Do you think Future Trunks vs Dabura (in both medias) just goes on to show that Dabura was really intended to be on Cell's level?
- Thread starter Natasha Romanoff
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Trunks got a good combo on Dabra but he still looks fresh and unbruised. Surely if Trunks had the fight under control Shin wouldn’t have wasted his last energies on holding Dabra and telling Trunks to “hurry” and finish them while he still can.
There has to be some difference, even if it’s just marginal. If we place Trunks on Goku’s level (a lowball since Goku struggled to hold the sword), that’s a SPC-level feat at least. Pre Majin Vegeta is SPC level at best since they’re both below Kid Gohan, and Dabra is probably between PC and SPC.
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I don't think Vegeta suddenly depowered just to knock out his kid and Goten when Buu could've come at any moment who was about to kill him moments prior:
The effect accompanying Vegeta's aura change here is the same one Gohan had when he first went SSJ2.
Well in fights of similar levels they're not going to damage themselves if they don't try that much unless they go at a great intensity, Base Goku vs Freeza on Namek during their warmup, SSJ Kid Gohan vs Perfect Cell and SSJ3 Goku vs Fat Buu are good examples of that.
Why Shin would not help Trunks against Dabura? Shin wanted to be useful as a Kaioshin in the Buu Saga which he stated, nothing implies that his personality greatly differs from his maintimeline self unlike the androids. Goku can't hold the Z Sword that good but he can still hold a metal that is strong enough to destroy it, but now that I think about it is possible that Post Z Sword Gohan, Goku and Trunks are on similar levels on equal forms. Base Gohan could manage better the Z Sword than how SSJ Gohan initially managed it. So, yes it's a possiblity of Future Dabura being stronger than his Present self.
I have Pre SSJ2 Majin Vegeta weaker than Super Perfect Cell.
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SSJg3 auras lost their electric qualities when the user was making quick movements as well. Plus, both cases had Vegeta have lightning on the very same page, without a visible power up like in the pages I linked to above. In my pages, his aura returned to the less pronounced firey aura of a regular SSJ before regaining the intensity and electric bolts of an SSJ2 aura once Vegeta regained his FP.
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Except that Grade 3 is not an option in all of this, as well as it looks buffed, without counting that everyone knows that is an transformation that doesn't work as sacrifices speed for power and has a great strain
Vegeta while knocking Trunks down and Goten doesn't have electricity. On top of that on one of them, Vegeta doesn't keep his electricy surrounding the aura and in the other one Gohan was plainly a SSJ.
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I am not saying SSJg3 is anything like SSJ2. But it has an aura that looks like a large sphere of electricity, and those qualities just disappear and look like a generic flight/quick motion aura effect when the user is flying.
There's lightning on the adjacent panel lol. Nobody says AT obsessively drew lightning on every single panel including close ups. However, just before taking the Senzu, the aura WAS unmistakably that of a regular Super Saiyan. And Gohan in every instance of transformation whether it be vs Dabura, Boo or when lifting the Z Sword, has a regular SSJ aura, consistently. Saying SSJ2 was intended there despite the complete lack of visible art indicator is like saying Vegeta and Trunks were Grade 2 against the Cell Jrs.
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In all of these panels, Vegeta doesn't have electricity, as well as the one you send me and I had already showed it:
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Gohan also lacks lightning in sone scattered panels in the CG. I never said lightning was present in all 100% of panels, but it is more or less consistently there. With post-Budokai Gohan, it is ALWAYS not there and the aura is unmistakably that of regular SSJ.
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In this panel, Vegeta had a less intense aura despite of being a SSJ2:
Of course, I am not saying that Gohan was a SSJ2. But the argument of art has always been inconsistent.
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But it has lightning. And there are panels where Gotenks has a less intense aura as well, or lacks lightning. But since Vegeta has lightning drawn on that page, and Gotenks had the long hair indicative of a SSJ3, AT probably thought "this should be a good enough indicator since I'm consistent with 90% of other panels".
Also, the Boo arc in general had less detailed art than the Freeza and Cell arcs. You see panels with Goku and Vegeta having oversized heads:
Yamcha having weird hair:
Shin and Kibito having regular earrings instead of Potaras
And so on. The aura not being drawn as intensely as in the CG is just one of the signs of AT trying less hard to be detailed with his art. He'd been trying to end the series since before the Saiyan saga.
Also, the Boo arc in general had less detailed art than the Freeza and Cell arcs. You see panels with Goku and Vegeta having oversized heads:
Yamcha having weird hair:
Shin and Kibito having regular earrings instead of Potaras
And so on. The aura not being drawn as intensely as in the CG is just one of the signs of AT trying less hard to be detailed with his art. He'd been trying to end the series since before the Saiyan saga.
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So, you are accepting that the argument of art doesn't make sense and is not indicative of Gohan being either a SSJ or SSJ2?
