Base Saiyans (Boo saga)

[Evil Vegeta]

How does this change the fact that Gohan was the most dangerous on the Earth team? It's stated by the same guy that tore through the team. Tagoma used the opportunity to blast through Shisami to take Gohan down because he was their most dangerous enemy. Therefore, Base Gohan>Piccolo. That means, Base Gohan>Freeza on Namek. Nothing more, nothing less.

Piccolo was scared because of Kaioshin's power and status. Why is Kaioshin scared of Yakon if he could one-shot a stronger Freeza? Or maybe Freeza isn't stronger than Yakon. And don't make me laugh about the "secondary source" stuff when you'll literally use it when it's convenient.

 

[Southern Gothic]

I hate to stand on both sides of the argument, but I believe that, during the Boo Saga, the Base Saiyans were intended to have been overpowered. When BoG/FnF was being made, it seems that was pulled back, and their Base Forms were made a little more reasonable. A retcon, perhaps. It happens. Darth Vader wasn't initially intended to be Luke's father, but that is how it ended up working out.

Taking the Boo Saga on its own, I agree with those placing the Base Saiyans at Kamiccolo-Android 17 range.

 

[sei'taer]

Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Freeza

Since this topic specifically states it's during the buu saga, nothing more really needs to be said than this.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Idk what you're talking about.

I was making fun of your logic and pointing out its flaws.

Still, Gohan's speculation was never proven so....

 

[kriss-]

Idk what you're talking about.

I was making fun of your logic and pointing out its flaws.

Still, Gohan's speculation was never proven so....

Goku's speculation was never proven so....

 

[withheldforprivacy]

How strong do you think they are? Do you think an exaggeration to have base Goku and Vegeta approaching Perfect Cell tier?

Without bothering reading the previous 44 posts, my answer is: By old material, they're at most Sixteen tier, if you don't change SSJ multiplier,
or above Semi Cell, if you go with 10x multiplier. BOG, however, indicates AT changed his mind and i also think that, from a writing point of
view, it's best to have them below Freeza. I'm not against MSSJ having a greater multiplier than SSJ, so that Base Saiyans can remain weak.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I was making fun of your logic and pointing out its flaws.

Still, Gohan's speculation was never proven so....

Goku's speculation was never proven so....

What's Goku's speculation? 1

 

[Six Trails]

Gohan never implied he'd have a hard time with Kibito. He just said he'd have a hard time beating Kibito without showing off his superhuman strength in front of his friends and the audience. Kibito is significantly weaker.

As for the topic, Base Saiyans approaching Perfect Cell seems pretty absurd as that'd mean they're even stronger than FPSS Kid Gohan from the Cell Games, which doesn't seem to be the case if SS2 Goku and SS2 Vegeta are only marginally stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan.

 

[Papasmurf]

GT is canon and established base Goku > Cell + Freeza

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I have them between pre RoSaT Kamiccolo and Android 16.

 

[ahill1]

@GokhanDBZfan

Freeza is still somewhat used as a measuring stick for Boo's strength and Goku still considers it '' amazin' '' for Boo to able to kill the Kaioshins, who could kill Freeza in one hit.

Freeza being still relevant in the Boo saga is absurd though, when Piccolo himself can one-shot a guy, who can one-shot a guy, who can one-shot Freeza.

Beyond that, there is Future Trunks still requiring to use Super Saiyan to beat the androids

That's before the Boo saga though. I'm talking about the Boo saga Saiyans.

Android 18 being stronger than Base form Goten and Trunks, who are relevant to the adult Super Saiyans.

Yeah, but I'm talking more specifically to the adult Saiyans (should have specified it better). All I have to do is nerf the SSJ multiplier for the adults and increase the SSJ multiplier for the kids. Look at my numbers:


Cell Games

Piccolo - 14,000,000,000
Future Trunks - 320,000,000
~SSJ - 16,000,000,000
Vegeta - 330,000,000
~SSJ - 16,500,000,000
Goku - 500,000,000
Cell Junior - 17,000,000,000
Goku - 500,000,000
~SSJ - 25,000,000,000
Gohan - 660,000,000
~SSJ - 33,000,000,000

Boo saga

Piccolo - 16,500,000,000
Vegeta - 16,500,000,000
~SSJ - 33,000,000,000
Goku - 18,750,000,000
~SSJ - 37,500,000,000

Kaioshin - 18,750,000,000
Yakon - 20,000,000,000

Goten - 330,000,000
~SSJ - 25,000,000,000

Present Trunks - 340,000,000
~SSJ - 25,750,000,000


What do you think?

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Freeza being still relevant in the Boo saga is absurd though, when Piccolo himself can one-shot a guy, who can one-shot a guy, who can one-shot Freeza.

It is absurd, but it shows he isn't a complete garbage and it actually supports the statements from the new material.

That's before the Boo saga though. I'm talking about the Boo saga Saiyans.

Sure, but Cell Games Trunks isn't probably many times weaker than CG Gohan in the same transformation.

Yeah, but I'm talking more specifically to the adult Saiyans (should have specified it better). All I have to do is nerf the SSJ multiplier for the adults and increase the SSJ multiplier for the kids. Look at my numbers:


Cell Games

Piccolo - 14,000,000,000
Future Trunks - 320,000,000
~SSJ - 16,000,000,000
Vegeta - 330,000,000
~SSJ - 16,500,000,000
Goku - 500,000,000
Cell Junior - 17,000,000,000
Goku - 500,000,000
~SSJ - 25,000,000,000
Gohan - 660,000,000
~SSJ - 33,000,000,000

Boo saga

Piccolo - 16,500,000,000
Vegeta - 16,500,000,000
~SSJ - 33,000,000,000
Goku - 18,750,000,000
~SSJ - 37,500,000,000

Kaioshin - 18,750,000,000
Yakon - 20,000,000,000

Goten - 330,000,000
~SSJ - 25,000,000,000

Present Trunks - 340,000,000
~SSJ - 25,750,000,000


What do you think?

