Do you think Future Trunks vs Dabura (in both medias) just goes on to show that Dabura was really intended to be on Cell's level?

[Papasmurf]

It was in my previous post. One reason would be that Gohan's stamina was lower and was making wasted movements. So while they were initially on par with each other, the gap widened when Gohan's stamina was falling faster than Dabura's.

Karin and Popo even openly said Goku gets tired out more easily in the places they trained him in because of his wasted movememnts. Yamcha was pointed out the same by Kami. This makes sense considering Gohan barely trained for the past 7 years

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It was in my previous post. One reason would be that Gohan's stamina was lower and was making wasted movements. So while they were initially on par with each other, the gap widened when Gohan's stamina was falling faster than Dabura's.

If Dabura thinks he can win the contest for stamina issues, it doesn't make sense for him to claim that Gohan wouldn't be hard to dispose, while previously he didn't show any superiority to him.

His words also holds some merit as during the fight itself we have seen how Dabura was soft in his movements with the first blast he landed which also made Gohan get angry. He wasn't actually trying that much on Gohan as he used his saliva as opposed to damage him, he also had the dare to look at other place during the fight.

 

[Goku9001]

If Dabura thinks he can win the contest for stamina issues, it doesn't make sense for him to claim that Gohan wouldn't be hard to dispose, while previously he didn't show any superiority to him.

His words also holds some merit as during the fight itself we have seen how Dabura was soft in his movements with the first blast he landed which also made Gohan get angry. He wasn't actually trying that much on Gohan as he used his saliva as opposed to damage him, he also had the dare to look at other place during the fight.

We don't know how long their fight lasted. All we know is that Gohan needed a sensu after their fight whereas Dabura was completely fresh. A counterexample would be Goku vs. Frieza where Goku had a very easy time against Frieza once his stamina depleted and the fight itself barely took a few minutes so that would hardly constitute a struggle.

I would say that resorting to his saliva is proof that Dabura couldn't get the job done quickly through sheer power under this context. It's once Dabura uses his magic that Goku remarks that Dabura is much better than he expected. That would dictate that Dabura's magic elevated him on a higher level than his power suggested so at the very least, Dabura (Full Power w/ Magic) > Dabura (vs. Gohan w/ Magic) > Dabura (Full Power w/o Magic). That is convoluted and I'm not sure why Toriyama would go this route frankly but that's the minimum here.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

We don't know how long their fight lasted. All we know is that Gohan needed a sensu after their fight whereas Dabura was completely fresh. A counterexample would be Goku vs. Frieza where Goku had a very easy time against Frieza once his stamina depleted and the fight itself barely took a few minutes so that would hardly constitute a struggle.

I would say that resorting to his saliva is proof that Dabura couldn't get the job done quickly through sheer power under this context. It's once Dabura uses his magic that Goku remarks that Dabura is much better than he expected. That would dictate that Dabura's magic elevated him on a higher level than his power suggested so at the very least, Dabura (Full Power w/ Magic) > Dabura (vs. Gohan w/ Magic) > Dabura (Full Power w/o Magic). That is convoluted and I'm not sure why Toriyama would go this route frankly but that's the minimum here.

The fight could have lasted a few time considering that we barely get to see some of their movements and then the fight ended, is like we never get to see the real deal but the one who looked better was Dabura. I think the fact that the fight ended like that just goes on to show that the one that had more in the tank was Dabura and who resorted of less effort. Also, the fact that Vegeta seemed nervous and angry of the fight implies that Gohan was giving his all and Goku thinking that Gohan had to resort to his anger if he wants to win goes on to show that he couldn’t have done any better at the level he was exerting of.

Considering that Dabura still had to fought Goku and Vegeta then I can think that he had to get rid rapidly of him, similar to how he did with Piccolo and Krillin, as he is the only man on Babidi’s side at that point in time. Dabura could’ve been at full power without actually using his full effort, that’s why he is now sure of fighting Gohan again having less opponents to contend and being more people on his and Babidi side.

 

[Dagon]

My bad, Dabura called Vegeta the perfect fighter:

Dabura is pretty arrogant and considered himself the strongest in the universe, heck, he even had no problem fighting all the three saiyans at once, do you think he is going to use all of his effort against the weakest of the three? If one was better was him, as Gohan needed to eat a senzu after their fight, while Dabura was fresh. Dabura not holding back against Gohan my ovaries:

Babidi says they'll take "their" energy as in both Goku and Vegeta, so that's why it's better to use Vegeta. They seemed to only be taking Gohan's energy earlier, maybe they can't use Dabura's energy.

