Did #18 use full power against the base boys?

[ahill1]

I think she was not too far off from her true power, like at 75% or so:

Mighty Mask : 275,000,000
base Goten : 330,000,000
base Trunks : 340,000,000
Android 18 (vs Mighty Mask) : 340,000,000
Android 18 (full power) : 450,000,000
Trunks' suppressed blast : 450,000,000

The highlighted part has no evidence whatsoever.

It has. I don't think #18 was too far from her full power considering Trunks wasn't entirely off in his calculation. We know the blast was around #18's level, since she was having a bit of trouble dodging it, and Trunks was a bit off since he was obviously going for a blast stronger than #18 (so it would hit and damage her), but not much stronger, since Trunks had no intention of killing her.

Using numbers, I'd say #18 was fighting at about 3/4 of her full strength. Trunks fired a blast 25% stronger than what he thought was her actual strength, and it ended up being ~18.

 

[Uchiha]

It was a blatant statement in three separate pieces of information.

What's the 2nd and 3rd? The only one I know of in BoG was referring to a blatant suppressed Goku.
The Manga, Db Super and Movie.

According to you, it's a false pretense, but it is never confirmed to be, so you're wrong

According to you it's a true pretense, but it's never confirmed to be, so you're wrong
Goku is never implied to be suppressed. Nothing implies he was and nobody retracts Beerus's statement.

Akira Toriyama wrote it himself.

Two other sources said the exact same thing.

You're wrong, that's as simple as it gets.

It doesn't work that way m8. When he states something in material that is intended to take place within the universe he constructed within the Manga, it's a fact. It does not work any other way and it never will.

You made up a rule and wanting it to be true very badly won't make it so. There's no source or basis for it. There's basis for him being a special authority, but in my book and most people his senility makes him lose that right.

You do not have the authority to say that Akira Toriyama cannot add things to his Manga. Nothing with Organic Freeza being stronger than Base Saiyans contradicts anything in the Manga. If you took this argument to Daizenshuu, you'd get rick-rolled.

But if you actually think you can say that he does not have any authority over the Manga, than don't bother responding to me, because it's a hopeless case at this point.

Of the "three sources of information" only one really counts and that's Super. The manga explicitly has Base Vegeta > everyone in the tournament and no real "blatant" information for Freeza > Base Saiyains. Tons of blatant statements otherwise.

BoG explicitly has Goku as being suppressed. KK told Goku to hide his Ki. On top of that KK was able to hurt Goku. Now the only way to make your absurd subjective viewpoint true is if base Goku has been nerfed down to pre Saiyan Saga levels (lol). Didn't contradict him is a terrible way to prove something, and would go full circle again when #18 didn't contradict Vegeta.

So your one source is Super, and that only works because the power scaling is so absurd. By your own leave Super doesn't count as canon as the guidebooks despite being endorsed by AT, leaving you with 0 "sources of information".

You do not have the authority to say that Akira Toriyama cannot add things to his Manga. Nothing with Organic Freeza being stronger than Base Saiyans contradicts anything in the Manga. If you took this argument to Daizenshuu, you'd get rick-rolled.

I don't remember saying he can't add things to his manga. I can just not take it seriously. He isn't God writing the Bible. That's the only case of absolute authority (if it were actually real). I don't give a shit about Daizenshuu.

But if you actually think you can say that he does not have any authority over the Manga, than don't bother responding to me, because it's a hopeless case at this point.

I explicitly said he has special authority. But I do think it's interesting that you think that someone else is a hopeless case. Maybe you've been told that too many times?

 

[Animelover5487]

Trunks's blast really doesn't have to be equal to 18 for her to dodge it. We know 18 was very concerned about her well being when Trunks fired it and wanted end the match on the spot with an attack that could kill anyone, of any power level that doesn't have regen. So I would say Trunks blast was stronger than her. At any rate whichever way you look at it the kids were just as, if not more restricted in the Mighty Mask costume as 18 was and they fought just fine against her so Base Kids, at the least rival 18.

