Dr. Gero (pre Absorptions) vs Goku SSJ (Namek)

[ahill1]

@Firestar - love you too.

 

[Papasmurf]

Expected Androids >>> Future Trunks (first appearance) > Mecha Freeza > 100% Freeza on Namek

There's a very long distance between anybody on Namek and the expected foes. #20 and #19 just have to be fairly below the ones on top here.

 

[Goku9001]

I have Gero becoming 1.2x stronger, so not "way stronger", but considerable so. But wait, if Gero becoming 1.2x stronger was already enough for Piccolo to doubt his own powers, it's really pretty unlikely he'd be weaker than Namek SSJ Goku. I also believe Gero would easily defeat SSJ Goku from Namek, but I'm interest in hearing your guys reasons and see if someone believes Gero would lose :wink:

Being 1.2x stronger than Android 20 Pre and and placing SSJ Goku on Namek as Android 20 Pre's equal would place Android 20 Post on par with Mecha Trunks at most which is strange because not only was his speed fairly impressive by Vegeta's standards, but that clearly wouldn't be enough for Piccolo to question whether or not 20 conformed to Trunk's rumors.


I mean, the rumors alone implied that the Androids were leagues above Mecha Trunks and Yardrat Goku. If Android 20 Post was arguably leagues beyond them, then him prior to his absorptions should still be above them as well if you believe that Android 20 Pre is >80% of Android 20 Post.

I really don't think Vegeta's face, drawned from that distance and barely visible could be used to indicate his surprise. But yeah, #20 (post absorptions) was most likely > #19 (post absorptions), considered the former powers were at least questioned by Piccolo.

He was shocked and there were exclamation marks signifying that. The fact that Vegeta was perfectly calm and not only planned for him to escape in advance, but willingly allowed him to escape implies that Vegeta didn't think anything of him at all. His reaction as 20 escaped was not calm. He was shocked and quickly urged Krillin to hand him the sensu bean and was pissed off that Krillin was clueless. His sense of urgency implied that he was just faster than he anticipated.

How do you think Vegeta knew he would've probably lost to #20? The latter dodging Piccolo's kick and firing that eye laser was enough for him to gauge his strength?

Piccolo stated that he knew it and Vegeta expected him to be on par with 19, who, while was nothing special, consumed enough energy to the point that he was severely weakened, especially after using his Big Bang Attack. Just by comparing him to 19 gave Vegeta enough of an indication that he couldn't beat him and Piccolo knew it as well.

 

[ahill1]

Being 1.2x stronger than Android 20 Pre and and placing SSJ Goku on Namek as Android 20 Pre's equal would place Android 20 Post on par with Mecha Trunks at most which is strange because not only was his speed fairly impressive by Vegeta's standards, but that clearly wouldn't be enough for Piccolo to question whether or not 20 conformed to Trunk's rumors.

Yeah, hence why I said it's pretty unlikely 20 pre is < SSJ Goku from Namek. There's also 20 not being too far off from Goku SSJ sick, but there are people who believe Sick Goku wasn't that strong.

He was shocked and there were exclamation marks signifying that. The fact that Vegeta was perfectly calm and not only planned for him to escape in advance, but willingly allowed him to escape implies that Vegeta didn't think anything of him at all.

Vegeta allowed him to escape because he would've probably lost to 20 in that situation, as stated by Piccolo. Vegeta resorted to using bluff. The exclamations were't drawned as belonging exact to Vegeta, so they could just signify the "whole situation" was a surprise, rather than indicating Veggie's surprise imo.

quickly urged Krillin to hand him the sensu bean and was pissed off that Krillin was clueless. His sense of urgency implied that he was just faster than he anticipated.

I don't see it as he just being faster than antecipated. He wouldn't just stand there even if he was below 19 post absorptions imo. Later on when he ate the Senzu he still had enough time to taunt Piccolo and the others.

 

[Goku9001]

Sorry for the late response, but ....

