Cell Games Piccolo

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's moreso a comparison to Perfect Cell, who was hiding way more than what he showed against Vegeta and Trunks. That doesn't necessarily say that Piccolo never surpassed Semi Cell, especially not Vegeta who is dismissive to anyone who is not a Saiyan.

Not actually a direct comparison to Semi Cell, but it doesn't do much to help improve Green Man's image.

Kuririn also stated that the Ginyus are ridiculously powerful and that he couldn't hope to match them even in a thousand years... what happened? He surpassed them minutes (or hours) later, due to the potential unlocked still thrusting his hidden power out of him. Piccolo also likely underestimated the RoSaT and its ability to provide a huge boost, as he was clearly surprised with Vegeta's improvement and even questioned whether the training in that room (at least anime-wise) can wield such huge gains. The fact that he also bothered to reserve a day for him to train in the RoSaT also likely implies he no longer believes in limitations like Semi Cell.

That would be a great argument if we had any solid evidence to contradict the statement. Conjectural evidence about how a fight we didn't even see against a toying opponent doesn't count, btw.

Though one could bring up Piccolo actually believing a Rosat trip is worth it. Piccolo actually bothering to give it a shot instead of being a pessimistic shit like Tenshinhan would definitely rise Piccolo on my book to something like FP Semi Cell or SSJG2 Vegeta level. Probably the former given how he's training alone and likely doesn't have as much potential as Vegeta.

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

18 was holding back against Vegeta which is why he was able to fight on par with her before his stamina started depleting. This seems to be a common trend with you. You insinuate that the Cell Junior was going easy on Piccolo without backing it up, and you always avoid the fact that Piccolo is not knocked down to the ground like the Earthlings. Repeatedly saying "they were toying" does not do your argument any justice. Your Tenshinhan to Krillin comparison is also very poor. They are both shown being knocked around and down on the ground. Even if Tenshinhan's Cell kid is going slightly easier since Tenshinhan was "standing longer" (he really wasn't) they're both getting the same fashioned beat down. There's a very stark difference between how Goku, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Krillin's Cell kid is treating them compared to Piccolo's Cell kid if it's actually holding back.

Nobody without an agenda would read the Cell kid fight and get the impression that Piccolo is trash compared to Trunks and Vegeta. He is very clearly shown standing alongside them (though in slightly worse shape). If he was intended to be as irrelevant as the Earthlings then he'd be on the ground along with them.

That scan doesn't prove anything. The original statement doesn't word it as "only" Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own but instead uses a non-exhaustive word for and that means the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list.*

* (source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488)

#18 said she would be going all out even before Trunks arrived, so that definitely was her at full power. Yet we can see a panel of Vegeta and #18 trading blows evenly...

I didn't back it up, but i'm backing it up now:

And before you say Piccolo was still standing after Cell told the Jrs to get serious, Gohan snapped two pages after that, giving little time for that to happen. Goku was even still conscious by that point, and the man was pretty much wasted.

I didn't avoid it at all. I literally made a comparison between Piccolo standing to Tenshinhan standing longer than Kuririn, to which you shrugged off saying he didn't. In this case, i recomend for you to read the fight again, because Kuririn got knocked down with the first blow. Here's a page where Kuririn is on the ground at the same time Tenshinhan isn't:

Spoiler

You say it like you know for sure Piccolo wasn't getting stomped. I'm not saying he was getting stomped as the burden of proof would fall as much on my lap as it falls on yours, though most evidence outside of the fight would imply Piccolo shouldn't be landing a finger on his Jr. I'm just not drawing conclusions based a the fight we never got to see.

1) I don't have any agenda here. Piccolo is my favorite character and i would be eager to place him as a powerhouse, but since we have more evidence against than for it...

2) Did i ever say the fight implies Piccolo is <<< Vegeta and Trunks? No, i didn't. If you reread my answers you can see i'm avoiding using the fight as evidence.

And if we are going to talk about shape here, then tell me what's the gap between those two based solely on their shapes:

Spoiler

Bruises all over the body, clothes tattered... Might as well say those two are pretty close based on their shapes.

I admit the scan doesn't prove much. Not because of the wording, as it only implies there could be someone else and there most likely isn't based on Cell ignoring Piccolo on another statement, but because saying Piccolo is getting shitstomped because he isn't fighting on pair is a scretch. But here's a more concrete evidence for Piccolo being far below Vegeta, Trunks and the Mini Cells:
Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

Piccolo thinks he's against Cell, but Vegeta believes he can beat Cell as shown by his confidence prior to Goku's fight against Cell. Vegeta is also stalemated with a Cell Jr.

Cell Jr ~ SSJ Vegeta >/>= Cell >>> Piccolo is the right chain here.

I am Tier 0

You're tier -1.

 

[Kyo]

das even betta :mikey

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

I put Piccolo a smidge over 50% MSSJin Goku.

 

[Pyro]

Such as 52%?

 

[Kyo]

Not that I have much of an issue with it, but why is >= 50% such a common viewpoint now instead of <=

 

[ahill1]

Not that I have much of an issue with it, but why is >= 50% such a common viewpoint now instead of <=

If he were <=, should Trunks be surprised at Piccolo being useless against Cell? He knows 50% can't defeat him.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not that I have much of an issue with it, but why is >= 50% such a common viewpoint now instead of <=

Because there would be nothing to be surprised if he's weaker than 50% Goku. Goku already said he can't defeat Cell.