 

[ahill1]

I think it was around her power based on Vegeta (18k) vs Kaioken Goku.

Goku at 16k almost wasn't able to dodge a blast from 18k Vegeta, slightly stronger than him. Vegeta even said he made it easy to dodge.

Spoiler

#18 was able to dodge it a little better, so #18 = blast IMO:

Spoiler

Goku immediately commented on the speed and power:

Spoiler

#18 does the same thing:

Spoiler

 

[kriss-]

I think it was around her power based on Vegeta (18k) vs Kaioken Goku.

Goku at 16k almost wasn't able to dodge a blast from 18k Vegeta, slightly stronger than him. Vegeta even said he made it easy to dodge.

Spoiler

#18 was able to dodge it a little better, so #18 = blast IMO:

Spoiler

Goku immediately commented on the speed and power:

Spoiler

#18 does the same thing:

Spoiler

Android 18 was heavily supressed during her bout' with the kids. She had to be, otherwise she would have killed them instantly. This obviously makes the most sense when we consider their suppressed Ki blasts as Super Saiyans. Because she was heavily suppressed and because the blast was suppressed, it's a foregone conclusion that she would have a difficult time evading it.
Trying to use her fight in comparison to other fights where the characters are proven to be close in power causes a contradiction, because it clashes with Akira Toriyama's statement of Organic Freeza being greater than Base Saiyans; therefore the most logical determination is that the two examples are mutually exclusive from one another because other factors have to be considered.

Of the "three sources of information" only one really counts and that's Super. The manga explicitly has Base Vegeta > everyone in the tournament and no real "blatant" information for Freeza > Base Saiyains. Tons of blatant statements otherwise.

Actually, it's stated in the Manga version of Super and in the Anime as well. Every single example that does not coincide with this statement can be explained fairly reasonably. Vegeta was only factoring the Saiyans into their bout at the tournament. The debates on Kanzenshuu easily discredit any attempt at discrediting this fairly straight forward comment.

BoG explicitly has Goku as being suppressed. KK told Goku to hide his Ki. On top of that KK was able to hurt Goku. Now the only way to make your absurd subjective viewpoint true is if base Goku has been nerfed down to pre Saiyan Saga levels (lol). Didn't contradict him is a terrible way to prove something, and would go full circle again when #18 didn't contradict Vegeta.

BOG does not imply, or state that Goku was suppressed. Goku does not contradict his statement so it's a true statement. You can't even argue that Beerus was considering an alternative form of Freeza because he watched Final Form Freeza fight Goku, this was the form he was referencing.

I don't remember saying he can't add things to his manga. I can just not take it seriously. He isn't God writing the Bible. That's the only case of absolute authority (if it were actually real). I don't give a shit about Daizenshuu.

Nothing about Organic Freeza being greater than Base Saiyans contradicts anything in the official source. So it's a true statement that causes no contradictions.

 

[Uchiha]

I can't respond to that without insulting

 

[Animelover5487]

I think it was around her power based on Vegeta (18k) vs Kaioken Goku.

Goku at 16k almost wasn't able to dodge a blast from 18k Vegeta, slightly stronger than him. Vegeta even said he made it easy to dodge.

Spoiler

#18 was able to dodge it a little better, so #18 = blast IMO:

Spoiler

Goku immediately commented on the speed and power:

Spoiler

#18 does the same thing:

Spoiler

Vegeta wasn't slightly stronger than Kaioken Goku. There is a 1.12x difference between 16k and 18k which we know from First Zenkai Vegeta vs Base Zarbon can be quite a bit when it comes to casually outclassing someone. Goku even said that Vegeta easily had the advantage against him and that he couldn't keep up with his speed nor power even with Kaioken so they definitely weren't rivals.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P13.5-6, P14.2
Goku: “Shit…!! His power and speed… [ ] I can’t keep up, even with the Kaio-Ken x2. [ ] I don’t care if my body breaks or I die! I’ve gotta up the Kaio-Ken to x3!!”