Yeah, hence why I said it's pretty unlikely 20 pre is < SSJ Goku from Namek. There's also 20 not being too far off from Goku SSJ sick, but there are people who believe Sick Goku wasn't that strong.

I'm agreeing with you that if you really did have Android 20 Pre being >80% of Android 20 Post, he'd still have to be significantly above Mecha Trunks. In my opinion, I tend to think Android 20 Pre could be above SSJ Sick Goku, but that's something I'm unsure of.

Vegeta allowed him to escape because he would've probably lost to 20 in that situation, as stated by Piccolo. Vegeta resorted to using bluff. The exclamations were't drawned as belonging exact to Vegeta, so they could just signify the "whole situation" was a surprise, rather than indicating Veggie's surprise imo.

Sure, but it's illogical for Vegeta to have weakened himself to the point of allowing him to escape if he couldn't catch up to him at all. As I said before, Vegeta had absolutely no qualms at all in allowing him to escape yet suddenly, he reacts with such urgency upon Android 20 escaping that makes it hard for me to believe that he intended on Android 20 being as fast as he was unless Vegeta was extremely stupid which isn't what's implied.

I also reread the scene and while the exclamation marks weren't exclusive to Vegeta, they still were exhibited by him and the fact that he knew Android 20 would escape and planned for it implies that the only reason he was shocked was because he was faster than he expected which is why he expresses concern about Android 20 managing to get away.

I don't see it as he just being faster than antecipated. He wouldn't just stand there even if he was below 19 post absorptions imo. Later on when he ate the Senzu he still had enough time to taunt Piccolo and the others.

How so? Then what caused his shift in attitude? The fact that Android 20 was literally doing exactly what Vegeta had planned for made Vegeta react with such urgency? If he carefully analyzed the situation and planned for it, then there's no need for Vegeta to lose his temper unless something went horribly wrong.

The last point is a good point, but character statements generally aren't indicative of time elapsing within manga in general.

 

[ahill1]

he'd still have to be significantly above Mecha Trunks.

Only above Namek Goku, no? Even after the absorptions, Piccolo isn't sure if 20 is a candidate to whoop Trunks' ass.

Sure, but it's illogical for Vegeta to have weakened himself to the point of allowing him to escape if he couldn't catch up to him at all.

He was still confident he could catch up to him though, hence why he demanded a Senzu bean. Frankly speaking, Vegeta weakening himself to a point he'd lose to 20 was already pretty dangerous.

As I said before, Vegeta had absolutely no qualms at all in allowing him to escape yet suddenly

Because he had to act that way (calm and confident) in order to hide his weakness from Gero, otherwise he'd have lost. He acting that way was only due to the circumstances.

he reacts with such urgency upon Android 20 escaping

Because at that moment 20 had already been deceived by his bluff, so he hadn't to act that way anymore. Therefore I don't see it as Vegeta thinking 20 is faster than he thought, since he had to act as he had something up his sleeve.

 

[Goku9001]

Only above Namek Goku, no? Even after the absorptions, Piccolo isn't sure if 20 is a candidate to whoop Trunks' ass.

No, Piccolo overheard Trunks and Vegeta's conversation which concluded that the Androids were leagues beyond Trunks to the point where Goku would have to engage in three years of vigorous training just to have a chance against them. Do you think a 1.2x gap represents the massive disparity Android 20 Post had between Mecha Trunks and Yardrat Goku for that matter?

He was still confident he could catch up to him though, hence why he demanded a Senzu bean. Frankly speaking, Vegeta weakening himself to a point he'd lose to 20 was already pretty dangerous.

Demanding the sensu bean was already something he originally intended and when he formulated his plan, he originally based his expectations on Android 20 solely around what he witnessed from Android 19 Post. Him weakening himself was rather dangerous, but that was simply a genius move as stated by Piccolo as he managed to gather further intel on the Android's absorption abilities and he properly gauged that even with the energy lost that he would've managed to free himself from the situation which was true. Furthermore, Vegeta himself knew Dr. Gero would be extremely cautious based on his own severe underestimations up until this point, so he used that against him to force Android 20 to escape. It was a rather dangerous plan admittedly, but it required Vegeta's deep analysis and ingenuity in the battlefield to pull it off.