Dabura's mission is to damage Gohan. It doesn't make sense to hold back as that would mean less damage therefore less energy.

 

[Goku9001]

The fight could have lasted a few time considering that we barely get to see some of their movements and then the fight ended, is like we never get to see the real deal but the one who looked better was Dabura. I think the fact that the fight ended like that just goes on to show that the one that had more in the tank was Dabura and who resorted of less effort. Also, the fact that Vegeta seemed nervous and angry of the fight implies that Gohan was giving his all and Goku thinking that Gohan had to resort to his anger if he wants to win goes on to show that he couldn’t have done any better at the level he was exerting of.

Considering that Dabura still had to fought Goku and Vegeta then I can think that he had to get rid rapidly of him, similar to how he did with Piccolo and Krillin, as he is the only man on Babidi’s side at that point in time. Dabura could’ve been at full power without actually using his full effort, that’s why he is now sure of fighting Gohan again having less opponents to contend and being more people on his and Babidi side.

My point was we don't know how long the fight lasted so they could have had a brief encounter where Gohan's stamina rapidly dropping within that timeframe was enough for Dabura to believe the fight was easy. Gohan was the one making wasted movements whereas Dabura benefited from using his magic overall. On top of that, Dabura's magic had Gohan on the backburner as we saw which would have tired him out even further.

Dabura would definitely win but I don't see anything that necessarily points towards Dabura holding back in power or effort.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Babidi says they'll take "their" energy as in both Goku and Vegeta, so that's why it's better to use Vegeta. They seemed to only be taking Gohan's energy earlier, maybe they can't use Dabura's energy.

Dabura's mission is to damage Gohan. It doesn't make sense to hold back as that would mean less damage therefore less energy.

Hard to know what would’ve happened if Vegeta wouldn’t have been impatient and/or if Dabura hadn’t realized Vegeta maliciousness at tha point, the fight wasn’t that prolongued and they were just beginning to attack themselves and not attacking at a great intensity to actually damage themselves. They can’t probably use Dabura’s energy and none of them were giving energy as they were not damaging each other.

Dabura wasn’t taking the making damage to Gohan task too seriously as how with his first blast was trying to piss him off, then he used his saliva before he could ever damage him and who knows what would’ve happened had his sword touched Gohan, then he discovered Vegeta’s attitude and that he hide some maliciousness so they will use him, at no point Dabura lose his confidence, but discovered a better method to get more rapid the wished results when it comes down to Buu resurrection.

@Goku9001

I think that the fact that Gohan wanted to finish Dabura since the beginning, but that Dabura wasn’t trying that much initially is also an indicator that Dabura take the fight slightly, he had to resort to magic but in response to try to take advantage of Gohan lacks of instinct of fighting as Shin has to give him indications of how the saliva can affect him and it was pretty much clear that Goku was trying to not think of that badly as to how Gohan had been performing against Dabura while Vegeta actually upset as to that. The fact that at the end of the fight, Dabura was ready to what Gohan can throw but Gohan still was unsure what to do tells me that Dabura was taking easy the situation.

 

[Goku9001]

@Goku9001

I think that the fact that Gohan wanted to finish Dabura since the beginning, but that Dabura wasn’t trying that much initially is also an indicator that Dabura take the fight slightly, he had to resort to magic but in response to try to take advantage of Gohan lacks of instinct of fighting as Shin has to give him indications of how the saliva can affect him and it was pretty much clear that Goku was trying to not think of that badly as to how Gohan had been performing against Dabura while Vegeta actually upset as to that. The fact that at the end of the fight, Dabura was ready to what Gohan can throw but Gohan still was unsure what to do tells me that Dabura was taking easy the situation.

Except we never saw how the fight had begun. We only witness Dabura overpower Gohan with his magic and then whip out a blade to attack Gohan. That's not really an indicator that he was toying with Gohan. Goku took Frieza lightly once Frieza's stamina had dropped but Goku still remained at full power.

 

[ahill1]

The Daizenshuu states what we initially saw was the beginning of the fight.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Except we never saw how the fight had begun. We only witness Dabura overpower Gohan with his magic and then whip out a blade to attack Gohan. That's not really an indicator that he was toying with Gohan. Goku took Frieza lightly once Frieza's stamina had dropped but Goku still remained at full power.

