Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

[FeatsofPower]

It's possible, but I'm running with the 2x multiplier and running with SSJ Goku being close to SSJ2 Vegeta sounds nasty. If the multiplier was 4-5x SSJ1, I surely would keep the 1.5x gap.

Seems like a backwards approach to things. You should be thinking in reverse, more like, Super Saiyan 2 can't be merely a 2x multiplier because the gap between Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga would make Ssj Goku way too close to Ssj2 Vegeta.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Check this out...

Goku 150
Vegeta 90
Gohan 60
Pui Pui 50
Expected Saiyans 35
Kaioshin 30


This saga might be a repeat of the Androids saga, where Vegeta's personality and attitude makes him appear much more superior than he is.

Vegeta himself admits that he could not close the gap on Goku, needs to sell his soul to have a chance. That sounds like a tremendous gap. We've probably downplayed this gap this whole time to make the numbers look reasonable. But this might be a better way.

Vegeta's Majin boost be a huge one, not a puny one. Nothing wrong with Vegeta being able to wipe the floor with Gohan, how big this gap needs to be should vary.

But remember, Vegeta is quite confident in going up against Gohan, and it doesn't seem to be based solely on Gohan losing tons of power. He does question enraged Gohan, which signifies a boosted Gohan, but regular Base/SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan should be inferior to Vegeta. Vegeta has gotten way stronger and can probably beat all versions of Kid Gohan except for the Enraged one.

This is starting to make a little sense to me.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This is the issue with your argument.

How can you answer the following?

Did Badibi expect Pui Pui to kill the Saiyans in front of Kaioshin? What did he expect Kaioshin to do while Pui Pui was killing them?

Either not fight at all (as it happened) or die with with the Saiyans. What’s stopping him from paralyzing Pocus so the Saiyans can attack him while he’s stuck? How did Babidi fail to count that?

Seems like a backwards approach to things. You should be thinking in reverse, more like, Super Saiyan 2 can't be merely a 2x multiplier because the gap between Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga would make Ssj Goku way too close to Ssj2 Vegeta.

I want to set some limits so things won’t get out of hand. 2x multiplier is a stated fact, big gap is a fan theory. Vegeta says the gaps between their geniuses wouldn’t change.

The gap between Goku and Vegeta is like what Monster Zarbon had over him. They would be done in seconds, maybe minutes if Goku is toying.

But if I had this:
Goku: 150 - 300
Vegeta: 100 - 200
Gohan: 75 - 150

It wouldn’t contradict anything, would it?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Either not fight at all (as it happened) or die with with the Saiyans. What’s stopping him from paralyzing Pocus so the Saiyans can attack him while he’s stuck? How did Babidi fail to count that?

Why would Kaioshin not fight at all if the Saiyans are losing?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why would Kaioshin not fight at all if the Saiyans are losing?

Dunno, but unfortunately it can’t be that straightforward. As I said, why can’t Shin hold Pui Pui? He can hold SSJ2 tiers, what measures has Babidi taken against that? Arguably even Dabra would fall for that.

Which one is easier to assume: That Babidi underestimated Shin’s abilities, or that his goons are magically immune to paralysis? And if Babidi underestimated that, what else did he underestimate?

I’m not necessarily arguing for Shin > Yakon/Pocus, but I think we can both agree Babidi’s plan is spotty. He’s like this saga’s Dr Gero.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Dunno, but unfortunately it can’t be that straightforward. As I said, why can’t Shin hold Pui Pui? He can hold SSJ2 tiers, what measures has Babidi taken against that? Arguably even Dabra would fall for that.

Which one is easier to assume: That Babidi underestimated Shin’s abilities, or that his goons are magically immune to paralysis? And if Babidi underestimated that, what else did he underestimate?

I’m not necessarily arguing for Shin > Yakon/Pocus, but I think we can both agree Babidi’s plan is spotty. He’s like this saga’s Dr Gero.

What seems likely is that our understanding of his paralysis powers are flawed. Just like how it’s not so easy for Solar Flare Kienzan combo to be used all the time, Kaioshins psychic abilities have their limits for reasons unknown.

We can’t somehow rewrite the story because our logic seems superior. The in universe logic seems that despite Kaioshins psychic abilities, he still doesn’t want the smoke with Pui Pui, it’s quite likely for one reason or another his abilities would have failed.

So the logical option is to accept what the story is given. That Pui Pui is too much for a combination of 4 fighters on Shins level at least from a power level perspective.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Dunno, but unfortunately it can’t be that straightforward. As I said, why can’t Shin hold Pui Pui? He can hold SSJ2 tiers, what measures has Babidi taken against that? Arguably even Dabra would fall for that.

