Base Gotenks pre vs SSJ Kid Trunks

[SSJ2]

There is no factual evidence of that.

 

[p123]

Piccolo told them they need to be stupidly powerful or don't power showing up didn't he? So, the fact that humans showed up suggests they are stupidly powerful does it not?

 

[Six Trails]

Why does it seem like rocket science to some?

You fail to realize that there is no one not understanding your logic, they just see the flaws in it.

Simply put, Gotenks overestimated himself and was not as strong as initially thought to be. You are needlessly complicating it by trying to make it into some comparison to SS2 Vegeta when he was never even mentioned at all during that scene. Essentially, your logic is:

"Gotenks should be stronger than SS3 Goku since he thought he could beat Boo, but we know he can't be that strong since he got beaten so instead he has to be stronger than the next strongest character (SS2 Vegeta)."

It really doesn't get any more arbitrary than that.

 

[SSJ2]

Piccolo told them they need to be stupidly powerful or don't power showing up didn't he? So, the fact that humans showed up suggests they are stupidly powerful does it not?

Tenshinhan considers the Super Saiyans gods because they were able to beat Freeza. He still looks at Freeza as his direct superior.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Krillin also talks about Cell being stronger than Freeza to Goku as if it were a big deal.

The statement would be meaningless as fuck if every single one of them were beyond Freeza.

"Hey, this thing's even stronger (we are too, but forget us for a second) than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?"

Hell to the naw. They showed up because they were going to fight alongside Goku and the others. None of them alone are worth shit.

 

[SSJ2]

When they are flying in to the island near South City:

Krillin: "How can I be happy when I'm about to launch a battle to the death with a gang of androids? We're not all Super Saiyans, you know..."

I think this says it all. Krillin still looks at regular SSJ power as the ultimate power. He isn't close yet. The most I'd be willing to put him here is like 30 million, and that's only if I lower the SSJ multiplier.

 

[p123]

Exactly Mikey.

Assume the highest and let the statements and feats disprove you. That's the right way to go about things. And as you can see based on what the others have displayed, it works basically every time. You just gotta believe in the system. I've been doing this for a lot longer than you and I know what works.

 

[Six Trails]

But as I already said, that's incredibly arbitrary. I should follow a system that you randomly made up but has nothing to actually support it? You evidently don't know what works because if you did you would actually have an argument as to why Gotenks should be as strong as you're claiming he is other than "He just is and I've been debating DBZ for a long time so I'm right."

 

[p123]

I don't think it's random Mikey. It's a system I've developed that has worked. It works for many things, not just Dragonball.

This is a Golden Rule of mine.

1) Assume all statements are correct, unless proven false.

That helps with all situations. This is not random, this is a strategic system that leads us to the most logical outcome every time.

I've already laid out the logic in depth, hell at severe depths. You should read that. It's a system that simply works regarding logic in stories. Assume true unless otherwise stated.

Your approach is actually the random approach. So many don't realize this. They go against my system, yet they fail to realize my system keeps in line with the truth.

Basically I'd say this to you. Why is Mikey, Dbzeta.net Forum Poster, more knowledgeable about Gotenks power than the actual character? Than the characters in the story? You are not. Neither am I. Our job is to listen to the characters, to listen to the author and not try to manipulate what they are trying to tell us. It's not a hard system, it's simply the right way. Assume the characters are speaking the truth, not evaluate what they are saying.

If that doesn't get through to you, nothing will. I do not suffer fools gladly, if you choose the path of illogical, ego driven, biased thought, we have no need to speak further.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

My rules are these:

1. Feats are on par with author and narrator statements

2. Character statements should be considered true unless they contradict any of #1

3. Guidebooks should be considered true unless they contradict #1 or #2

 

[p123]

Those are fair rules. I wouldn't force anyone to take guidebook material as fact, but if it doesn't hurt anyone, I don't see why they can't use it. The problem with guidebooks and relying on them is that a lot of things go so far against the manga that people start making up things like "The manga is silent on the issue, so we go with the guidebook's logic" and that can run into it being manipulated too much. If you notice, every high level debater here generally avoids guidebook logic like it was a pile a shit for that reason.

There is simply no substitute for logic.

 

[Six Trails]

1) Assume all statements are correct, unless proven false.

Gotenks' statement was proven false.

Assume true unless otherwise stated.

It's explicitly shown to be false: He says he can beat Boo, then comes back beaten up.

Basically I'd say this to you. Why is Mikey, Dbzeta.net Forum Poster, more knowledgeable about Gotenks power than the actual character? Than the characters in the story? You are not. Neither am I.

I never claimed to know more than the characters.

Our job is to listen to the characters

Even when they're wrong?

to listen to the author and not try to manipulate what they are trying to tell us.

You're not the author, so how do you know what he's trying to tell us?

It's not a hard system, it's simply the right way. Assume the characters are speaking the truth, not evaluate what they are saying.

You say it's not a hard system, but you can't even follow it yourself? "A character is right until proven wrong", yet you're trying to argue that Gotenks is right despite being proven wrong?

ego driven, biased thought

The irony is too much.

 

[p123]

Yikes. You are not understanding my point. To sum it up, they are correct until proven false, yet we don't just dismiss what they say and do whatever the fuck we want. We investigate where their confidence stemmed from and assume that they aren't talking out of their ass unless proven otherwise. We try to figure out why they would be confident.

I won't nitpick with you much after this though, you are beneath me and a waste of my precious time. You either have the competency to grasp what I'm saying or you can stay being an incompetent piece of shit like you prefer. Choice is yours, but I don't give a shit about anything you have to say, impress me or get fucked. I can easily just turn this into a bullying session if you so choose, perhaps that will be more entertaining for me. I don't do the over explaining things, that's the job referred to guys like KP, Kyo, Jack etc. I don't give a fuck. I say what I say and shit on people who can't keep up. Pick which person you want to be and I will oblige you.

 

[Symbiote]

This is very amusing to me.

 

[Six Trails]

Yikes. You are not understanding my point. To sum it up, they are correct until proven false, yet we don't just dismiss what they say and do whatever the fuck we want. We investigate where their confidence stemmed from and assume that they aren't talking out of their ass unless proven otherwise. We try to figure out why they would be confident.

Gotenks' confidence stemmed from cockiness, is that really not obvious enough? Again, he'd have to be stronger than SS3 Goku to think he had a chance, which we know he is clearly not. What is there to not understand?

I can easily just turn this into a bullying session if you so choose, perhaps that will be more entertaining for me. I don't do the over explaining things, that's the job referred to guys like KP, Kyo, Jack etc. I don't give a fuck. I say what I say and shit on people who can't keep up. Pick which person you want to be and I will oblige you.

If you think that's a good idea, then go ahead and see what happens. Act as tough as you want, but it's obvious who has more power in this situation.

 

[p123]

Oh I will, I don't need your permission. I will use you as a shit rag for as long as I see fit. Now go ahead and do what you are told like the good little boy that you are. Keep your mouth shut and I won't have to get aggressive with you.

 

[SSJ2]

Why the fuck is a Gotenks debate turning into this? Shut the fuck up you filthy faggots.

 

[p123]

Imagine getting into a real life fight over Gotenks strength. Haha, honestly, I'm down. Hahahaah I'll die for this shit!

 

[SSJ2]

"Gotenks is stronger than Majin Vegeta"

"Nah man, I disagree"

"M8, if you say that one more time I'm fucking dropping you, you little beta cuck."

 

[p123]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA

You better not lie about GOTENKS STRENGTH ON MY LANDS BOY