But why should the multiplier be different for the kids?
Regarding the power levels, they are a bit too high in my opinion.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Not to derail, but how strong is Yakon?

 

[ahill1]

@GokhanDBZfan

It is absurd, but it shows he isn't a complete garbage and it actually supports the statements from the new material.

But he is completely garbage. Freeza is nothing to guys like #17 or #18 and a guy much stronger than them [Piccolo] was considered pretty much useless.

Sure, but Cell Games Trunks isn't probably many times weaker than CG Gohan in the same transformation.

Yeah, I agree. I don't see a need to have base Future Trunks (Cell Games) that strong, better saying he is probably weaker than the Future Androids, but the problem is that the adult base Saiyans from Boo saga are implied to be that strong.

But why should the multiplier be different for the kids?

Because, like you said, the base kids are probably weaker than 18, while base Vegeta was enough to surprise Kaioshin and be confident in winning the tournament knowing opponents like Piccolo would participate (even though Piccolo wasn't in the spaceship in that moment). Green Man should be way stronger than guys like Semi Cell.

 

[ahill1]

Not to derail, but how strong is Yakon?

I had him in my list stronger than the Cell Juniors. This could seem madness, but now that I'm considering the base Saiyans to be at least up there with Boo saga Piccolo, I don't think it's too far fetched to think it.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I'm starting to change my mind on the Base Saiyans as well.

 

[ahill1]

I'm starting to change my mind on the Base Saiyans as well.

I don't see a need to have pre Boo saga Saiyans that strong. In fact, I have base Gohan (Cell Games) still weaker than Android #16. But Akira Toriyama seems to imply that at least the base adult Saiyans in the Boo saga are pretty strong, with implications of them being able to win the tournament even with Piccolo there. I know that's odd to have base Goku and Vegeta going from weaker than #17 to being at Cell Juniors level, but that what the Boo saga implies IMO. What do u think?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, the Cell Games Base Saiyans are hard to gauge. The Boo saga Base Saiyans (mainly Goku and Vegeta) seem to be portrayed as beasts. Kaioshin thinks he'd lose to Goku upon meeting him, yet is totally shocked that Base Vegeta was so powerful. Goku can fight Yakon only, but Kaioshin believes all of them need to fight Yakon together. At the very least, this implies Kaioshin can't handle Yakon alone. The Daizenshuu also says Kaioshin is scared of Yakon, which would only make sense if power was a factor. I doubt it's because Yakon was huge and ugly.

I dunno, man. I see no reason for him to be that perplexed over such a weak power when he could one-shot a Freeza level being.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, the Cell Games Base Saiyans are hard to gauge. The Boo saga Base Saiyans (mainly Goku and Vegeta) seem to be portrayed as beasts. Kaioshin thinks he'd lose to Goku upon meeting him, yet is totally shocked that Base Vegeta was so powerful. Goku can fight Yakon only, but Kaioshin believes all of them need to fight Yakon together. At the very least, this implies Kaioshin can't handle Yakon alone. The Daizenshuu also says Kaioshin is scared of Yakon, which would only make sense if power was a factor. I doubt it's because Yakon was huge and ugly.

I dunno, man. I see no reason for him to be that perplexed over such a weak power when he could one-shot a Freeza level being.

Yeah, I always had a hard time imagining Kaioshin multi-fold stronger than the adult base Saiyans. Of course, there's also that point of him being just cautious and wanting to play safe, but I dunno. I mean it's a valid explanation, but he should be able to sense base Vegeta's power right? I don't think he'd be all that impressed if Vegeta's chi was really that weak.

In the past I went with the Piccolo >>> base Saiyans > Kaioshin route. But now I'm thinking, what if Kaioshin is really stronger than Piccolo and the base Saiyans are up there with Kaioshin and Piccolo and the latter is really a beast in the Cell Games? This would make the base Saiyans pretty strong, no? I know that doesn't make sense to have Cell Games base Saiyans at #17's level and Boo saga base Saiyans at Cell Juniors level, but that's Boo saga lol. The only problem with that it's base Gohan (Boo saga) being > base Gohan (Cell Games) and it contradicts Vegeta saying in Chibi Trunks 1st appearance that base Gohan looks rusty, implying base Gohan got weaker as well.

How strong do you have Yakon?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Base Gohan might be the one I'd exclude. Since he's done nothing but grow weaker, there's no way it'd make sense for him to be that strong. The only way you could make this work is by adhering to the Daiz's explanation of Gohan's power not changing at all, which would make him pretty ridiculous in Base during the Cell Games.

Kaioshin can be cautious, but he seemed quite sure Goku would've won without knowing how strong Goku was as a Super Saiyan. Since Kaioshin wondered if Super Saiyan was even that powerful, that tells me he probably assumed Goku and Vegeta's transformed states weren't on the same level as Gohan's. I don't believe Kaioshin knew the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 just yet.

Really not sure how strong Yakon is. For Kaioshin to fear him, that tells me he definitely can't one-shot him. I'd put him somewhere around #16 and Semi-Cell at the very least. Anything less and it doesn't make any sense. I know it makes the Base Saiyans seem strong, but if Kaioshin is above Piccolo, Yakon can't be a weakling.