Okay, at a last thing, do you think that the fact that Dabura had more energies in reserve can mean something when it comes to effort? In the fight between Goku and Cell, Goku had less reserves of energies, while Cell had more. Also, in the fight, it was stated by Goku himself that he was giving his all, while Cell wasn't.

@ahill1

Can you post the scan?

 

[Dagon]

Hard to know what would’ve happened if Vegeta wouldn’t have been impatient and/or if Dabura hadn’t realized Vegeta maliciousness at tha point, the fight wasn’t that prolongued and they were just beginning to attack themselves and not attacking at a great intensity to actually damage themselves. They can’t probably use Dabura’s energy and none of them were giving energy as they were not damaging each other.

Dabura wasn’t taking the making damage to Gohan task too seriously as how with his first blast was trying to piss him off, then he used his saliva before he could ever damage him and who knows what would’ve happened had his sword touched Gohan, then he discovered Vegeta’s attitude and that he hide some maliciousness so they will use him, at no point Dabura lose his confidence, but discovered a better method to get more rapid the wished results when it comes down to Buu resurrection.

Vegeta deliberately spoke out to inspire Babidi to raise his power.

The fact that Dabura tried to kill Gohan with stone spit and the sword indicates that Dabura is not playing around. If Gohan were turned to stone, they'd get his energy. If Gohan got struck in the head with the sword, he'd die and they'd get his energy. You're just making excuses. Dabura was using full effort and full power. I'd rather not repeat this over and over again.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Vegeta deliberately spoke out to inspire Babidi to raise his power.

The fact that Dabura tried to kill Gohan with stone spit and the sword indicates that Dabura is not playing around. If Gohan were turned to stone, they'd get his energy. If Gohan got struck in the head with the sword, he'd die and they'd get his energy. You're just making excuses. Dabura was using full effort and full power. I'd rather not repeat this over and over again.

Not really, had he won due to the spit he could not have achieved any damage, therefore he wasn't trying that hard. At no point Dabura lost his self confidence neither we got to see him nervous, the opposite is what is shown to us.

Dabura could've killed Krillin in one punch yet he decided to use his saliva, Piccolo was garbage compared to him, yet he decided to use his saliva. Is that proof of anything?

 

[Dagon]

Not really, had he won due to the spit he could not have achieved any damage, therefore he wasn't trying that hard.

Stop making things up. At no point is this ever stated nor is it supported in extra material. I dare you to find a quote to support it. It won't happen. You can't do it. Stop lying.

At no point Dabura lost his self confidence neither we got to see him nervous, the opposite is what is shown to us.

What's the point of this? I never said that.

Dabura could've killed Krillin in one punch yet he decided to use his saliva, Piccolo was garbage compared to him, yet he decided to use his saliva. Is that proof of anything?

Dabura was luring them in to the ship to fight. The only way to save Krillin and Piccolo is to kill Dabura which means the Saiyans are encouraged to fight.

What were you trying to prove with this? Are you trying to say it means something for Gohan? If Gohan turned to stone he would have fallen and broken to pieces, or at least Dabura could finish Gohan himself.

Nothing is ever said about not getting energy from people turned to stone so stop making things up and start providing quotes. Stop with this nonsense, I'm tired of this.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

The fact that Babidi and Dabura accorded to get rid of the trash (Kibito, Krillin and Piccolo) and how he spitted Piccolo and Krillin, as well as they didn't got the energy from their stones that were there pretty much is an indicative.

Dabura would have lost his self confidence had he been trying his best.

Dabura trying to spit on Gohan and looking for another place just goes on to show how he watch him as trash and as well as he was thinking little to nothing about fighting him again.

At the end of the day, the fact that Dabura had more reserves on his energy, while Gohan had less is still on there. Similar to the Goku vs Cell fight and how Vegeta was breathing heavily after struggling with 1st form Freeza while Freeza was calm.

I'd rather not repeat this over and over again.

Stop lying.

Stop with this nonsense, I'm tired with this.

This let you as an ring to the finger . But don't worry yourself, you had entered a debate in which you know you can't win by honest obstacles. Happens with a lot of people that I debate too often.

 

[Dagon]

The fact that Babidi and Dabura accorded to get rid of the trash (Kibito, Krillin and Piccolo) and how he spitted Piccolo and Krillin, as well as they didn't got the energy from their stones that were there pretty much is an indicative.

