Base Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Piccolo (Cell Games)

[FeatsofPower]

How does this go?

 

[Six Trails]

Joke thread?

 

[Classic Adamas]

Vegeta

 

[Goku9001]

By my subjective numbers, Vegeta. It's complicated because Trunks does use Super Saiyan to beat the Future Androids but he could have been proceeding cautiously.

 

[FeatsofPower]

By my subjective numbers, Vegeta. It's complicated because Trunks does use Super Saiyan to beat the Future Androids but he could have been proceeding cautiously.

Agreed, he also clowns Imperfect Cell, but according to the Buu Saga implications, Trunks should be well ahead of the Future Androids.

 

[Goku9001]

Agreed, he also clowns Imperfect Cell, but according to the Buu Saga implications, Trunks should be well ahead of the Future Androids.

That's basically what it comes down to. We are initially given the impression that the kids are somewhat competitive with the adults. We're later revealed that the Base Kids are only on par with Android 18 whereas the Base Adults are above Piccolo and likely above Kaioshin by a significant margin. That may tell us that the Buu Saga essentially changes everything in regards to the powerscaling.

CG Trunks and Vegeta shouldn't be so far removed from Teen Gohan that they wouldn't be able to at least compete with CG Piccolo let alone BS Piccolo IMO.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Vegeta

...

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Could Base Vegeta last more than 1 hit against SSJ Vegeta? Sure, the Jrs were holding back, but only so the fodder wouldn’t die.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Could Base Vegeta last more than 1 hit against SSJ Vegeta? Sure, the Jrs were holding back, but only so the fodder wouldn’t die.

Apparently so since Piccolo could. But I think Piccolo at the Cell Games is intended to be near Vegeta and Trunks and he changed his mind for the Buu Saga. I think he looked back and said, can I get away with this, and deemed he could. He wasn’t fully committed to Piccolos power so there’s nothing we can do to stop it.


Unless you intend on making Base Goku above MSSJ Gokus power which won’t work obviously.

Putting Piccolo at only double his Kamiccolo power ended up making me having Base Goku Buu Saga somewhere near Gokus Warm up Power if not more.

I haven’t worked on the Grade powers yet but Base Goku can probably beat Super Vegeta. Which is something I never even thought about.

But it seems to be likely. This is the first time we’ve actually got the Base Saiyans power correct imo

 

[Goku9001]

Even with Cell Saga implications, I don't think Piccolo was ever intended to be close to Vegeta and Trunks. Piccolo should be below 50% MSSJ Goku. He views himself as completely useless against Cell after training in the Rosat.

I think we should stick with the Buu Saga's implications. Piccolo's performance can be explained by the Cell Jrs. choosing to use the same power against the humans & Goku as they did against Piccolo. It's confirmed that only Trunks and Vegeta could compete with the Cell Jrs. so they had to be holding back by an arbitrary amount against Piccolo regardless. In contrast, completely denying the implications of the Buu Saga imposes its own consequences on the narrative. Those include the Base Saiyans believing they could win the tournament, Gohan only considering Super Saiyan against Kibito after being provoked, Dabura and Babidi recognizing the Base Saiyans as the strongest among a group including Piccolo, among many others. Those are very difficult to ignore.

 

[SSJ2]

I'll take a crack at this one @Goku9001.

Even with Cell Saga implications, I don't think Piccolo was ever intended to be close to Vegeta and Trunks. Piccolo should be below 50% MSSJ Goku. He views himself as completely useless against Cell after training in the Rosat.

I agree with this, however I don't believe Piccolo needs to be that far below 50% Goku to satisfy this. Piccolo knew 50% Goku had no chance against Cell as Goku had already established that after leaving the RoSaT. Piccolo is also smart enough to understand that Goku's 50% display wasn't his full power, so even if Piccolo got close to that level, he should know that he would be useless against Cell. I've always had Piccolo = 40% Goku which I believe works with the implications.

Piccolo's performance can be explained by the Cell Jrs. choosing to use the same power against the humans & Goku as they did against Piccolo. It's confirmed that only Trunks and Vegeta could compete with the Cell Jrs. so they had to be holding back by an arbitrary amount against Piccolo regardless.

The problem I have with this is Cell immediately instructed the Jrs to make the Z Senshi feel pain, or even kill them if they wished. We see that all of the humans were swiftly beaten until they were unconscious, and yet Piccolo is seen fighting back on several pages, let alone the chapter cover page where he looks like he's somewhat competitive. Why would Piccolo still be in relatively good shape if the Jrs had no problem nearly killing the humans? There's also the fact that the strength checker makes it clear that Cell isn't 100% only saying that Vegeta and Trunks were holding their own, there is some ambiguity there.

