Buu Saga

[FeatsofPower]

Honestly, this is probably the best I can do.

Goku 100
Vegeta 80
Gohan 60
Pui Pui 45
Expected Saiyans 35
Shin 30
Piccolo 21
Boys 16
Android 18 15

It does seem inevitable that the kids are drastically below the Adults but need to remain close to some degree given their interactions with Pre-Budokai Gohan and Vegeta. The main complication is that the kids are suggested to be close to the Cell Juniors in Super. It's certainly possible that they powered up significantly in the RoSaT to account for that though that would require the Base Kids to have surpassed Kaioshin.

Which means the boys should kept as close as possible to them. As close as possible seems to be something like 5-10x weaker than the adults. That’s what the combined strength implications suggest.

Fat Buu might be around 50x stronger than Vegeta. The numbers go wacky in the Buu Saga.

 

[Goku9001]

You know it's funny, because Gohan actually goes back to SSJ.

Isn't that exactly what the narrative has? Gohan loses the will to fight when Goku dies, and only regains it at the end of the beam struggle.



But Piccolo > Post Rosat Base Boys going by Super Boo's absorption. Boys ~ Cell Jrs is nice, but the boys surviving for a panel against folks trained not to kill normal poachers isn't that big of a feat.

But then he transforms into Super Saiyan 2 which requires him to harness his full power i.e be enraged. There's no middle ground between being enraged and calm and there never was. For him to enter Super Saiyan 2, he would need to be enraged. No half-measures here.

Piccolo could have easily appeared dominant due to his intellect whereas the Base Kids literally had nothing to offer. He only absorbed them for Gotenks' power which was now removed making the kids worthless.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But then he transforms into Super Saiyan 2 which requires him to harness his full power i.e be enraged. There's no middle ground between being enraged and calm and there never was. For him to enter Super Saiyan 2, he would need to be enraged. No half-measures here.

Piccolo could have easily appeared dominant due to his intellect whereas the Base Kids literally had nothing to offer. He only absorbed them for Gotenks' power which was now removed making the kids worthless.

But Goku said Gohan was holding back. There’s no getting around that. Gohan is stronger when he kills Cell than in the rest of the beam struggle. He didn’t even need anger against SPC.

Maybe. Logically Boo should have access to their SSJ powers, bit Piccolo’s influence was still the strongest… But on the other hand, Piccolo doesn’t notice any improvement from the kids when he enters the Rosat.

DBS also implies RoF Piccolo > SSJ Boys as I posted last page. What do you think of that?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This SSJ Goku > SSJ2 Gohan thing is really tricky if you think about it. This is what the SSJ/SSJ2 tier look like:

SSJ Gohan: 100
~ SSJ2: 200

SSJ Vegeta: 250
~ SSJ2: 500

SSJ Goku: 375
~ SSJ2: 750

SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games): 700

That would mean Dabra is a 200, and so is Perfect Cell. Perfect Cell is almost 4x weaker than SSJ2 Gohan? Is that right? Sure there's more room for Buff Cell, but that doesn't fit very well with the tank. So which one takes precedence? Tank or multiplier?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@FeatsofPower possibly Goku can’t be >>> Vegeta. check this out.

Goku didn't know Babidi can make people stronger and Vegeta had to tell him that. Vegeta turned SSJ before the potential unlock, meaning SSJ Majin Vegeta (Suppressed) = SSJ Vegeta (Pre Majin). Yet he thinks he needs SSJ2 to defeat Vegeta easily.



This might also explain Goku's surprise. He's not surprised Vegeta has SSJ2, he's surprised that Vegeta is his equal.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku didn't know Babidi can make people stronger and Vegeta had to tell him that. Vegeta turned SSJ before the potential unlock, meaning SSJ Majin Vegeta (Suppressed) = SSJ Vegeta (Pre Majin). Yet he thinks he needs SSJ2 to defeat Vegeta easily.

I don't think that works. Majin Vegeta's full power as a Super Saiyan is showing when Badibi pushes him past his limits. He's straining with everything he's got, there's no time for suppression.

Everyone's face looks on in horror as Vegeta's Majin power is brought out.

We know Vegeta isn't close at all because he swallowed his pride and sold his soul to close the gap. Vegeta was tremendously far away from Goku at the CG and says he couldn't close the gap despite his training.

Goku just is unaware that Vegeta equaling him is because of Badibi and not his own merit.

Vegeta at the CG should be the same distance as Vegeta at the Buu Saga. There's evidence to suggest he is and none to suggest he isn't.

No, Goku is suprised Vegeta has Super Saiyan 2 since Super Saiyan is not necesary to defeat Dabura.

 

[FeatsofPower]

This SSJ Goku > SSJ2 Gohan thing is really tricky if you think about it. This is what the SSJ/SSJ2 tier look like:

SSJ Gohan: 100
~ SSJ2: 200

SSJ Vegeta: 250
~ SSJ2: 500

SSJ Goku: 375
~ SSJ2: 750

SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games): 700

That would mean Dabra is a 200, and so is Perfect Cell. Perfect Cell is almost 4x weaker than SSJ2 Gohan? Is that right? Sure there's more room for Buff Cell, but that doesn't fit very well with the tank. So which one takes precedence? Tank or multiplier?