Nope, they need to be in Babidi's ship or near the level portals to get the energy. Neither of those were the case for Piccolo and Krillin. They thought they were so weak it wouldn't be worth the trouble to get their energy, and decided to use them as bait to get the others to fight Dabura where their energy can be taken.

Dabura would have lost his self confidence had he been trying his best.

Again, making things up.

Dabura trying to spit on Gohan and looking for another place just goes on to show how he watch him as trash and as well as he was thinking little to nothing about fighting him again.

"He watch him as trash"? I guess English is not your first language?

You keep making things up again and again and again. Dabura's goal is to get Gohan's energy and the fact Dabura used spit means turning Gohan to stone doesn't deny Gohan's energy from being consumed. So stop making shit up.

At the end of the day, the fact that Dabura had more reserves on his energy, while Gohan had less is still on there. Similar to the Goku vs Cell fight and how Vegeta was breathing heavily after struggling with 1st form Freeza while Freeza was calm.

Gohan is rusty, it's established he's out of shape. That doesn't mean he's far below Dabura.

This let you as an ring to the finger . But don't worry yourself, you had entered a debate in which you know you can't win by honest obstacles. Happens with a lot of people that I debate too often.

You're the one that can't admit when you're wrong. You run out of direct evidence and make shit up to suit your bias.

Again, all of this shit you said about not getting energy from stone people and all the rest, cite sources. If you are unable to find a scan from the manga, a screenshot from the anime, a guidebook, anything, that corroborates these claims, then shut the f*ck up. Your next post will include direct citations of evidence, not your text, not your claims, but evidence, or you're done.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So what we saw was the very beginning of the fight. Makes sense for Dabra to still be testing the waters.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Well, I didn't expect this... People are at their weakest while ruled by their emotions, but also the fact that you beg for evidence is very telling...

Nope, they need to be in Babidi's ship or near the level portals to get the energy. Neither of those were the case for Piccolo and Krillin. They thought they were so weak it wouldn't be worth the trouble to get their energy, and decided to use them as bait to get the others to fight Dabura where their energy can be taken.

He still uses the spit on them while being trash doesn't seem as he only uses it when he is trying his best.

"He watch him as trash"? I guess English is not your first language?

You keep making things up again and again and again. Dabura's goal is to get Gohan's energy and the fact Dabura used spit means turning Gohan to stone doesn't deny Gohan's energy from being consumed. So stop making shit up.

No, I'm not a native English speaker, but for what is relevant for the argument, Babidi says that they have to be hurt:

Spoiler

And when it comes to Dabura considering Gohan trash:

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

Gohan is rusty, it's established he's out of shape. That doesn't mean he's far below Dabura.

Nobody is saying he is far below Dabura. Gohan is rusty after 7 years of not training, but he can still access to SSJ2.

You're the one that can't admit when you're wrong. You run out of direct evidence and make shit up to suit your bias.

Again, all of this shit you said about not getting energy from stone people and all the rest, cite sources. If you are unable to find a scan from the manga, a screenshot from the anime, a guidebook, anything, that corroborates these claims, then shut the f*ck up. Your next post will include direct citations of evidence, not your text, not your claims, but evidence, or you're done.

Well "you're done" is what you tell me a lot posts ago, but still isn't what you were willing to do, but to keep your pride and trying to stand a chance in what was supposed to be a honest debate, but you yourself ruined that due to being ruled by your emotions.

 

[Dagon]

No, I'm not a native English speaker, but for what is relevant for the argument, Babidi says that they have to be hurt:

Spoiler

View attachment 2006View attachment 2007View attachment 2008View attachment 2009

This is the only good point you've made this entire time. Good effort, finally.

However, it still doesn't deny getting energy from Gohan's stone state. In DBS we see that Old Kai dies when Dabura destroys the Z Sword that had been turned to stone. That should count as damage. So Dabura can attack Gohan while he's stone and presto.

Nothing else you have said is meaningful so this conversation is over.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Dagon
How is Old Kaioshin supposed to be able to defend himself if he's trapped on a sword? Gohan can defend himself and can react while Old Kaioshin can't. The situations are not even comparable.

Gohan could have been revived as it were Piccolo and Krillin had someone just killed Dabura.

I hope you to be a honest debater next time, otherwise it would just be denial and lack of evidence from your part presented once again because you know you can't defend yourself in actual debate. Hope you have learned that.