Those include the Base Saiyans believing they could win the tournament

This is admittedly the hardest one to hand wave. I've always looked at it as Vegeta only having interest in fighting/beating the Saiyans. Considering how hyper-focused he was on Goku during that day, can we really say with confidence that Piccolo was on his radar?

Gohan only considering Super Saiyan against Kibito after being provoked

Can you expand on this one?

Dabura and Babidi recognizing the Base Saiyans as the strongest among a group including Piccolo

This one is an odd one because even though they understood that the Saiyans had the most power, they were also confident that Pui Pui would be able to beat them, along with Kaioshin. The Z Senshi were all suppressed to 0 so I'm not sure how much we can really take away from this when we saw how clueless Babidi and Dabra were later on.

I believe this is one of those debates that will be around forever. Both sides have inconsistencies that have to be written off to suit their own argument. Looking forward to seeing what you have to say.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Personally, I only think Base > Piccolo because of Kaioshin. Vegeta specifically says he only wanted to fight Goku, but it could be argued he sees Piccolo as uninteresting fodder. The Babidi/Dabra stuff shouldn’t ever be brought up.

Using DBS logic it’s perfectly possible for Piccolo to stay on his feet against the Jrs, but on DBZ logic the closest example is Base Goku taking hits from 50% Freeza. I think Piccolo also took some licks when the Genki-Dama was being charged?

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta specifically says he only wanted to fight Goku, but it could be argued he sees Piccolo as uninteresting fodder.

Even when Piccolo was the one who surpassed Vegeta, Vegeta's only thought was being better than Goku.

Vegeta is simply uninterested in Piccolo, and power doesn't seem to be the reason why.

Using DBS logic it’s perfectly possible for Piccolo to stay on his feet against the Jrs, but on DBZ logic the closest example is Base Goku taking hits from 50% Freeza. I think Piccolo also took some licks when the Genki-Dama was being charged?

They did take hits, but Piccolo is seen actually blocking or attacking the Jrs. Goku only fought back against Freeza with Kaioken x10 and he still couldn't manage to land a blow or make Freeza block his attacks.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I've always had Piccolo = 40% Goku which I believe works with the implications.

So long as you pay the price of admission. Base Goku is multi folds above Piccolo, if you have Piccolo that strong that means Base Goku is above MSSJ Goku. Which doesn’t make any sense. Piccolo simply cannot be that strong mathematically.

 

[SSJ2]

Did you even read the post though?

 

[Pyro]

Even when Piccolo was the one who surpassed Vegeta, Vegeta's only thought was being better than Goku.

Vegeta is simply uninterested in Piccolo, and power doesn't seem to be the reason why.


They did take hits, but Piccolo is seen actually blocking or attacking the Jrs. Goku only fought back against Freeza with Kaioken x10 and he still couldn't manage to land a blow or make Freeza block his attacks.

What about when he freaked out when Kamiccolo surpassed him?

 

[SSJ2]

What about when he freaked out when Kamiccolo surpassed him?

Well sure, he was angry that he was surpassed, but it seemed to be mostly the fact that Super Saiyan had become a joke. He seemed to care more about Piccolo when both of them were fodder after Namek than anything. After that point his sole obsession was with Goku.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But this isn’t a nuanced take on the events here. Vegeta has short term goals and long term goals. He is about to enter a new realm of power potentially and Piccolo is not even a thought. It doesn’t mean Vegeta doesn’t recognize Piccolos superiority.

There is zero indication of Vegeta recognizing Piccolos superiority in Base in the Buu Saga because it doesn’t exist.

Pui Pui would most likely smash Kaioshin and Piccolo combined.

 

[SSJ2]

The fundamental difference here is that even if Piccolo was ahead of Base Vegeta, Vegeta is still exponentially stronger than Piccolo as a whole. His ego was shattered in the android arc as the legendary Super Saiyan form that he spent his whole life trying to achieve was so easily surpassed. Nobody was easily surpassing him in the Budokai, aside from Goku that is. Would it not be out of character for Vegeta to cry about Piccolo having an advantage at the Budokai (assuming he was even considering Piccolo)?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Vegeta is not dumb. He is capable of assessing his Base power versus 18 and Piccolo in a base only situation.

Gohan would never present an idea in which the Saiyans would lose.

Hey Vegeta mind taking 2nd place to Piccolo is not a real question

What you are doing is a leap of logic stick to what’s being shown