Cell Games Piccolo

[ahill1]

I think that what GSM is getting at is that Trunks' surprise reaction isn't directed towards Piccolo's uselessness and is then rather directed at Goku's blunt response.

 

[p123]

Why isn't Trunks confident heading into the Cell Games, while Vegeta is?

 

[ahill1]

That's a good point. I also feel that Trunks has gotten the info that the rabit hole runs deeper on Cell's power.

 

[Victorious]

I see fear and a surprise from Trunks. Why isnt Goku sweating? Why only Piccolo and Trunks? I'd like to see the next page as well.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They ask Goku why he's so calm because Goku has told them that he probably doesn't have a chance to win. That's why they ask him. Goku and Cell's relation have no changed from the conversation. What has changed in Goku and Cell's relation towards the Z Senshi.

Exactly. They go ask Goku why he's so calm. The idea that they knew Goku and Cell had more in the tank comes out of thin air.

When Goku says "well duhh" Trunks looks both surprised and afraid.

So Expected Cell (well duh) >>> expected Cell initial > 50% Goku.

Kamiccolo would have to be a beast in order for that panel to make any sense. If Kamiccolo was say Super Vegeta level how would that panel make any sense? "Holy shit Cell can fodderize Super Vegeta..uhh didn't I just see that happen a few days ago? In really nervous"

Yeah that makes sense.

Exactly. He gets surprised when Goku says "Duh", not when Piccolo says "Stop bullshitting Goku, i'm trash".

It doesn't make sense because you're trying to look at it on a way that fits your narrative, instead of in the way the scene is supposed to be interpreted.

Why isn't Trunks confident heading into the Cell Games, while Vegeta is?

It's not that he isn't confident, more like he was betting everything on Goku.

Trunks would hold Goku in a really high esteem based on how big Gohan and Bulma talked about him in the future, he will always see a solution in Goku no matter what. He also wanted to run away instead of facing the Androids without Goku even though Piccolo confirmed Vegeta > Goku a while ago.

 

[Victorious]

Exactly. He gets surprised when Goku says "Duh", not when Piccolo says "Stop bullshitting Goku, i'm trash".

How do you know? We can't see his face when Piccolo says that.

Probably surprised at both.

Your interpretation makes no sense, and I think you are being willfully ignorant. The author is clearly conveying fear in Kamiccolo, and both surprise and fear in Trunks.

 

[Victorious]

IMO THe point of the whole discussion there with Trunks, Kamiccolo, and Goku is that Cell is much stronger than the initial estimate being just > 50% Goku. If Kamiccolo was weak [say Super Vegeta level] this would just be casual information by now and they wouldnt be so afraid. The idea that Trunks is surprised at Goku "just being a blunt dick" and telling the weak Kamiccolo how lowly he is doesnt make much sense since Trunks is sweating so much. It's more like "whoah this Cell guy is one bad mofo". If Kamiccolo and Trunks didnt look afraid/nervous/fearful [whatever] then I think the whole 'Trunks was surprised at Goku's frankness' could make a lot more sense. In fact that was my excuse back in my base Saiyans > post RoSaT Kamicccolo days...but i didnt lookly deeply into the discussion.

Kamiccolo being this strong makes perfect sense, especially in light of that cover in their battle with the Cell Juniors where he is still standing. He was clearly >>> tired MSSJ Goku and not one hit fodder for a Cell Junior.

I go with

Cell vs Goku : 110
Goku FP : 100

new estimate of Cell [well duhh] : 80
initial estimate of Cell : 55
50% Goku : 50
weighted Kamiccolo : 45

 

[ahill1]

I like to have Piccolo right at 50%'s level as well. Some people argue he should be a bit below, whereas other ones think he should be slightly above. So right at 50% seems the fitting placement for Green Man. Vegeta would be at 60% or so.

 

[Victorious]

I have Kamiccolo unweighted 45 and weighted 55, compared to 50% Goku's 50.