Which one is easier to assume: That Babidi underestimated Shin’s abilities, or that his goons are magically immune to paralysis? And if Babidi underestimated that, what else did he underestimate?

I’m not necessarily arguing for Shin > Yakon/Pocus, but I think we can both agree Babidi’s plan is spotty. He’s like this saga’s Dr Gero.

What seems likely is that our understanding of his paralysis powers are flawed. Just like how it’s not so easy for Solar Flare Kienzan combo to be used all the time, Kaioshins psychic abilities have their limits for reasons unknown.

We can’t somehow rewrite the story because our logic seems superior. The in universe logic seems that despite Kaioshins psychic abilities, he still doesn’t want the smoke with Pui Pui, it’s quite likely for one reason or another his abilities would have failed.

So the logical option is to accept what the story is given. That Pui Pui is too much for a combination of 4 fighters on Shins level at least from a power leve

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What seems likely is that our understanding of his paralysis powers are flawed. Just like how it’s not so easy for Solar Flare Kienzan combo to be used all the time, Kaioshins psychic abilities have their limits for reasons unknown.

We can’t somehow rewrite the story because our logic seems superior. The in universe logic seems that despite Kaioshins psychic abilities, he still doesn’t want the smoke with Pui Pui, it’s quite likely for one reason or another his abilities would have failed.

So the logical option is to accept what the story is given. That Pui Pui is too much for a combination of 4 fighters on Shins level at least from a power leve

This is correct. It’s not a matter of rewriting the story, quite the opposite - I’m just asking if we’re looking from the right angle. Solar Flare + Kienzan should be the ultimate weapon, but it isn’t because of PIS. Paralysis is going to be the same. Or maybe Shin only got Gohan because he was off guard? He said something like “I’m not sure I can hold such strong energy”.

But I have yet to see anything suggesting Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin. Babidi didn’t even know they were Saiyans! And I think Shin’s “I never dreamed they were this powerful” has more impact if Saiyans > Shin > Expected Base Saiyans.

 

[FeatsofPower]

This is correct. It’s not a matter of rewriting the story, quite the opposite - I’m just asking if we’re looking from the right angle.

But that's exactly what you are doing. You have to think from an in-universe perspective. Not from our own perspective.

Solar Flare + Kienzan should be the ultimate weapon, but it isn’t because of PIS. Paralysis is going to be the same.

No, this is the incorrect way to look at it. Goku calls Freeza's double Kienzan an amatuer move. There's something we are missing. We don't understand exactly why our logic doesn't work in their universe, but their universe's logic applies over ours. Kaioshin's paralysis is not the game changer you think it is.

Or maybe Shin only got Gohan because he was off guard? He said something like “I’m not sure I can hold such strong energy”.

Now you are talking. Gohan might be extremely powerful, but he's off guard, and he's not even facing Shin, while also being attacked. He's distracted, off guard, and unaware of where the paralysis is coming from. These factors cannot be dismissed. Shin wants 0 smoke with Dabura, so we are missing something. Surely if Gohan can be restrained, so can Dabura, and Dabura is probably only Super Saiyan 1 level as well. We are missing something. The fact we are missing something does not change the contextual logic of their universe. We cannot hyper-impose our own universe's logic onto theirs. It doesn't work.

But I have yet to see anything suggesting Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin.

Because you weren't paying attention. The introduction of Shin leads us to believe Goku > Shin. Shin admits inferiority right off of the bat. Shin sees the competitive nature of the Saiyans and says that he's not sure who's strongest among the three of them, but that Dabura is top dog in his realm.

All depictions of the Saiyans are of them greatly exceeding Shin's expectations and his bewilderment at their power. This includes their base power.

Babidi didn’t even know they were Saiyans!

Completely irrelevant. Saiyans throughout history have been so weak they might as well be humans at this stage of the game. At the, "strongest fighters in the universe" stage of the game.

And I think Shin’s “I never dreamed they were this powerful” has more impact if Saiyans > Shin > Expected Base Saiyans.

Your personal feelings are irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Shin, Badibi, and Dabura all feel that the Saiyans are superior to Shin, and then are all blown away to find out that they are even that much stronger than their expectations. That is the context of the story. There is no other interpretation. This is how the story reads. Your dislike of the mess the author makes means nothing to what is actually happening.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But that's exactly what you are doing. You have to think from an in-universe perspective. Not from our own perspective.

