Best battle powers ever

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the 50x is pretty much undeniable, but I like this list anyway. It's a cool experiment, and a much more realistic one than ignoring in-series numbers like you do.

 

[Power Level Guy]

and a much more realistic one than ignoring in-series numbers like you do.

How is ignoring logic realistic? I stick with the in universe logic over some thrown together numbers that had no plan.

 

[ahill1]

Your logic ignore numbers straight for the manga. You say "it's super, it's official, yet you're ignoring even then original manga because you think it flows better". So saying it's a no contest for the SSJ multiplier to be 59x because it's displayed in a guidebook but ignore some numbers from the manga is using a contradictory logic... Like "I've a sensible reason to ignore even the thing given in the manga, you have not for ignoring a guidebook".

 

[Power Level Guy]

Your logic ignore numbers straight for the manga. You say "it's super, it's official, yet you're ignoring even then original manga because you think it flows better".

No, that has never been the argument. The argument has been that the author has made a set of narrative claims that completely go against the numbers he is presented. These are valid reasons for offering alternatives, this isn't a fly by night situation. The author says hey 1+1=3, when we all know 1+1=2. These are author errors, not mere reader preference.

So saying it's a no contest for the SSJ multiplier to be 59x because it's displayed in a guidebook but ignore some numbers from the manga is using a contradictory logic...

It would be. Because there's no truly valid reasonings. It's all personal preference. As mentioned before, the issues I've brought up are truly legit. You are nitpicking with your problem with the 50x boost. I've raised actual real concerns about author errors. You have not. You raised concerns about your own personal view of things. That's the difference.

Like "I've a sensible reason to ignore even the thing given in the manga, you have not for ignoring a guidebook".

100%. There are reasonable issues that can be addressed where the author is flat out wrong and there are issues where it's going too far to change things. The Super Saiyan form being 50x while imperfect is nowhere near the level of issue that I'm raising.

This is all a wild misunderstanding of the events. I'm talking about factual errors the author has made. You are speaking about likes and dislikes, I'm talking about facts. At least for the BoZ numbers.

 

[ahill1]

You think yours is logical. That's the difference. You also don't use the 24k ~ 18k spacing for the Freeza arc because you feel the gaps should another way. But that's based off your feelings... Not portrayed in the story. I'm changing the number the way you are but in a more logical way, actually, because the 50x multiplier was stated and valid for Namek arc.... It wasn't stated to be a fixed one which will be the same for every other reason... Not even as a straight out multiplier the SSJ is treated in the story. Kaioken and Oozaru are the only transformations, in the story, clarified as having a multiplier attached to it. SSJ can vary or not be even one for all we know. I can't make it up to 50x no problem, sure, I just need to give a bigger edge for Trunks over Cell in SSJG3 and increase 50% MSSJ Goku a little or whatever other gap.... It's just not THAT needed.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How is ignoring logic realistic? I stick with the in universe logic over some thrown together numbers that had no plan.

That’s not logic, that’s head canon.

 

[Power Level Guy]

That’s not logic, that’s head canon.

It's head canon no doubt, but head canon can be logical. Head canon can also present superior options than the original author did. That's the point, to do better than the author. To "fix" his mistakes. That's the entire point.

 

[Power Level Guy]

You think yours is logical. That's the difference. You also don't use the 24k ~ 18k spacing for the Freeza arc because you feel the gaps should another way.

It is logical. If were are bound by the in universe laws of logic and consistency that is. We see what a 1.33x gap is portrayed as multiple times. Cui vs Vegeta is not consistently portrayed as a 1.33x gap. This is 100% portrayed in the story. Vegeta smashing Cui so easily has always been a point of contention, so much so, that we've come up with a reason why it happened. Yuuki loss. There's a reason that argument is needed to be made.

It wasn't stated to be a fixed one which will be the same for every other reason...

The in universe world treats transformations as fixed boosts. That's what 90% of the readers walk away with understanding.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Let me clarify my stance. We have straight up errors, like the BoZ numbers. And then we have less than perfect numbers. Like the Cui/Vegeta spacing.

Are you arguing that AT cannot make errors, is not human, and got all his number schema down perfectly in the Raditz Saga and had the foresight to make it all work together?

 

[Yoshi]

I used to try to make up my own numbers for Saiyan and Freeza. But then I realized it’s only good for experimentation.

I now think the best way to look at the numbers presented in those sagas are as a foundation for later Sagas. It’s not even good to make up numbers for Dragon Ball/Part I, IMO.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I now think the best way to look at the numbers presented in those sagas are as a foundation for later Sagas. It’s not even good to make up numbers for Dragon Ball/Part I, IMO.