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I think AT still making a conscious effort to draw 95% of panels involving post-transformation Goku and Majin Vegeta with lightning, and making a conscious effort not to with post-Budokai SSJ Gohan on top of Gohan never having an aura more intense than Goku's in the CG (other than when he was charging a massive KHH) shows his intentions. He is putting less effort into drawing than in the previous arc, but still wants to be pretty consistent about only Vegeta and Goku having the visible indicators of SSJ2. And AT himself has drawn Gohan with those exact same traits at the Budokai when he was confirmed to have ascended past the Super Saiyan wall.
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He never made an effort on putting electricity on either SSJ2 Gohan or SPC during the Cell Games, like for 17 panels, Gohan doesn't have electricity. Also, what was he thinking when he wrote through Babidi that he didn't notice a change in between SSJ and SSJ2 Goku's transformations?
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So Gohan has no lightning in about a dozen to a dozen and a half panels, around 2 pages in total out of an entire volume. That's pretty consistent. Hell, most of those panels were when they massively enlarged theri auras in preparation for their final Kamehameha duel, so really it's not even a couple of pages.
Babidi literally didn't know what Goku's transformation was when he started glowing, and Dabura even said he was merely producing a glow and nothing changed. His opinion really doesn't mean shit. We see visible indicators of an SSJ2 transformation in Goku : spikier, more rigid hair that juts out in more directions, and bangs covering the forehead stick up and expose it on top of the aura differences. Super Boo even said "You changed a little" when Gotenks went SSJ3 even though that form has even more differences from the previous form, villains tend to talk shit about the heroes' transformations like that.
Babidi literally didn't know what Goku's transformation was when he started glowing, and Dabura even said he was merely producing a glow and nothing changed. His opinion really doesn't mean shit. We see visible indicators of an SSJ2 transformation in Goku : spikier, more rigid hair that juts out in more directions, and bangs covering the forehead stick up and expose it on top of the aura differences. Super Boo even said "You changed a little" when Gotenks went SSJ3 even though that form has even more differences from the previous form, villains tend to talk shit about the heroes' transformations like that.
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Exactly. Dabra was on a similar level to SSJ2 Trunks, but he wasn't on Goku or Vegeta's pre-Majin level at all.
Helping is one thing, needlessly sacrifing himself to win a battle that's already won is a different matter. Durability and weight are different things, so I wouldn't consider that a feat for Goku. I do agree these guys are all on similar levels though, since I don't think Future Dabra should (Or even could) be that much stronger than his Present self, let aone reaching Majin Boo's level.
Exactly. Vegeta is at best on pair with SPC, so there's a cap on how strong Dabra can be. Goku's statement would make a lot of sense if Dabra was stronger than SPC though.
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Lol, what?
In total, there are 20-21 panels in which Gohan had no lightning during the Cell Games, yet he is a SSJ2.
I am talking about Goku's confrontation with Fat Buu lol:
I also don't know why Toriyama was thinking when he add lighting to Vegetto if that'd be forbidden for a SSJ lol:
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Out of over a hundred pages of him being in SSJ2 form. It's consistent.
Babidi derided both the first two forms saying "No great change between them, is there?" in Japanese. It's AT poking fun at the fact that the only change is the hair getting spikier and/or changing color in those forms.
Vegetto is the most powerful character in the manga, so his transformation was given extra flare since he is above any SSJ3. And even that lightning only lasted for that one panel.
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I agree. Quantity > quality
And that an in-universe character doesn't notice that much of a change, therefore from a story viewpoint it's pretty much meaningless to judge.
So, just because he was given electricity is to represent him to being relevant? Toriyama could've just not give any lighting to SSJ2 Vegeta to represent him being powerless against Kid Buu.
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Except that Toriyama coupled panels of Goku going SSJ and SSJ2 respectively showing the physical differences as I detailed above: less bangs covering the forehead in SSJ2, sterner expression and the hair growing spikier and jutting out sideways slightly further on top of lightning and fiercer aura. We as the reader can tell the difference.
One panel exception out of hundreds upon hundreds of pages of SSJ2s and SSJ3s exclusively having lightning, consistently =/= establishing a rule that a powered down SSJ2 has no lightning. Vegeta even had lightning after Fat Boo's angry explosion almost killed him and broke his left arm. And Vegetto having lightning only lasted one panel.
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As well as that we've seen how Goku had sparkier hair without electricity in the manga, so it's not an absolute requirement to have those traits.
Even then, the only way in which your argument can remotely make any sense is if we assume that Goku = Gohan in terms of appearance.
This is where your argument falls, you have pretty much accepted in your argument that Toriyama is barely putting effort on detailed art, but also you are insinuating that he has to be strict when it comes to SSJ2. You have contradicted your entire argument and still keeps replying in an attempt to be right, thinking that your argument would somehow gain strength from doing that.
Even though, your premise has a lot of quantity when it comes to most of the panels it also lacks the quality needed to achieve to purpose of be truth.