IMO he must be weaker than 50% Goku in that conversation, as it wasnt said Goku was surpassed or equaled. But he is weighted there and Trunks doesnt know anything about Piccolo's weights. Unweighted though I put him marginally above 50% Goku.

Vegeta I have at 66% of Goku, and 60% of the Cell that fought Goku.


I think Cell Games 100% MSSJ Goku trashes Cell Games Vegeta, Trunks, and Kamiccolo in a 3 on 1 like he did the Ginyus.

 

[SSJ2]

It's blatantly stated that Kaioshin is above Piccolo.

Blatantly stated with absolutely no basis you mean?

 

[Victorious]

Doesnt he say something like "our world's are too different" or something?

Kaioshin >> Kamiccolo IMO.


Anyway, Kaioshin was a total disappointment...much like the Buu saga. He makes this really cool entrance, almost Future Trunks esque but turns out to be a pussy and joke. He should have been SSJ2 tier at least, and have a little more of a presence instead of some chicken shit. He's basically a useless character. But despite all this I still put him >> Kamiccolo. If he's even below that, then that's just pathetic.

 

[p123]

How strong does the Z Team believe Goku is GSM?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How do you know? We can't see his face when Piccolo says that.

Probably surprised at both.

Your interpretation makes no sense, and I think you are being willfully ignorant. The author is clearly conveying fear in Kamiccolo, and both surprise and fear in Trunks.

You just admited we didn't see Trunks' face when Piccolo made his statement… What means you know saying he was surprised is conjecture, right? And then you say i'm the one being willfully ignorant…

Blatantly stated with absolutely no basis you mean?

Might as well say Freeza > Kaioshin or Freeza > Trunks because their statement has "no basis" as well.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Dp = double penetration

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong does the Z Team believe Goku is GSM?

As strong as his 50% self,while Cell would be at 55, 60% at best. No reason to assume they expected more power out of him, specially when it's no stated anywhere.

 

[p123]

So Trunks surpasses Goku, yet still thinks he has no chance against Cell, even though he shows he is willing to team up? Do you really feel that is the narrative that is being shown?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He also thought they had no shot against the Androids without Goku even though Piccolo said Vegeta > Golu, as a said earlier.

Trunks strongly believes Goku is the be all end all, and even goes as far as believing things only went to shit on his timeline because Goku died. It's only natural he'd have faith on more than he has on anyone else. To reinforce this, just look how at how Bulma describes him to Trunks:

Spoiler

In Trunks' eyes if Goku can't, no one else can.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks was weaker than the androids in that occasion though, GSM. It wouldn't make sense for him to be still counting on Goku if he surpassed Goku's power. He knows Goku isn't some type of master who can get things down even when he hasn't the power for such, as explicited when Goku stated he can't beat Cell because Cell is just too powerful. He ought to be considering the possibilty of Goku having more power to show.

 

[p123]

Sure, Trunks may still lean on Goku because of the intangibles, but if he and his father have both surpassed Goku, wouldn't they be heading into the Cell Game with some sort of confidence? The entire lead up to the Cell Game is doom and gloom.

If Cell was only a little stronger than 50% Goku, Vegeta/Trunks/Goku/Piccolo should be able to wipe out Cell quite easily if they all fought at once. I don't see that as being suggested at all.

 

[Victorious]

You just admited we didn't see Trunks' face when Piccolo made his statement… What means you know saying he was surprised is conjecture, right? And then you say i'm the one being willfully ignorant…

No more conjecture than your appraisal. We only see Trunks' face after a sequence of events that included both Kamiccolo and Goku's statements. So saying Trunks' reaction applies only to Goku's statement and not the entire sequence is indeed conjecture.

But it doesn't really matter. This dispute (which can't be resolved either way) is just a massive distraction on your end. What me and P123 put emphasis on is the implied fear both are showing. If Trunks is just surprised at Goku's bluntness and Kamiccolo was really some Super Vegeta tier crap there's no reason for them to get so fearful about statements that would have just been common knowledge at this point.