So you think King Piccolo > Kami is ok going by the guidebook numbers?

 

[Yoshi]

So you think King Piccolo > Kami is ok going by the guidebook numbers?

No, I’m saying it’s not good to ignore the Farmer being 5 or Roshi being 139. Not saying those numbers are from Dragon Ball, but just that they’re around the level of power seen in Dragon Ball.

 

[Power Level Guy]

No, I’m saying it’s not good to ignore the Farmer being 5 or Roshi being 139. Not saying those numbers are from Dragon Ball, but just that they’re around the level of power seen in Dragon Ball.

Then you have to dismiss 90% of the character statements in Dragonball. Is King Piccolo using less than half power to fight Goku or not?

 

[ahill1]

Well, part 1 aside, then you'll be discussing the Freeza saga ignoring numbers from the very inventor who you are discussing about. AT can make mistakes, but a mistake for example is the "Vegeta is close to 20k" which was later corrected. This one shows that fights can go different routes with same gaps. I mean, Vegeta was the boss of the saga, for dramatic effect he wasn't killed and damaged as badly as Cui was. Once Vegeta wasn't the boss anymore, he didn't show that level of durability, vs Zarbon as an example. Goku could 3 shot the Ginyus, yet Goku survived a lot of attacks from 50% Freeza, whose gap over Goku was at least > 2x... The dominance and quickness someone is taken out is many times not consistent with the numbers... It's hard to precise exactly a level of dominance for the numbers precisely due to those inconsistencies in how the warrior is defeated, how quick etc, under those gaps. I think one can have an overall logic of "gap A > gap B due to this, effort, damage taken over same attack, tank feat"... But otherwise, there's a lot of room.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Well, part 1 aside, then you'll be discussing the Freeza saga ignoring numbers from the very inventor who you are discussing about.

The topic is Part 1. You are rattling on about a topic I am not bringing up. Stick to the topic please.

 

[ahill1]

I'm sticking to the topic. AT can make errors, like he did and was corrected on later issues like the Kanzenban edition. I agree the BoZ numbers weren't given proper thought. But is that the only one you think is off and ignore? Because you also say thinking of Vegeta's power up from Earth as 1.5x is better... But that would also fall in the realm of discrediting the very gap given in the story, so idk the problem with me having a 40x or a 10x multiplier. It's not like Toriyama was even thinking strictly about a multiplier for SSJ anymore. I mean, he really wasn't, so adhering to a 50x one for the sake of it being like that in the Freeza arc despite numbers in many stances legit flowing better with a 10x one or so doesn't make sense to me. If you also have SSJ Gotenks not that much above SSJ3 Goku pre RoSsT and the SSJ as 50x, there's no way you wouldn't have base Gotenks as piss weak before the RoSaT, which he doesn't seem to be.

 

[SIAD]

I like having the SSJ multiplier being 50x the Base, but I feel like there are some exceptions such as Arc Android, also fusions (with the exception of Vegetto in Arc Boo), also in DBGT, ToP and Post ToP.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I agree the BoZ numbers weren't given proper thought. But is that the only one you think is off and ignore?

At the end of the day, I think the BoZ numbers are below the acceptable standard, whereas everything else is acceptable, even though it's not perfect.

Because you also say thinking of Vegeta's power up from Earth as 1.5x is better

Just as you agreed that BoZ numbers were not given proper thought, I think Vegeta's 18k number is not given the PERFECT thought. It's acceptable enough and we should probably just deal with it, but Earth Vegeta being 1.5x is much better. Because we are forced to accept certain narrative elements that are false. Cui and Vegeta do not rival Dodoria, and Cui is tremendously weaker than Vegeta or should be regardless of his Yuuki situation.

But that would also fall in the realm of discrediting the very gap given in the story,

Because the numbers go against the author's own narrative, as I've expressed numerous times.

so idk the problem with me having a 40x or a 10x multiplier.

There's no real problem. There's good, better, best. I'm trying to convince you that the smaller multiplier isn't best. We aren't talking about the same levels of argumentation for the topics here.

I mean, he really wasn't, so adhering to a 50x one for the sake of it being like that in the Freeza arc despite numbers in many stances legit flowing better with a 10x

The author wrote it with 10x in mind. But there's certain in universe issues making it 10x I feel.

If you also have SSJ Gotenks not that much above SSJ3 Goku pre RoSsT and the SSJ as 50x, there's no way you wouldn't have base Gotenks as piss weak before the RoSaT, which he doesn't seem to be.

Having Base Gotenks about double the Cell Jrs certainly wouldn't be considered piss weak. So long as Base Gotenks is way above the Super Saiyan kids, it should be fine, he's all hype anyway.