Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

[VampireWicked]

My estimated PowerLevels after Frieza's defeat on Namek to BattleOfTheGods based on the material.

Namek SuperSaiyan Goku 150Mil
Yardrat SuperSaiyan Goku 150 Mil
SuperSaiyan FutureGohan 2 Arms 130Mil
SuperSaiyan FutureGohan 1 Arm 130 Mil
SuperSaiyan FutureTrunks 120 Mil
Future Android 17 Half Power170Mil
Future Android 18 Half Power 168Mil
Future Android 17 Full Power 340Mil
Future Android 18 Full Power 336Mil
Present Android 17 400Mil
Present Android 18 398Mil
Metal Frieza 50% 70Mil
Metal Frieza 100% 140Mil
Base KidTrunks Buu Arc 2.5Mil
Base KidGoten Buu Arc 2.2Mil
SuperSaiyan Buu Arc KidTrunks 125Mil
SuperSaiyan Buu Arc KidGoten 110Mil
Piccolo Nail/Kami Fusion 390Mil
Kaioshin Buu Arc 520Mil
SuperSaiyan Grade 2 FutureTrunks 850Mil
SuperSaiyan Grade 2 Vegeta 870Mil
SuperSaiyan Grade 3 FutureTrunks 990Mil
SuperSaiyan Grade 3 Vegeta 1Bil
SuperSaiyan Grade 4 Goku Half Power 1.5Bil
SuperSaiyan Grade 4 Full Power 1Bil 400Mil
SuperSaiyan Grade 4 Teen Gohan 1Bil 800Mil
AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Teen Gohan 3Bil 600Mil
AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Buu Arc Goku 3Bil 900Mil
AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Buu Arc Vegeta 3Bil 700Mil
AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Buu Arc Majin Vegeta 3Bil 900Mil
SuperSaiyan 3 Buu Arc Goku 15Bil 600Mil
ChubbyBuu Buu Arc 6Bil
GreyBuu Buu Arc 7Bil
SuperBuu Buu Arc 9Bil
SuperSaiyan 3 Gotenks 11Bil
Ultimate Gohan Buu Arc 15Bil
Super Buu (Gohan absorbed)15Bil 100Mil
KidBuu Buu Arc 15Bil 700Mil
Base Saiyans BattleOfTheGods Goku Somewhere below either 60Mil or 120Mil

 

[FeatsofPower]

If you make the Boys piss weak, then sure. The Base Kids were evidently on par with Android 18 and yet the Base Adults surpass Kaioshin. To make it so that the Boys aren't that far from the Adults, you're going to have to minimize the gains that Piccolo made.

Yeah, I just made this point as well in his thread. We think alike my friend. Piccolo has to get shortchanged, there is no other way.

 

[FeatsofPower]

As long as SSJ Boys > Base Adults it’s all fair play to me.

I doubt Piccolo is Super Vegeta level, but a 1.33x boost? Come on. That’s not a “whole different level” if Imperfect Cell could still tank and one shot him.

You are taking a subjective quote and turning it into the objective, while tossing out the objective evidence. This can't be the best approach. Piccolo must be limited by the boys respectability.

Obviously the gap will still be huge, but we have a duty to minimize this gap not enlarge it for an offhand quote. If 1.33x doesn't suit you, boost it up to 2x or so. That should cover it and the mountain of evidence supports it being quite small. Remember a 1.33x boost is seen as quite big, as someone mentioned before, Vegeta felt like a beast on a whole new level with his zenkai on Namek.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You are taking a subjective quote and turning it into the objective, while tossing out the objective evidence. This can't be the best approach. Piccolo must be limited by the boys respectability.

Obviously the gap will still be huge, but we have a duty to minimize this gap not enlarge it for an offhand quote. If 1.33x doesn't suit you, boost it up to 2x or so. That should cover it and the mountain of evidence supports it being quite small. Remember a 1.33x boost is seen as quite big, as someone mentioned before, Vegeta felt like a beast on a whole new level with his zenkai on Namek.

Unless it’s flat out said Piccolo hasn’t surpassed Imperfect Cell it’s not objective, but I get you.

But you said 1.33x was a mistake and Toriyama should’ve used 1.5x?

 

[FeatsofPower]

For Cui and Vegeta yeah

 

[Goku9001]

As long as SSJ Boys > Base Adults it’s all fair play to me.