For Vegeta to deliberately allow his opponent to escape and actually be surprised that Android 20 escaped despite having a deep analysis of the situation just seems illogical to me and there'd have to be a logical explanation as for why he managed to pressure Vegeta as well as he did. Given the fact that his speed was the only thing that was proven to allow him to stay out of Vegeta's pursuit seems to suggest that Android 20 could do what he did through his speed.

Because at that moment 20 had already been deceived by his bluff, so he hadn't to act that way anymore. Therefore I don't see it as Vegeta thinking 20 is faster than he thought, since he had to act as he had something up his sleeve.

If everything fell according to plan, then Vegeta wouldn't have had to react with urgency because he knew his opponent wouldn't be able to escape. The fact that Vegeta expressed concern to Krillin in regards to Android 20 escaping suggests that Android 20 was flat-out faster as later on in the manga, Android 20's speed is the only thing capable of allowing Android 20 to stay out of sight.

 

[ahill1]

No, Piccolo overheard Trunks and Vegeta's

Trunks and Goku, right?

the Androids were leagues beyond Trunks to the point where Goku would have to engage in three years of vigorous training just to have a chance against them. Do you think a 1.2x gap represents the massive disparity Android 20 Post had between Mecha Trunks and Yardrat Goku for that matter?

Well it depends on one interpretations of Trunks and the androids gap. No one knows how much the Z warriors expected the duo to be > Trunks, so I'd not say Gero (post) being put in doubt about being one of the real androids must mean he was above Mecha saga Trunks. I think Piccolo would open the possibility of him being one of the real ones if he were > Mecha saga Toranksu by a comfortable gap. I have Trunks at 87% of Gero (post absorptions), which I think it's enough for the latter defeat the former without too much problems.

Demanding the sensu bean was already something he originally intended and when he formulated his plan, he originally based his expectations on Android 20 solely around what he witnessed from Android 19 Post. Him weakening himself was rather dangerous, but that was simply a genius move as stated by Piccolo as he managed to gather further intel on the Android's absorption abilities and he properly gauged that even with the energy lost that he would've managed to free himself from the situation which was true. Furthermore, Vegeta himself knew Dr. Gero would be extremely cautious based on his own severe underestimations up until this point, so he used that against him to force Android 20 to escape. It was a rather dangerous plan admittedly, but it required Vegeta's deep analysis and ingenuity in the battlefield to pull it off.

I said basically the same thing...don't see the issue here. Don't really see how it helps you argument of 20 pre > 19 post.

as for why he managed to pressure Vegeta as well as he did.

How he pressed Vegeta? When Vegeta had to bluff his way out of it?

Given the fact that his speed was the only thing that was proven to allow him to stay out of Vegeta's pursuit seems to suggest that Android 20 could do what he did through his speed.

No, it wasn't the only thing. At the beginning of the fight Piccolo made note of how the place where they'd battle favors the androids due to being surrounded by rocky mountain:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c146/7.html
This as well as Vegeta and co. being too accustomed to follow the opponent through Chi sensing:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c151/12.html

If everything fell according to plan, then Vegeta wouldn't have had to react with urgency because he knew his opponent wouldn't be able to escape.

Except he would if Vegeta was just going to dick around and allow him to escape. Like I said, Vegeta acted calm and confident to hide his weakness from 20, but after the latter falling by his bluff he had to act with urgency in order to chase him and defeate him...no issue here. It doesn't really mean 20's speed was greater than he expected imo.

 

[Goku9001]

Well it depends on one interpretations of Trunks and the androids gap. No one knows how much the Z warriors expected the duo to be > Trunks, so I'd not say Gero (post) being put in doubt about being one of the real androids must mean he was above Mecha saga Trunks. I think Piccolo would open the possibility of him being one of the real ones if he were > Mecha saga Toranksu by a comfortable gap. I have Trunks at 87% of Gero (post absorptions), which I think it's enough for the latter defeat the former without too much problems.

