Cell ( Real Speed ) should still be weaker than Gohan SSJ

[p123]

Yea it's common sense that when you power up your speed and power go up.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Yes, Cell went all out in speed. At his CURRENT LEVEL. Basically he was saying he has been holding back on Goku.

I mean, you could do the whole differing power/speed thing if you really want, I just don't see the point.

Cell is much slower than Gohan. It would make for a pretty decent sized imbalance that doesn't seem likely imo.

That's fine Kyo. Probably easier that way.

For your claim that he used his full speed at his current level, how do you interpret this line :

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least ?

This imbalance was already present in the manga : Tien was stated to hold back his speed while using his fp. Arguing that Cell can't do the opposite seems a bit arbitrary, don't you think ? Especially if speed has been showed several times to not necessarily correlate with power.

Cell doesn't need to power-up against SSJ Gohan.

 

[Kyo]

Cell's showing of his "real speed" is also pretty unimpressive if that's supposed to be his full power's full speed, imo. He's barely different from Gohan.

EDIT: Tenshinhan not using his full speed at full power is like someone holding their punches. It's not the same thing. On the flip-side, if someone is suppressing and going with all they have in that state, they absolutely have to power up if they want to hit harder. Same should go for speed.

 

[ahill1]

Tenshithands mentions that your speed decreases when you suppress your ki.

Yes has it that too. Do you think Cell increased his power when he increased his speed?

 

[Ryuzaki]

Tenshithands mentions that your speed decreases when you suppress your ki.

Contradicted by the fact that Ginyu's ki is bigger, yet is slower than Goku.

 

[Papasmurf]

Tenshithands mentions that your speed decreases when you suppress your ki.

Contradicted by the fact that Ginyu's ki is bigger, yet is slower than Goku.

But if Ginyu was fighting at half strength, he'd be even slower. All that proves is that some individuals increase speed faster than others.

 

[Kyo]

Tenshithands mentions that your speed decreases when you suppress your ki.

Contradicted by the fact that Ginyu's ki is bigger, yet is slower than Goku.

It's not. If Ginyu suppressed his chi, he'd be slower than if he didn't suppress his chi. That line has nothing to do with how one compares to others.

 

[ahill1]

Yea Good catch on Tenshinhan's speech Kenshi.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Tenshithands mentions that your speed decreases when you suppress your ki.

Contradicted by the fact that Ginyu's ki is bigger, yet is slower than Goku.

It's not. If Ginyu suppressed his chi, he'd be slower than if he didn't suppress his chi. That line has nothing to do with how one compares to others.

After Ginyu stole Goku's body, he stated that he was faster than before.

 

[Papasmurf]

None of that has anything to do with an individual in his original body losing speed when his ki is suppressed.

 

[Kyo]

Because he was in Goku's body. Goku happens to be faster than Ginyu. That's not related to what we were talking about. Just like before, if Ginyu could successfully suppress his chi in Goku's body, then he'd slow down. There's no contradiction.

edit: plz be slower

 

[p123]

Honestly I think the author and editors were uncomfortable with making Gohan > Goku by too much. It's clear that Gohan would destroy Goku but they are pussyfooting around the issue imo. So I kind of just go with it.

It becomes very tricky. So how would it work? Cell and Gohan are just faster tha Goku and marginally stronger?

Cell Real Speed 120
Gohan Speed 120
Cell Power 100
Gohan Power 100
Goku 90

Something like that?

 

[Ryuzaki]

None of that has anything to do with an individual in his original body losing speed when his ki is suppressed.

I have one question left before I change my mind : when did Tien said that ?

 

[Kyo]

Even if there was an imbalance in power between Cell and Goku or something (Cell's just a bit stronger but a lot faster), that still shouldn't be representative of Cell's speed when he powers up to full. We on the same page there, p?

None of that has anything to do with an individual in his original body losing speed when his ki is suppressed.

I have one question left before I change my mind : when did Tien said that ?

When he was looking for 1st form Cell with Piccolo. His issue was that if they suppress their chi to hide their presence from Cell, they wouldn't reach him quickly enough before he relocates himself.

 

[p123]

Yea. A power up or transformation signifies a whole new set of power / speed capabilities. A suppression cannot reach the full power or speed of the fully transformed or powered up imo.

 

[Ryuzaki]

So I guess that Cell didn't used his FP's full speed. But at least according to his quote, he merely stopped holding back his speed at the level he used against Goku. So he doesn't need to have powered-up as I thought, he just did the same as Tien earlier back in DB.

The only moment which could make me think that he might have powered up was when he grabbed Gohan and began to crush his bones, while earlier Gohan blocked his kick with apparent ease. But even then, it could be explained that Cell was slightly stronger, but his hit was too slow to damage Gohan. And then, thanks to the speed of his hits, he managed to damage Gohan more.

What do you think about it ?

 

[p123]

It just seems all around messy. Like I said, I think they are pussyfooting around Goku not being top dog here.

This issue causes massive problems with how the Buu Saga powers line up. It incorporates rage boost issues with 7 years of training issues and so on.

So many issues come about determining the proper gap between Goku and Gohan. The non rage boosted people tend to have a much wider gap than seems necessary while the rage boosted types seem to keep it real tight.

 

[Ryuzaki]

It just seems all around messy. Like I said, I think they are pussyfooting around Goku not being top dog here.

This issue causes massive problems with how the Buu Saga powers line up. It incorporates rage boost issues with 7 years of training issues and so on.

So many issues come about determining the proper gap between Goku and Gohan. The non rage boosted people tend to have a much wider gap than seems necessary while the rage boosted types seem to keep it real tight.

Of course, I've experienced this when I tried to make a gap without rage boost and with it. What is sure is that the rage boost existed. After all, Vegeta, the same guy who outright said that SSJ2 Teen Gohan was weak, can be unstoppable if he ever gets angry. Something that Goku seems to agree with, and even talk about it when he fought Cell.

 

[ahill1]

It just seems all around messy. Like I said, I think they are pussyfooting around Goku not being top dog here.

This issue causes massive problems with how the Buu Saga powers line up. It incorporates rage boost issues with 7 years of training issues and so on.

So many issues come about determining the proper gap between Goku and Gohan. The non rage boosted people tend to have a much wider gap than seems necessary while the rage boosted types seem to keep it real tight.

Yea, Boo Saga suggests a massive gap between Goku and Gohan; Where dou you'd have Dabra, p?

 

[p123]

And then if you get too out of hand with the rage boost you start making Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta stupidly powerful compared to the Super Saiyans during the CG.

It's an interesting issue. And then how the different statements effect things depending on which side of the fence you are on with the rage boost. Does that make Gohan a Ssj2 against Dabura then? A lot of headaches there.

How did Gohan retain Ssj2 form without training? No electricity vs Dabura and so on.

I try to go with the overall feel of the story, it's tough because you really can go either way for a lot of issues.