I doubt Piccolo is Super Vegeta level, but a 1.33x boost? Come on. That’s not a “whole different level” if Imperfect Cell could still tank and one shot him.

No. The Kids can't legitimately be 49x weaker than the Adults. I sincerely doubt that this is what you got when SSJ Goten sparred with Pre-Budokai Gohan or when Trunks landed a blow on a tired Vegeta. The narrative doesn't back you up here. You're just straight-up being biased.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No. The Kids can't legitimately be 49x weaker than the Adults. I sincerely doubt that this is what you got when SSJ Goten sparred with Pre-Budokai Gohan or when Trunks landed a blow on a tired Vegeta. The narrative doesn't back you up here. You're just straight-up being biased.

Well 49x is basically just 50x by gap logic so it’s not that close lol.

But how close do the boys need to be to pull of those feats? Gohan and Vegeta weren’t bloodlusted, and Goten and Trunks obviously don’t rival them. DBS has people far weaker pull similar feats (Caulifla vs Goku).

Feats told be Goku being 10x the boys works, and I pulled that off on my list. What do you think?

 

[Goku9001]

Well 49x is basically just 50x by gap logic so it’s not that close lol.

But how close do the boys need to be to pull of those feats? Gohan and Vegeta weren’t bloodlusted, and Goten and Trunks obviously don’t rival them. DBS has people far weaker pull similar feats (Caulifla vs Goku).

Feats told be Goku being 10x the boys works, and I pulled that off on my list. What do you think?

Because from a narrative standpoint, the Boys competing with the Adults to some degree wouldn't make any sense if they were meant to be significantly weaker in the first place.

This is probably the closest I could probably have it but it's tough since Super established that the kids are at least on par with the Cell Jrs.

Android 18: 100
Base Trunks: 100+
Piccolo: 130
Kaioshin: 180
Expected Saiyans: 200
Pui Pui: 250
Base Gohan: 300
Base Vegeta: 400
Base Goku: 500

 

[FeatsofPower]

This is probably the closest I could probably have it but it's tough since Super established that the kids are at least on par with the Cell Jrs.

Yeah, honestly, without Super's influence, this would have been much easier. We wouldn't be so concerned about making them relevant to CG powers. We usually do that anyway, because of the sparring, but if we actually take this Base > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Boys stuff seriously, then it forces the logic stronger.

The boys aren't necessarily Cell Jr level, they are being toyed with, but they have to be somewhat close.

I think this issue drives home the point of Super Saiyan being 10x being an impossibility. Wouldn't you say?

That list you got there looks pretty good. Are you going with the idea Kid Gohan didn't use a rage boost?

 

[FeatsofPower]

I do think there may be a potential error though with Gohan being so close to Goku here.

Fatigued Majin Vegeta/Goku >> Initial Buu

Right? Now Gohan needed his true strength to probably beat him... Hmm..

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think we got a double standard here. Why is Goten and Trunks fighting the Cell Jrs a real feat when Piccolo fighting isn’t? The boys don’t do anything besides survive.

Fatigued Majin Vegeta/Goku >> Initial Buu

I hadn’t thought about that. Hm…

SSJ2 Goku: 150
~ Weakened: 75

Majin Boo: 75-

SSJ Gohan: 37.5
~ SSJ2 (True power): 75+

This sort of proves Gohan was a SSJ1, doesn’t it? Or that SSJ2 Gohan was many times below SSJ2 Goku.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think we got a double standard here. Why is Goten and Trunks fighting the Cell Jrs a real feat when Piccolo fighting isn’t? The boys don’t do anything besides survive.

Agreed. I don't think the boys have to be uberly strong. As close as we can to Cell Jr but it doesn't have to be super perfect.

This sort of proves Gohan was a SSJ1, doesn’t it? Or that SSJ2 Gohan was many times below SSJ2 Goku.

Indeed it does. There's a lot of things that prove Gohan was only a Super Saiyan. This is one of them.

 

[Goku9001]

I think we got a double standard here. Why is Goten and Trunks fighting the Cell Jrs a real feat when Piccolo fighting isn’t? The boys don’t do anything besides survive.



I hadn’t thought about that. Hm…

SSJ2 Goku: 150
~ Weakened: 75

Majin Boo: 75-

SSJ Gohan: 37.5
~ SSJ2 (True power): 75+

This sort of proves Gohan was a SSJ1, doesn’t it? Or that SSJ2 Gohan was many times below SSJ2 Goku.