Though i find doubtful Trunks' reaction is towards power. He was shown being surprised by Goku's laid back, sarcastic reaction, not by Piccolo's statement.

 

[Kyo]

Not that I have much of an issue with it, but why is >= 50% such a common viewpoint now instead of <=

If he were <=, should Trunks be surprised at Piccolo being useless against Cell? He knows 50% can't defeat him.

And yet he still considers Goku to be the prime candidate to take on Cell. Honestly, Piccolo's power should be a bigger deal if he had actually surpassed Goku's last showing.

Useful ≠ able to beat Cell, examine the line in question:

Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”

He was shown being surprised by Goku's laid back, sarcastic reaction, not by Piccolo's statement.

No, no, nope, nada, stop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbhtTlJYy3U

what part of the response is even sarcastic

Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

I’d just call Trunks stupid, it's a better argument.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No, no, nope, nada, stop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbhtTlJYy3U

what part of the response is even sarcastic

Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

I’d just call Trunks stupid, it's a better argument.

No, not the response, i'm talking about the smile on his face as he says it. He looks like he's laughing at Piccolo

On a sidenote, Viz does make Goku's response sarcastic by having him saying "Duh".

And how Goku's response to Vegeta ties in with this?

 

[Kyo]

To you he looks like he’s laughing. To me he looks the same as he has for the past two chapters.

That’s Viz’s interpretation. They put some more emphasis on him being frank in their translation is all, which is fine.

My point is that Goku was acting in that “laid back” and blunt manner the whole time, so I don’t see why that instance in particular is singled out for that fact.

 

[Pyro]

Because it makes Piccolo seem more powerful than he very well may be.

 

[Kyo]

I thought you were my comrade

 

[Void]

He's stuck in his old ways.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

He's irrelevant power wise.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Kyo[/mention] Even if it's not laughing, it's still a uncommon behavior for Goku. Although he's generally a happy person, he's never one to be so laid back in serious situations, see how dead serious he was before fighting Vegeta or Freeza. Trunks even questions his relaxed behavior latter on, wondering if he found a weakness on Cell.

I just brought up Viz as a matter of curiosity. I'm aware the original dialogue has Goku being way less rude.

 

[ahill1]

And yet he still considers Goku to be the prime candidate to take on Cell. Honestly, Piccolo's power should be a bigger deal if he had actually surpassed Goku's last showing.

Because Trunks probably knows Goku's 50% isn't his full power as per his dialog with Piccolo. He also seems to treat Goku as their best bet in the CGs, even though he is on par with Vegeta who should be already consistently above 50% Goku. So it's likely that Trunks had already a sort of understanding that 1/2 wasn't Goku's full. Piccolo probably knows as well, as for him to be sure his power can't compete with Cell's.

Useful ≠ able to beat Cell, examine the line in question

That's true, but I still think that Trunks' surprise would work even better were it in reference to someone slightly above 50% Goku. They know Goku probably stand no chance, so someone slightly stronger than Goku being of no help would require such reaction more, imo. Besides, his performance against the Cell Juniors implies he is considerably close to Vegeta and Trunks. He is shown standing, with light injuries and in a not so worse shape than Vegeta and Trunks (in fact, they look almost the same), so if Vegeta is strong enough to show confidence against an enemy whose power eclipses 50%, having Piccolo at somewhat above 50% would help in keeping him as close to Vegeta and Trunks as possible.

 

[Kyo]

If his suspicion that Goku's full > 50% was per Goku's dialogue with Piccolo then it wouldn't be a factor in his immediate reaction to said dialogue.

They know Goku probably stand no chance, so someone slightly stronger than Goku being of no help would require such reaction more, imo.

But it really wasn't that severe of a reaction. I'm saying that if Piccolo was >= 50% then it'd be a bigger deal...meaning, more of a reaction. It'd be more evident to the reader. If it wasn't for the Cell kid fight then I'm not sure I'd even consider Piccolo to be close to 50% Goku, let alone above it.

 

[Void]

The Cell Junior fight is all there is though.

Vegeta was definitely expecting more from Goku than what he had seen prior to the CG. Goku says he can't win, but he's still acting calm and collected. Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo all seem to have some slight grasp that Goku is hiding something.

Let's also not forget that Piccolo probably didn't just roll out of the RoSaT at full power. They could tell he had powered up significantly, but that's not an indication of his full strength. Even if Piccolo is marginally above 50% CG Goku it wouldn't change the fact that he is useless against Cell.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Kyo[/mention]You say that they still treated Goku as a bigger deal before Trunks' reaction? I don't think they had a dialog in which Goku was stilo seen as the top dog in the time separating Piccolo's exit and Trunks' reaction. Even if there was, it still wouldn't be very telling, as they are all curious at some thing Goku might pop up in the fight against Cell... Piccolo might be stronger than 50%, but since that's no guarantee he'd win against Cell, placing their hopes on some sort of strategy by Goku's end makes sense.

I don't think it needs to be more of a reaction if Piccolo is above 50%. Trunks could be as much surprised and it'd still make sense. Just that "oh shit, Cell's more powerful" face would make sense.

 

[Pyro]

Nah, I ain't stuck in anything. The evidence is dookie.