Raditz pretty much side-stepped Piccolo's SBC despite it being more powerful than him, sure it pierced his arm a bit but he definitely didn't have as much trouble dodging it as 18 or Goku did.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-0-13&fpp=10&fid=114

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-0-13&fpp=10&fid=115


So I think 18 could be 92 - 95% of the blast and dodge it the way she did.

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta wasn't slightly stronger than Kaioken Goku. There is a 1.12x difference between 16k and 18k which we know from First Zenkai Vegeta vs Base Zarbon can be quite a bit when it comes to casually outclassing someone. Goku even said that Vegeta easily had the advantage against him and that he couldn't keep up with his speed nor power even with Kaioken so they definitely weren't rivals.

Sure. I wanted to say the difference wasn't astonishing, but you're right.

Raditz pretty much side-stepped Piccolo's SBC despite it being more powerful than him, sure it pierced his arm a bit but he definitely didn't have as much trouble dodging it as 18 or Goku did.

Raditz was pretty close to Piccolo's SBC, as he should be at least slightly more powerful than 1,200. Besides this, like you said, Piccolo's attack pierced Raditz's armor and did hurt his shoulder. #18 dodged Trunks' blast easier than Raditz dodged Piccolo's imo.


But what do you think about #18 fighting Mighty Mask at 75% of her full power?

 

[ahill1]

Android 18 was heavily supressed during her bout' with the kids. She had to be, otherwise she would have killed them instantly. This obviously makes the most sense when we consider their suppressed Ki blasts as Super Saiyans. Because she was heavily suppressed and because the blast was suppressed, it's a foregone conclusion that she would have a difficult time evading it.
Trying to use her fight in comparison to other fights where the characters are proven to be close in power causes a contradiction, because it clashes with Akira Toriyama's statement of Organic Freeza being greater than Base Saiyans; therefore the most logical determination is that the two examples are mutually exclusive from one another because other factors have to be considered.

You basically ignored everything I wrote and basically repeat the same "BoG has Beerus stating Goku cannot beat Freeza and bla bla bal". There's no point.

No, the blast was around her power, wasn't way weaker than 18.

 

[Animelover5487]

Vegeta wasn't slightly stronger than Kaioken Goku. There is a 1.12x difference between 16k and 18k which we know from First Zenkai Vegeta vs Base Zarbon can be quite a bit when it comes to casually outclassing someone. Goku even said that Vegeta easily had the advantage against him and that he couldn't keep up with his speed nor power even with Kaioken so they definitely weren't rivals.

Sure. I wanted to say the difference wasn't astonishing, but you're right.

Raditz pretty much side-stepped Piccolo's SBC despite it being more powerful than him, sure it pierced his arm a bit but he definitely didn't have as much trouble dodging it as 18 or Goku did.

Raditz was pretty close to Piccolo's SBC, as he should be at least slightly more powerful than 1,200. Besides this, like you said, Piccolo's attack pierced Raditz's armor and did hurt his shoulder. #18 dodged Trunks' blast easier than Raditz dodged Piccolo's imo.


But what do you think about #18 fighting Mighty Mask at 75% of her full power?

I think she was using more than 75%. Vegeta was more or less 75% of 18 and 18 wasn't exerting as much noticeable effort as she was against the boys.

 

[ahill1]

I think she wasn't at full power because Trunks was going for a blast stronger than her (enough to at least damage her), but it ended up being around her powers (maybe a bit stronger, like you said).

 

[Animelover5487]

Yeah she likely wasn't but like I said earlier the boys had the greater disadvantage in the costume. The Daizenshuu says Base Trunks is on par with #18, nothing in the main manga contradicts it so I don't see a reason to make 18 much stronger than them. We don't know how much power Trunks puts in that blast but judging by 18's face it would at the least seriously injure her so I personally don't see anything wrong with having it more powerful than her.

 

[Zoom]

The entire fight in the manga was like 9 pages with mostly #18 dominating. Obviously Mighty Mask was at a disadvantage with the disguise, but unlike the anime series where Mighty Mask in base form was landing hits against #18, in the manga she pounded him pretty much all the way until they turned Ssj and from things changed.