That's a huge understatement then. If Mecha Trunks was really 87% of Android 20 (Post), then the stronger Yardrat Goku wouldn't have been terrified, but excited at the new challenge and wouldn't have even admitted that he'd have to train for 3 years intensively just to be a match for them. Implying that they weren't even that much above Mecha Trunks is indicative of Goku acknowledging that he would've made small gains over these 3 years which seems difficult to grasp, even taking in account that he hadn't even reached a plateau yet.

Aside from that, Trunks practically confirmed that he wasn't that much above Future Gohan who literally had the same shit-less expression as Piccolo did against Nappa (when he powered up) upon realizing the full extent of Android 17's power. Seemed like an immense gap honestly and if Android 20 arguably conformed to those expectations, then he realistically outstripped Mecha Trunks's power.

I said basically the same thing...don't see the issue here. Don't really see how it helps you argument of 20 pre > 19 post.

No you didn't. You stated that he simply asked for the sensu bean because he was confident in letting Android 20 escape while I mentioned that this was something he originally planned for and his confidence revolving around Android 20 escaping was based on his expectations of Android 19 which doesn't necessarily apply to Android 20.

How he pressed Vegeta? When Vegeta had to bluff his way out of it?

He pressured Vegeta as Vegeta expressed concern to Krillin upon Android 20 escaping and was even "pissed off" that Android 20 managed to escape into the rocky mountains. Keep in mind that while Android 20 did have the environmental advantage, the only thing that was shown to allow himself to exploit it in the first place was due to his speed.

No, it wasn't the only thing. At the beginning of the fight Piccolo made note of how the place where they'd battle favors the androids due to being surrounded by rocky mountain:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c146/7.html
This as well as Vegeta and co. being too accustomed to follow the opponent through Chi sensing:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c151/12.html

And Android 20 being able to escape into the rocky mountains was due to his speed as we see later when Vegeta fired the Ki blast.

Except he would if Vegeta was just going to dick around and allow him to escape. Like I said, Vegeta acted calm and confident to hide his weakness from 20, but after the latter falling by his bluff he had to act with urgency in order to chase him and defeate him...no issue here. It doesn't really mean 20's speed was greater than he expected imo.

I'll acknowledge this point, but it doesn't justify Vegeta expressing concern in regards to Android 20 escaping if he could simply catch up to him and the fact that he managed to hide in the rocky mountains which is something Vegeta didn't plan for implies that Android 20 was faster than he expected as that was the only factor that enabled him to exploit the environmental advantage he had in the first place.

Realistically speaking, do you see Android 19 managing to escape as well as Android 20 did?

 

[ahill1]

That's a huge understatement then. If Mecha Trunks was really 87% of Android 20 (Post), then the stronger Yardrat Goku wouldn't have been terrified, but excited at the new challenge and wouldn't have even admitted that he'd have to train for 3 years intensively just to be a match for them.

Hence why Piccolo questioned if the androids were or not the real ones. Maybe he expected the androids to be a tough challenge, but he ended up >> 20. If 20 post is above Trunks by a noticeable amount (the gap is bigger than Kkx2 Goku and 18k Vegeta, mind you), of course he'll open the possibility of them just growing too strong, since Trunks' word would not be flat out nonsense. There's really no problem here.

Aside from that, Trunks practically confirmed that he wasn't that much above Future Gohan who literally had the same shit-less expression as Piccolo did against Nappa (when he powered up) upon realizing the full extent of Android 17's power.

Problem is, he never specified his strength relation with Ultimate Gohan. Trunks never said something like "I'm probably half of the androids power" or anything. They could only expect them to be > Trunks (even fighting one on one I could barely manage to escape), but by how much is anyone guess. That's probably the reason Piccolo doesn't lack confidence, but still has a bad feeling or something like this.

