even stronger than SS3 Goku to think he can beat Boo. So the "evidence" for him being stronger than SS2 Vegeta seems faulty at best to me.

As for the battle, I'm not sure who I'd have winning personally. The only guideline for me is Base Gotenks > Piccolo because otherwise Piccolo would be a moron for not stopping Gotenks when he flew off.

 

[p123]

I think I covered that issue nicely in the previous post Mikey. Overestimating doesn't mean we throw out all logic. Please read the entire post.

Piccolo's reactions to the kids and Base Gotenks should give you all the information you need on that, ahill or someone, please post Piccolo's reactions to Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Kids going full power.

 

[Future Warrior]

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