But the in-universe perspective is flawed. This is not how Toriyama thought when writing the story. We must wonder “What was AT thinking when he wrote this?” because he commands the characters and can make them act irrational. Shin forgetting SSJ2 Gohan is irrational, even if you try explain it with PTSD, it still means he’s not acting logically.

No, this is the incorrect way to look at it. Goku calls Freeza's double Kienzan an amatuer move. There's something we are missing. We don't understand exactly why our logic doesn't work in their universe, but their universe's logic applies over ours. Kaioshin's paralysis is not the game changer you think it is.

But that was just the Kienzan. The Kienzan/Solar Flare combo was never tried, because the writers know it’s too OP.

Goku thinks the Kienzan is basic because he can dodge it all day. But he couldn’t just block, deflect or blast it away and had to keep dodging.

Because you weren't paying attention. The introduction of Shin leads us to believe Goku > Shin. Shin admits inferiority right off of the bat. Shin sees the competitive nature of the Saiyans and says that he's not sure who's strongest among the three of them, but that Dabura is top dog in his realm.

All depictions of the Saiyans are of them greatly exceeding Shin's expectations and his bewilderment at their power. This includes their base power.

First off, we’re talking about expected Saiyans, so their “depictions” are irrelevant.

When Shin meets Goku, he’s aware of Super Saiyan. Kibito doesn’t give a shit about Base Gohan and asks him to transform. They don’t really care about Base Saiyans, and when Shin forgets about SSJ inside the ship he thinks they’re not strong enough for Babidi’s men. It takes him seeing Base Vegeta to realize they are strong without transforming.

Completely irrelevant. Saiyans throughout history have been so weak they might as well be humans at this stage of the game. At the, "strongest fighters in the universe" stage of the game.

And Babidi’s perspective is based on history. He’s expecting Part 1 level fighters, not fighters above this universe’s supreme god because anyone that strong is already on his side. There’s some hype about Shin’s power initially (Scares Piccolo, isn’t freaked out by Gohan and holds him, Majin Vegeta even says he was supposed to be super powerful), and it’s not revealed he’s a weakling until they start fighting on the ship.

Your personal feelings are irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Shin, Badibi, and Dabura all feel that the Saiyans are superior to Shin, and then are all blown away to find out that they are even that much stronger than their expectations. That is the context of the story. There is no other interpretation. This is how the story reads. Your dislike of the mess the author makes means nothing to what is actually happening.

Toriyama himself admits the writing is incredibly sloppy in the Boo Saga. You’re not teaching me some lost secret about Toriyama’s subconscious genius, we’re discussing this as equals because the writer was tired and the story is confusing and open to interpretation.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Base Gohan outperformed Kibito in strength.

Gohan never considered using Super Saiyan to fight Kibito, despite his partner making Piccolo quit.

The evidence is insurmountable.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Who cares about Gohan? This is about what Shin and Babidi expected. Gohan doesn’t look very confident on fighting Kibito there anyway.

Kibito looked him in the eye and said “Transform”. He didn’t give a shit about Base Gohan and Spopovich’s Kili Meter was at zero on him. They thought only SSJ Gohan mattered and didn’t know Base Gohan was also strong.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Who cares about Gohan?

You should. When all the characters are heading in one direction, it's clear the author is leading you down a road. Rejecting the road is pointless, the author's intention is clear.

This is about what Shin and Babidi expected.

Yes, there expectations are aligned. They have some basic information on each other so their assumptions should be highlighted.

Gohan doesn’t look very confident on fighting Kibito there anyway.

It's not about confidence, he's concerned with his entire life being messed up. He intends to be a scholar and this is a good school. His priority is not even Kibito, he just knows he's going to use super human ability to fight him for sure and that is what troubles him.

Kibito looked him in the eye and said “Transform”. He didn’t give a shit about Base Gohan and Spopovich’s Kili Meter was at zero on him.

Saiyans are suppressed. Base Gohan is superior to Pui Pui, who would for sure send the Killi meter spinning, Badibi would love to find another Pui Pui for his collection.

They thought only SSJ Gohan mattered and didn’t know Base Gohan was also strong.

The Base Saiyans surpassed their expectations for the Super Saiyans. The Base Saiyans are absurdly strong.

Remember, Shin is expecting the likes of people like Pui Pui and is completely shocked by Yakon and Dabura.

The Super Saiyan power they are expecting is probably right in line with someone Pui Pui can easily beat.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You should. When all the characters are heading in one direction, it's clear the author is leading you down a road. Rejecting the road is pointless, the author's intention is clear.

I think you're missing my point a bit. I agree that Base Saiyans > Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Piccolo. It's just that there's no such thing as "Expected Saiyans" between Pui and Shin.