You stated that he simply asked for the sensu bean because he was confident in letting Android 20 escape while I mentioned that this was something he originally planned for and his confidence revolving around Android 20 escaping was based on his expectations of Android 19 which doesn't necessarily apply to Android 20.

All he needs to have confidence is know his 100% > 20. Considering not even 20 post could oppose to Piccolo, his confidence is easily explainable.

He pressured Vegeta as Vegeta expressed concern to Krillin upon Android 20 escaping and was even "pissed off" that Android 20 managed to escape into the rocky mountains.

Are you trying to say he didn't expect 20 would be able to hide in to the rocky mountains? Because it's something he obviously expected, man.

And Android 20 being able to escape into the rocky mountains was due to his speed

No, it was not. It was due to Vegeta not being strong enough to beat him in that moment, thus allowing him to run away temporarily.

Realistically speaking, do you see Android 19 managing to escape as well as Android 20 did?

Of course I do. Do you think #19 wouldn't even be able to run away some freaking meters until the rocky mountains before Vegeta took a Senzu and still taunted the guys about their useless? How does that even make semse? You might be able to see this doesn't prove at all 20 pre > 19 post...

 

[Goku9001]

Hence why Piccolo questioned if the androids were or not the real ones. Maybe he expected the androids to be a tough challenge, but he ended up >> 20. If 20 post is above Trunks by a noticeable amount (the gap is bigger than Kkx2 Goku and 18k Vegeta, mind you), of course he'll open the possibility of them just growing too strong, since Trunks' word would not be flat out nonsense. There's really no problem here.

He hinted at the idea of them becoming "too strong" because it was arguable as to whether or not Dr. Gero conformed to Trunks's rumors. If Dr. Gero was "far off" from being leagues beyond Mecha Trunks and the stronger Yardrat Goku, it would've been easy to deduce that the Androids were weaker than what Trunks was letting on. The only issue is that the Androids were arguably as strong as Trunks stated despite not being a challenge, but that wouldn't refute that there was a distinct possibility that they did conform to Trunks's rumors.

Problem is, he never specified his strength relation with Ultimate Gohan. Trunks never said something like "I'm probably half of the androids power" or anything. They could only expect them to be > Trunks (even fighting one on one I could barely manage to escape), but by how much is anyone guess. That's probably the reason Piccolo doesn't lack confidence, but still has a bad feeling or something like this.

I'll give up on this point because I now realize that was sort of irrelevant and would have to imply that Android 20 was close to the Future Androids.

All he needs to have confidence is know his 100% > 20. Considering not even 20 post could oppose to Piccolo, his confidence is easily explainable.

His confidence is unjustified then if he really intended on struggling to prevent Android 20 from escaping. His power is meaningless if he couldn't even prevent him from escaping.

Are you trying to say he didn't expect 20 would be able to hide in to the rocky mountains? Because it's something he obviously expected, man.

No it wasn't because he was pissed off that he actually managed to use the location to his advantage. If you're assuming that he did, then that would mean that Vegeta pissed himself off on purpose which is difficult to believe.

No, it was not. It was due to Vegeta not being strong enough to beat him in that moment, thus allowing him to run away temporarily.

Allowing Android 20 to escape had nothing to do with why Vegeta struggled when Vegeta based his expectations of #20 on #19 and expected that he'd be able to prevent him from escaping in the first place. It was explicitly shown that Android 20 was only capable utilizing the environment to his advantage only due to his speed which Vegeta remarked. If Android 20 managed to do so even before absorbing any energy, then he simply was faster than Android 19 to begin with.

Of course I do. Do you think #19 wouldn't even be able to run away some freaking meters until the rocky mountains before Vegeta took a Senzu and still taunted the guys about their useless? How does that even make semse? You might be able to see this doesn't prove at all 20 pre > 19 post...

So you believe that Android 19 would realistically be capable of using the environment to his advantage even though Vegeta stated that the only reason #20 could so in the first place was because he was faster than he expected, his initial expectations being that #20 was on par with #19?