Man, that is messy indeed.

 

[SIAD]

This SSJ Goku > SSJ2 Gohan thing is really tricky if you think about it. This is what the SSJ/SSJ2 tier look like:

SSJ Gohan: 100
~ SSJ2: 200

SSJ Vegeta: 250
~ SSJ2: 500

SSJ Goku: 375
~ SSJ2: 750

SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games): 700

That would mean Dabra is a 200, and so is Perfect Cell. Perfect Cell is almost 4x weaker than SSJ2 Gohan? Is that right? Sure there's more room for Buff Cell, but that doesn't fit very well with the tank. So which one takes precedence? Tank or multiplier?

I find it interesting.

 

[Goku9001]

But Goku said Gohan was holding back. There’s no getting around that. Gohan is stronger when he kills Cell than in the rest of the beam struggle. He didn’t even need anger against SPC.

Maybe. Logically Boo should have access to their SSJ powers, bit Piccolo’s influence was still the strongest… But on the other hand, Piccolo doesn’t notice any improvement from the kids when he enters the Rosat.

DBS also implies RoF Piccolo > SSJ Boys as I posted last page. What do you think of that?

That would mean Gohan didn't need rage to enter Super Saiyan 2.

What I'm saying is that once the kids lost fusion, they served no purpose whereas Piccolo did through his intelligence. Piccolo still remained useful in his own way hence why he came out the strongest.

The statement you provided from DBS is interesting. It could be referring to combat prowess in general which encompasses skills and battle intellect rather than just power. Piccolo managed to go toe-to-toe with a weakened Frost because of that. We know for a fact that through sheer power alone, the Super Saiyan kids should be stronger than BS Piccolo. Piccolo was floored while sensing SSJ Goten and Trunks' power on the lookout whereas Goku seemed unimpressed.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Why wouldn’t Piccolo be stronger than the Base Boys? They were having trouble with 18 Pre Rosat.

 

[Goku9001]

Why wouldn’t Piccolo be stronger than the Base Boys? They were having trouble with 18 Pre Rosat.

Yes, Piccolo is stronger than the Base Boys (Pre). However, the kids ended up being as strong or slightly stronger than the Cell Jrs according to Super. Therefore, it's possible they powered up significantly so that they weren't multifolds below Gohan which would reconcile with that. Piccolo is multifolds below Base Gohan which would make Piccolo below Base Kids (Post).

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo is multifolds below Base Gohan which would make Piccolo below Base Kids (Post).

This conclusion is wild.

Piccolo > Base Boys Post > Base Boys Pre

The boys are struggling with 18, nothing suggests they gained a tremendous amount of power themselves.

 

[Goku9001]

This conclusion is wild.

Piccolo > Base Boys Post > Base Boys Pre

The boys are struggling with 18, nothing suggests they gained a tremendous amount of power themselves.

I think I already explained myself here. It's possible assuming the kids are on par with Cell Jrs. despite being many times below Teen Gohan prior.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think I already explained myself here. It's possible assuming the kids are on par with Cell Jrs. despite being many times below Teen Gohan prior.

Ok I see. And then couple that with Piccolo coming out strongest because of his intellect.

That’s a possible pathway and helps explain at least a little why Gotenks is so much stronger.

If that’s the case there’s no real reason to not give Piccolo a sizable power up as there’s no real restriction then huh?

 

[Pyro]

Piccolo wouldn't even need to be the strongest. Herms noted Goku was only describing what was happening, not why. We don't know for sure why Piccolo showed up instead of the boys.

Besides, we can say the boys lost power by the time they fought the Cell Juniors because they weren't taking their training seriously (like Gohan in times of peace). They lost the bug shortly after Boo's defeat. That's at least 3+ years of light or goofy ahh training.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The boys are shown being overwhelmed for a panel before the Jrs retreat. How is that on pair?

Piccolo doesn’t notice anything different with the boys in the Rosat before fusion.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo wouldn't even need to be the strongest. Herms noted Goku was only describing what was happening, not why. We don't know for sure why Piccolo showed up instead of the boys.

Besides, we can say the boys lost power by the time they fought the Cell Juniors because they weren't taking their training seriously (like Gohan in times of peace). They lost the bug shortly after Boo's defeat. That's at least 3+ years of light or goofy ahh training.

So are you suggesting the boys powered up massively in the Rosat?

 

[Classic Adamas]

What does "Expected Saiyans" mean in this context?

 

[Goku9001]

The boys are shown being overwhelmed for a panel before the Jrs retreat. How is that on pair?

Piccolo doesn’t notice anything different with the boys in the Rosat before fusion.

I'm being generous here but they were able to defend themselves against multiple of them.

I don't buy into the whole "they were holding back because they were laughing." That's their childish demeanor which is no different than how Kid Buu was against SSJ3 Goku. They were ordered to defend against the island and could not defeat them before they acknowledged them as rangers.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm being generous here but they were able to defend themselves against multiple of them.

I don't buy into the whole "they were holding back because they were laughing." That's their childish demeanor which is no different than how Kid Buu was against SSJ3 Goku. They were ordered to defend against the island and could not defeat them before they acknowledged them as rangers.

They were holding back because they were trained to fight regular humans. They wouldn’t instantly finish the boys.