Cell Games Piccolo

[ahill1]

How strong do you have big green after his RoSaT trip? Honestly, this is one of the topics with the most varying range of placements along the years... I have already seen people saying he is still #16's level as I have seen people believing he surpassed even 50% SSJ Goku.

So, where do you have him, and why? If possible, do include Vegeta and Trunks in the mix as well, for further understanding of his placement.

 

[Kyo]

Goku - 100
Vegeta - 68
Trunks - 66
Piccolo - 48

 

[Void]

Above whatever was displayed prior to the CG. Regardless of if he's shown for only two panels, he stands his ground against the Junior even after Cell told them to quit toying around. I have Vegeta/Trunks around 75% of Goku, so I'd put Piccolo at 50% Goku at the very least.

 

[Pyro]

Between Semi-Perfect Cell and 50% MSSj Goku, but probably somewhere in the middle. Irrelevant power-wise in the Cell Games, didn't do shit, no statements, a vague feat, and nothing to carry on into the next saga. Vegeta and Trunks, however, range between 60-75% of MSSj Goku.

 

[Six Trails]

Slightly above 50% Goku and about 80% of Vegeta.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Close enough to a Cell Jr. to defend against it without getting completely overwhelmed

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Chapter: 374 (DBZ 180), P14.2
Piccolo: ”Cell’s power is abnormal…Frankly, I don't think anyone can beat him.”

Weaker than Initial Semi Cell. Probably as strong as Imperfect Cell/#16 or something like that.

@Y'all saying Piccolo is close to a Cell Jr... How close is Base Vegeta to Pure Boo? Is he stronger than his SSJ2 self?

 

[Six Trails]

It's obvious that Pure Boo is toying against Base Vegeta since we see him beat up SS2 Vegeta. You can't infer the same with the Cell Junior against Piccolo because a.) the Cell kid never shows that it can beat Piccolo up and b.) we know what actually happens when a Cell kid has a significant advantage over its opponent (see: Cell Junior vs. Earthlings). Bad logic.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not really.

How you know the Cell Jr can't beat Piccolo? Did you actually read the fight? To make deductions of how close Piccolo is to his Mini Cell based on a single panel pure conjecture, specially when it's stated they were fooling around. More concrete evidence, such as Cell's statement, imply Piccolo was indeed no match for his Cell Jr.

 

[Six Trails]

I'm not given a reason to believe the Cell Junior can easily beat Piccolo when the fight shows otherwise. I don't subscribe to the logic of "Piccolo's Cell Junior was toying around but went easier on him than the Cell Juniors that toyed against the Earthlings and Goku". It seems pretty contrived and I'd argue that if Piccolo was meant to be perceived as weak he'd actually be portrayed as weak... rather than the opposite.

If you want to prove that a Cell Junior can knock Piccolo down to the ground easily like the others did to the Earthlings, then go ahead. But don't ask me to prove that Piccolo is strong enough to stand up to a Cell Junior when that's what's already shown in the manga.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention] That quote doesn't mean much honestly. It just means Piccolo underestimated how effective the RoSaT was.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P4.5-6
Gohan: “F-father can win…”
Piccolo: “We can’t know that…Their power far surpasses our understanding…”

It'd be like trying to use this quote to prove that Piccolo could never surpass Freeza or Namek Goku because their powers were beyond his comprehension. After just a few years of training though he was easily beyond their levels.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm not given a reason to believe the Cell Junior can easily beat Piccolo when the fight shows otherwise. I don't subscribe to the logic of "Piccolo's Cell Junior was toying around but went easier on him than the Cell Juniors that toyed against the Earthlings and Goku". It seems pretty contrived and I'd argue that if Piccolo was meant to be perceived as weak he'd actually be portrayed as weak... rather than the opposite.

The fight didn't show anything. Your coming to your own conclusions based solely on how Piccolo was looking. That's the same logic that made Trunks think Vegeta is on pair with #18.

Tenshinhan stood for longer than Kuririn against the Cell Jr. Unless you want to argue Tenshinhan > Kuririn, the idea of some Cell Jrs taking it easier than others isn't "contrieved" at all.

If you want to prove that a Cell Junior can knock Piccolo down to the ground easily like the others did to the Earthlings, then go ahead. But don't ask me to prove that Piccolo is strong enough to stand up to a Cell Junior when that's what's already shown in the manga.

Here it is, Piccolo can't hold his own with a Jr. Your turn, and remember: A single panel of him on his feet against a playful opponent isn't evidence.

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention] That quote doesn't mean much honestly. It just means Piccolo underestimated how effective the RoSaT was.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P4.5-6
Gohan: “F-father can win…”
Piccolo: “We can’t know that…Their power far surpasses our understanding…”

It'd be like trying to use this quote to prove that Piccolo could never surpass Freeza or Namek Goku because their powers were beyond his comprehension. After just a few years of training though he was easily beyond their levels.