As I stated before, Vegeta taunting them isn't indicative of any amount of time elapsing considering character statements are constantly made in manga in general even in the midst of events that occur ridiculously fast.

 

[ahill1]

If Dr. Gero was "far off" from being leagues beyond Mecha Trunks and the stronger Yardrat Goku, it would've been easy to deduce that the Androids were weaker than what Trunks was letting on.

All Piccolo knew for sure was expected androids were > Yardrat Goku and Trunks. If 20 post is above the duo, even if by a "small" margin, I don't see the problem with him bringing the possibility of them just growing too strong. Trunks' word would not be complete bs.

The only issue is that the Androids were arguably as strong as Trunks stated despite not being a challenge, but that wouldn't refute that there was a distinct possibility that they did conform to Trunks's rumors.

Let's see:

Future Gohan 1 arm was considerable above less than half future #17, so much so he displayed a bit of confidence in beating the two of them at the same time. Even so, he wasn't tatally confident (he even saw the need in knocking down Trunks), therefore he shouldn't be leagues above less than half 17. Putting him at 50% seems fine.

Future Trunks [Mecha saga] surpassed Gohan, but not by a significant amount, as confirmed by future Bulma. So let's say he was at 55% of future 17.

Androids saga Piccolo surpassed Mecha saga Trunks, sure, but he's still considerable weaker than future 17 (100), since even a considerable stronger Trunks from Androids saga was no match for him. So, to sum it up, we have:

Future #17 (100) >> Androids saga future Trunks (85~88?) >> Androids saga Piccolo (~75) >> Mecha saga future Trunks (~55) > one armed future Gohan (~50)

Yet Piccolo displayed confidence on his own powers against the androids and even brought up the possibility of 20 post (considerable weaker than Piccolo) being one of the real androids. By scalling it's pretty hard to have androids saga Piccolo leagues above Mecha saga Trunks, let alone 20 post.

His confidence is unjustified then if he really intended on struggling to prevent Android 20 from escaping. His power is meaningless if he couldn't even prevent him from escaping.

Again, he had to display confidence in order to not be defeated by 20. Vegeta even stated the main factor was 20 hiding in the rocks, rather than his speed (see, this was before 20 absorbing the blast).
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c151/8.html

Vegeta: The worm used the landscape...just as I expected...

No it wasn't because he was pissed off that he actually managed to use the location to his advantage. If you're assuming that he did, then that would mean that Vegeta pissed himself off on purpose which is difficult to believe.

He was pissed off because Kuririn was hesitant on giving him the Senzu, and that would allow 20 to escape. He only had to act with urgency, because 20 was just fooled by his bluff...it has nothing to do with 20 being faster than expected, really.

It was explicitly shown that Android 20 was only capable utilizing the environment to his advantage only due to his speed which Vegeta remarked.

Vegeta only remarked 20's speed after he absorbed his blast, to which he was arguably faster than before.

So you believe that Android 19 would realistically be capable of using the environment to his advantage even though Vegeta stated that the only reason #20 could so in the first place was because he was faster than he expected, his initial expectations being that #20 was on par with #19?

Again, that was said after 20 absorbed the blast. Besides, 20 only showed up because Vegeta fired that blast.

 

[Goku9001]

All Piccolo knew for sure was expected androids were > Yardrat Goku and Trunks. If 20 post is above the duo, even if by a "small" margin, I don't see the problem with him bringing the possibility of them just growing too strong. Trunks' word would not be complete bs.

Then it wouldn't be debatable because Dr. Gero would be noticeably below what was expected of the Androids. The only thing that's really preventing Piccolo from being certain was the fact that the Androids were supposed to annihilate them, but that's the only implication we received from Piccolo. Other than that, Dr. Gero should be noticeably stronger than Mecha Trunks and that's easily justified by the fact that Android 20's speed was capable of challenging even Vegeta.