Also worth pointing out the author himself had no idea what he was aiming for, so the road can be expected to be bumpy.

Yes, there expectations are aligned. They have some basic information on each other so their assumptions should be highlighted.

There's the big, obvious difference though - Babidi thinks Pui Pui wins, Shin thinks they can win. You go for a middle ground by sticking that 1.4x between the Saiyans and Pui Pui, but truth is that Shin has higher expectations than Babidi.

Another thing is, I don't think attaching numbers to someone's expectations works, because Shin himself probably doesn't have a fixed number in mind. If he expected Saiyans to be exactly 35, would he be surprised if they were a 40? a 50? Would he be surprised if Vegeta was just even with or slightly below Pui Pui?

It's not about confidence, he's concerned with his entire life being messed up. He intends to be a scholar and this is a good school. His priority is not even Kibito, he just knows he's going to use super human ability to fight him for sure and that is what troubles him.

But Super Saiyan is part of his secret as the Golden Warrior.

This logic is so weird. Gohan promised he wouldn't use SSJ on the tournament, so what's the big deal about him not even considering it on Kibito?

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think you're missing my point a bit. I agree that Base Saiyans > Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Piccolo. It's just that there's no such thing as "Expected Saiyans" between Pui and Shin.

This is incorrect. There is an expectation of how the Saiyans are likely to perform that is shown by the predictions made by several characters.

“They have marvelous energy”

“I wouldn’t hope to be able to defeat you Goku”

“One of you is the strongest in this realm, but he (Dabura) is the strongest in the Demon Realm.”

“Pui Pui finish them off but take it serious they might be tougher than you think”

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

“One of you is the strongest in this realm, but he (Dabura) is the strongest in the Demon Realm.”

What realm is Pui Pui from again?

Look at the lines you posted and see you just proved my point:

You go for a middle ground by sticking that 1.4x between the Saiyans and Pui Pui, but truth is that Shin has higher expectations than Babidi.

Shin thought they could manage something before Dabra shows up. Even when Yakon shows up, he stands his ground and says “We have to work together!” instead of “It’s all over!”. He doesn’t think they can just barely beat Pui Pui.

Pui Pui: 100
Expected Saiyans: 90?
Kaioshin: 80

And as I haven’t seen you address yet, Babidi thinks a number normal humans can give plenty of energy. His definition of “marvelous energy” is very different from ours.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yes, Shin thinks if they combine all of their might they can possibly win.

Badibi believes that if Pui Pui is not on guard he can lose.

Expected Saiyans being 70-75% of Pui Pui should suffice. Shin is probably like 80-90% of their power.

 

[Goku9001]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Gohan was never thinking about Super Saiyan until Kibito explicitly asks him to do it. Gohan's concerns have to do with exposing his superhuman abilities. That's why he questions if he could win by "accident". I've made a post about this back on neoseeker but I don't even remember which thread it was on. I'd have to find it since I'm too lazy to pull up the evidence.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes, Shin thinks if they combine all of their might they can possibly win.

Badibi believes that if Pui Pui is not on guard he can lose.

Expected Saiyans being 70-75% of Pui Pui should suffice. Shin is probably like 80-90% of their power.

So Shin doesn’t think they can beat the 2nd fighter?

Pui Pui makes a offhand comment about “having trouble” if he’s not careful. It’s never suggested he may lose. In fact, Babidi expected the fight to be over in seconds.

@GreatSaiyaman123

Gohan was never thinking about Super Saiyan until Kibito explicitly asks him to do it. Gohan's concerns have to do with exposing his superhuman abilities. That's why he questions if he could win by "accident". I've made a post about this back on neoseeker but I don't even remember which thread it was on. I'd have to find it since I'm too lazy to pull up the evidence.

So Gohan isn’t thinking about something he promised not to use before. Big deal. Super Saiyan is a superhuman ability and part of his secret identity anyway.

I can try to look up the neo thread.

 

[FeatsofPower]

So Shin doesn’t think they can beat the 2nd fighter?

The 2nd fighter shouldn’t be all too different than Pui Pui. And Kaioshin needs the help of the Saiyans to fight Badibis warriors and is not certain about victory despite not knowing about Yakon and Dabura. The Pui Puis of the world can give Kaioshin and the Saiyans a run for their money.

Pui Pui makes a offhand comment about “having trouble” if he’s not careful. It’s never suggested he may lose. In fact, Babidi expected the fight to be over in seconds.

Exactly, they are strong enough to be disposed of quickly, yet if he’s completely careless he can get caught. Pui Pui with somewhere around a 1.5x advantage over the Expsfted Saiyans sounds about right.