Piccolo was later shown to have surpassed Freeza though, but the same cannot be said about Semi Cell. In fact, this idea gets supported later on:
Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P2.4
Context: after Piccolo talks about using the Room of Spirit and Time again
Vegeta: “…That’d just be a waste of time. Only Saiyans can step into the region ahead…”

Not exactly a comparison between Piccolo and Semi Cell, but according to Vegeta, Piccolo's power would still be pathetic after a Rosat trip.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

@GreatSaiyaman123 That quote doesn't mean much honestly. It just means Piccolo underestimated how effective the RoSaT was.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P4.5-6
Gohan: “F-father can win…”
Piccolo: “We can’t know that…Their power far surpasses our understanding…”

It'd be like trying to use this quote to prove that Piccolo could never surpass Freeza or Namek Goku because their powers were beyond his comprehension. After just a few years of training though he was easily beyond their levels.

Piccolo was later shown to have surpassed Freeza though, but the same cannot be said about Semi Cell. In fact, this idea gets supported later on:
Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P2.4
Context: after Piccolo talks about using the Room of Spirit and Time again
Vegeta: “…That’d just be a waste of time. Only Saiyans can step into the region ahead…”

Not exactly a comparison between Piccolo and Semi Cell, but according to Vegeta, Piccolo's power would still be pathetic after a Rosat trip.

It's moreso a comparison to Perfect Cell, who was hiding way more than what he showed against Vegeta and Trunks. That doesn't necessarily say that Piccolo never surpassed Semi Cell, especially not Vegeta who is dismissive to anyone who is not a Saiyan.

 

[ahill1]

Kuririn also stated that the Ginyus are ridiculously powerful and that he couldn't hope to match them even in a thousand years... what happened? He surpassed them minutes (or hours) later, due to the potential unlocked still thrusting his hidden power out of him. Piccolo also likely underestimated the RoSaT and its ability to provide a huge boost, as he was clearly surprised with Vegeta's improvement and even questioned whether the training in that room (at least anime-wise) can wield such huge gains. The fact that he also bothered to reserve a day for him to train in the RoSaT also likely implies he no longer believes in limitations like Semi Cell.

 

[Six Trails]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

18 was holding back against Vegeta which is why he was able to fight on par with her before his stamina started depleting. This seems to be a common trend with you. You insinuate that the Cell Junior was going easy on Piccolo without backing it up, and you always avoid the fact that Piccolo is not knocked down to the ground like the Earthlings. Repeatedly saying "they were toying" does not do your argument any justice. Your Tenshinhan to Krillin comparison is also very poor. They are both shown being knocked around and down on the ground. Even if Tenshinhan's Cell kid is going slightly easier since Tenshinhan was "standing longer" (he really wasn't) they're both getting the same fashioned beat down. There's a very stark difference between how Goku, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Krillin's Cell kid is treating them compared to Piccolo's Cell kid if it's actually holding back.

Nobody without an agenda would read the Cell kid fight and get the impression that Piccolo is trash compared to Trunks and Vegeta. He is very clearly shown standing alongside them (though in slightly worse shape). If he was intended to be as irrelevant as the Earthlings then he'd be on the ground along with them.

That scan doesn't prove anything. The original statement doesn't word it as "only" Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own but instead uses a non-exhaustive word for and that means the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list.*

* (source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488)

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Make whatever you want out of the evidence below...

1. Trunks was surprised when Goku said Piccolo stands no chance against Cell, even though he had heard Goku
saying he stands no chance himself and felt 50% MSSJ Goku.
Counter argument: Trunks was probably surprised by Goku's overall relaxed mood.

2. Gohan suggested they didn't go SSJ at 25th TB so that they gave a chance to the others.
Counter argument: Who are 'the others'? Gohan's context makes it clear that he is referring to those who
stand no chance anyway, aka the humans.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Cell Jrs > Shin > Piccolo

 

[Kyo]

It’s pretty clear small Boo toyed with even SSJ2 Vegata given his immediate performance against Mr Boo, against whom he needed to up his effort against. Likewise, I’d expect him to use only as much effort as he’d need against base Vegeta.

Anyway, the cell kids fight serves more to bolster Trunks’s reaction as meaning something, on their own they’re both somewhat weak evidence (though, the title page on its own is pretty easy to accept without the jank Boo arc implications). The title page seems to have a clear intent behind it I think.

 

[Pyro]

Yeah, the Super Saiyans are Tier 1, Piccolo is Tier 2, and the rest are Tier 3.

 

[Kyo]

I am Tier 0