Future Gohan 1 arm was considerable above less than half future #17, so much so he displayed a bit of confidence in beating the two of them at the same time. Even so, he wasn't tatally confident (he even saw the need in knocking down Trunks), therefore he shouldn't be leagues above less than half 17. Putting him at 50% seems fine.

Future Trunks [Mecha saga] surpassed Gohan, but not by a significant amount, as confirmed by future Bulma. So let's say he was at 55% of future 17.

Androids saga Piccolo surpassed Mecha saga Trunks, sure, but he's still considerable weaker than future 17 (100), since even a considerable stronger Trunks from Androids saga was no match for him. So, to sum it up, we have:

Future #17 (100) >> Androids saga future Trunks (85~88?) >> Androids saga Piccolo (~75) >> Mecha saga future Trunks (~55) > one armed future Gohan (~50)

Let's see:

Android 17 (Suppression) - 35
Future Gohan - 38
Mecha Trunks - 40
Yardrat Goku - 45
Android 20 - 65
Android Saga Piccolo - 80
Future Android 17 - 100

It's still quite easy to place Android 20 being significantly above Yardrat Goku and Mecha Trunks while still placing him far below Android Saga Piccolo and it certainly helps that Android Saga Trunks was capable of handling himself fairly well against the Future Duo, so Trunk's placement isn't necessarily a problem and he still retains his superiority over Piccolo despite conforming to these figures. This isn't necessarily set in-stone, but it's just an approximate representation of how this can all work.

Again, he had to display confidence in order to not be defeated by 20. Vegeta even stated the main factor was 20 hiding in the rocks, rather than his speed (see, this was before 20 absorbing the blast).
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c151/8.html [/qutoe]

Vegeta: The worm used the landscape...just as I expected...

If he knew Android 20 would've been able to escape, he wouldn't have bluffed his way out of the situation because being forced to allow Android 20 to escape to gather further intel required Vegeta's confidence in making sure he doesn't escape in the first place.

If that wasn't the case, then what's the point of even showing up if you're not confident that you can get the job done?

Furthermore, while Vegeta did state this, that doesn't automatically lead to the implication that Android 20 wasn't fast enough to do so. If Vegeta was confident that Android 20 couldn't escape and expresses surprise upon him utilizing the environment to his advantage even though that was a given , then there had to be another external factor that caught Vegeta by surprise and the only thing we're given is that Android 20 was faster than he expected.

He was pissed off because Kuririn was hesitant on giving him the Senzu, and that would allow 20 to escape. He only had to act with urgency, because 20 was just fooled by his bluff...it has nothing to do with 20 being faster than expected, really.

That wasn't what I was referring to, I was referring to when Vegeta actually pursued Android 20 and was caught off-guard by Android 20 utilizing the environment to his advantage.

If Vegeta planned for Android 20's escape and also planned for the possibility of Android 20 using the environment to his advantage yet still expresses frustration and shock upon him hiding within the rocky mountains, then that would imply that Vegeta either pissed himself off on purpose or was a complete buffoon. Because that jeopardizes the integrity of Vegeta's character, it's more logical to believe there was another external factor that Vegeta didn't account for, and the only justification we have for that is the fact that Vegeta underestimated his speed.

Well, unless Vegeta has been an idiot this entire time, but he was already established to be a battle genius, so let's not go there.

Vegeta only remarked 20's speed after he absorbed his blast, to which he was arguably faster than before.

Android 20 Pre manages to escape into the rocky mountains.
Android 20 Post manages to escape into the rocky mountains.
Vegeta states that Android 20 Post managed to do so because he was faster than he anticipated.

There's one thing in common and there's only one explicit reason for why that was the case, therefore, it's reasonable to deduce that Android 20 Pre was faster than he anticipated as well.

Again, that was said after 20 absorbed the blast. Besides, 20 only showed up because Vegeta fired that blast.

But ... But Android 20 Pre did escape into the rocky mountains and the only reason we're given for why Android 20 Post had done so was because he was faster than Vegeta expected. If Android 20 Pre did the exact same thing, wouldn't that mean he was faster than expected as well?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Great debate guys.