Why is Weakened Goku at a 75?

 

[Goku9001]

Yeah, honestly, without Super's influence, this would have been much easier. We wouldn't be so concerned about making them relevant to CG powers. We usually do that anyway, because of the sparring, but if we actually take this Base > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Boys stuff seriously, then it forces the logic stronger.

The boys aren't necessarily Cell Jr level, they are being toyed with, but they have to be somewhat close.

I think this issue drives home the point of Super Saiyan being 10x being an impossibility. Wouldn't you say?

That list you got there looks pretty good. Are you going with the idea Kid Gohan didn't use a rage boost?

Yes. I don't believe Kid Gohan ever got a rage boost. I'm trying to minimize the difference between the kids and the adults the best I can but it's clear that Base Adults > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Kids ~ Android 18 makes that very difficult. Super implies that the Kids are fairly close to the Cell Juniors but there's only so much you can do to expand the gap between CG Vegeta/Trunks and Kid Gohan since Kid Gohan definitely wasn't many times stronger than CG Goku was.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yes. I don't believe Kid Gohan ever got a rage boost. I'm trying to minimize the difference between the kids and the adults the best I can but it's clear that Base Adults > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Kids ~ Android 18 makes that very difficult. Super implies that the Kids are fairly close to the Cell Juniors but there's only so much you can do to expand the gap between CG Vegeta/Trunks and Kid Gohan since Kid Gohan definitely wasn't many times stronger than CG Goku was.

That’s why the rage boost makes it easier, by allowing Kid Gohan and Goku to be respectably lower it opens up room. I’m not sure if you see it though. CG powers being lower significantly than Buu Saga makes life easier for the kids. Do you see it?

 

[Goku9001]

That’s why the rage boost makes it easier, by allowing Kid Gohan and Goku to be respectably lower it opens up room. I’m not sure if you see it though. CG powers being lower significantly than Buu Saga makes life easier for the kids. Do you see it?

It doesn't because you'd still have to widen the gap between the Base Kids and Base Adults regardless.

I guess it's not too bad for the Base Kids to be 3-5x weaker even if we assume Pre-Budokai Gohan was piss weak.

 

[Yoshi]

Should I have Piccolo stronger than he was against #17 or the same strength? I like to think that Toriyama either retconned his Cell Games strength or he forgot Piccolo went into the ROSAT, but some of you are suggesting that he just got x1.3-x2 stronger in the Cell Games and maintained that power in the Boo Arc.

 

[VampireWicked]

Should I have Piccolo stronger than he was against #17 or the same strength? I like to think that Toriyama either retconned his Cell Games strength or he forgot Piccolo went into the ROSAT, but some of you are suggesting that he just got x1.3-x2 stronger in the Cell Games and maintained that power in the Boo Arc.

I don't think Piccolo or any of the others simply maintained PowerLevels after whichever Arc as much as i see it as they did increase their PowerLevels, just not by the leaps & bounds many Fans wanna believe & it's like I explained on Neo.

Before Namek/Friesa the gains were huge, incredible, understandable.
Those are huge Numbers for PowerLevels, going from double digit thousands to hundreds of thousands to 3Million between Radits & Friesa makes sense. They never faced enemies like that before.
They never trained like that had to before, plus Transformations were included.

But being more dependent on Transformations, Fusion, no teachers, training/fighting more as SuperSaiyan, it would make more sense any gains that were made just creeped up the PowerLevel numbers instead of taking huge leaps.

Look at it like playing DarkSouls, at Level 10 defeating a level 20 Boss the first few times your EXP is going to be large, but continue re-fighting that Boss on the same play through your EXP doesn't scale with you & the returns diminish each time.
Why Piccolo wouldn't be leaps & bounds above Cell Games.

In short
EXP Scaling Diminish Through Repetitiveness.

 

[Yoshi]

@ahill1 Has said before that Vegeta is closer to Goku than he is to Gohan.

@FeatsofPower Since you believe in Vegeta (Boo Saga) > Kid Gohan (Cell Games), does this interfere with your opinion of:

Goku: 100
Vegeta: 66
Gohan: 50

Should it be this instead:

Goku: 100
Vegeta: 75
Gohan: 50

@Goku9001 Also said that the Base Adults are all around the same ballpark too. It would be weird for Goku to have that much of a gap on Vegeta (And Gohan) considering.

 

[FeatsofPower]

No why would it interfere?