Dragon Ball Re-Watch
- Thread starter Captain Cadaver
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Zeta's Universe 7 ToP team:Super Saiyan said:
Lord :bitch
Manly GAINZ Roshi
Lord Appule
Wild West Giran
CHADitz
Maximum Broly: Bane of Pakl
Son "Galu" Kakarot
Bottom Bitch Yamu
Orlen
Super #17 (powered by Povit-Gid's infinite fapping energy)
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Super Saiyan said:Everything is accurate aside from :bitch . Replace that clown with Yamucha of the Desert
Episode 107 - You know a scene's filler when Chaozu actually manages to do something of worth
2 Got to give credit to Toei for making him more than a glorified background character. Not just that, but filler created what may very well have been Tenshinhan's best character moment in him showing the regrets of his past self and swallowing his pride to someone he injured in order to get the Dragon Ball. It does a good job at showing the truth that even if you change, not everyone will forgive you, something that the DB manga wouldn't cover extensively for villains turned allies until Cell Arc Vegeta.Episode 108 - It is good to see how merciless Goku gets when confronted with Tambourine. It's probably the most rage-fuelled he is shown to be in the franchise other than when fighting Freeza as a SSJ. Pretty coincidental that both cases were against a character that killed Kuririn and were voiced by Ryusei Nakao. I doubt it was intentional though with Toriyama's lack of planning and him barely being at the second act of the arc when Freeza was introduced in the anime.
Even for how early into the series this was in retrospect, Ten and Roshi not being able to easily fend off a pack of crows from all angles seems like a nerf with some of the speed feats shown prior. Still, at least Toei added the positive with this filler of Chaozu yet again actually doing something, so it's okay. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
Episode 109 - With Goku VS Piccolo Daimao, it's a bit coincidental that Goku would insult Daimao by calling him slug shit (namekuji unko) when considering Daimao indeed might as well be shit as far as Namekians go when even a random farmer on Namek is far more powerful than he ever was. Piccolo's "less than half" statement can be considered the start of one of the franchise's laziest tropes; characters holding back when there's no real reason beyond increasing the scale.
The fight in itself can be considered the more impressive round 1 redux of Goku VS Taopaipai, with Piccolo Daimao dominating Goku to a far greater degree. It's a bit disappointing that the fights are so similar in both their execution and the aftermath that the comparison is too easy to make, but it at least did enough different in the choreography and scale to not be a lazy rehash.
Episode 110 - Goku's heart conveniently restarting after Daimao leaves is a pretty big asspull. I wouldn't say it's too bad when we're later revealed Goku's Saiyan heritage and it was already made apparent that Galu's biology was far different from regular humans, though him being able to just do this is where this fight fails compared to Goku's first match with Tao Pai Pai where it's apparent he wouldn't have survived if not for luck. Then again, maybe that was the point Toriyama was making in showing the progress of Goku's strength. It is pretty impressive Goku is able to give Yajirobe directions to Karin-to from memory despite his fatigue. It does a good job in showing how knowledgeable he'd become of worldwide geography after his 3 years of travelling around the world.
Piccolo eating the DBs is a good Catch 22 situation. Even if Roshi had won with the Mafuba, the Dragon Balls would be sealed away and unable to be used. If the Dragon Balls are to be used by anyone, Roshi has to die. It's a good way of making a lose-lose situation for the heroes.
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Episode 111 - Roshi's words to Daimao and his death make for a good conclusion to his character arc. Things like this may have made it a fine opportunity to have the Piccolo Daimao Arc be the finale of the series with the many permanent repercussions it had, though I do think Toriyama going until the end of Z was the better gamble.
Yajirobe finds it preposterous that Karin would be a cat. Pretty weird in a world where anthropomorphic creatures are commonplace on Earth.
The wording of the wish Chaozu was going to make as "Please remove Piccolo Daimao from this Earth" makes me curious as to what would've happened if Daimao didn't kill Chaozu in time. Would he have been transported to another planet rather than being straight up killed?
Episode 112 - Following on from what I said about Roshi, Piccolo killing Shen Long would've made things pretty interesting had he never been restored and, even with that not being the case, helps establish the Piccolo Daimao Arc as the franchise's true transition point as a high-stakes battle series.
Piccolo's betrayal of the Pilaf gang may seem a bit like a typical moustache-twirling villain, though it's good that this can be later recontextualised as the result of being ostracised by humanity and the darkness in his heart that formed by it may have given the child of Katatz some trust issues when it came to humans.
Episode 113 - It's surprising how knowledgeable Piano is. In the last episode, he was already able to pilot a ship in place of Mai. Now he's aware of all 43 areas of Earth (which happens to be a reference to Japan being separated into 43 proper prefectures, though it has an additional 4 for more specialised prefectures) despite probably only having lived 3 days. Goes to show that the more intelligence-oriented non-fighter Mazoku are underrated. Perhaps Piano was akin to a mutant version of the more wise members of the Dragon Clan.
The additions to King Castle with it being the King's 20th anniversary as monarch does feel a little cliche in the "just one day away from retirement" trope kind of way, though adding Suno to be a POV character of the invasion from the average human's perspective made for a great choice of the anime. I also prefer the anime's change of Yamucha and co. collecting Roshi and Chaozu's bodies as it makes more sense for them to be proactive rather than all sitting around. As for the invasion of King Castle, it's pretty strange that the strong guard would be outside the castle, yet beat Piccolo in getting to the throne room. I wouldn't cite it as an anime plot hole though, given how getting on a flying car would've been possible. I also prefer that Piano points out the fleeing King rather than a guard selling him out as it helps keep the integrity of his guard intact and show why he's respected as King.
Even with the boost Bora gave them, Yajirobe still takes until nightfall to reach the top despite being far stronger than Goku was when he climbed the tower. Granted, he had some additional weight to carry, though it does help my hypothesis that Bora may have been stronger than Pre-Karin Galu based on his feats and Goku simply had better stamina.
Yajirobe finds it preposterous that Karin would be a cat. Pretty weird in a world where anthropomorphic creatures are commonplace on Earth.
The wording of the wish Chaozu was going to make as "Please remove Piccolo Daimao from this Earth" makes me curious as to what would've happened if Daimao didn't kill Chaozu in time. Would he have been transported to another planet rather than being straight up killed?
Episode 112 - Following on from what I said about Roshi, Piccolo killing Shen Long would've made things pretty interesting had he never been restored and, even with that not being the case, helps establish the Piccolo Daimao Arc as the franchise's true transition point as a high-stakes battle series.
Piccolo's betrayal of the Pilaf gang may seem a bit like a typical moustache-twirling villain, though it's good that this can be later recontextualised as the result of being ostracised by humanity and the darkness in his heart that formed by it may have given the child of Katatz some trust issues when it came to humans.
Episode 113 - It's surprising how knowledgeable Piano is. In the last episode, he was already able to pilot a ship in place of Mai. Now he's aware of all 43 areas of Earth (which happens to be a reference to Japan being separated into 43 proper prefectures, though it has an additional 4 for more specialised prefectures) despite probably only having lived 3 days. Goes to show that the more intelligence-oriented non-fighter Mazoku are underrated. Perhaps Piano was akin to a mutant version of the more wise members of the Dragon Clan.
The additions to King Castle with it being the King's 20th anniversary as monarch does feel a little cliche in the "just one day away from retirement" trope kind of way, though adding Suno to be a POV character of the invasion from the average human's perspective made for a great choice of the anime. I also prefer the anime's change of Yamucha and co. collecting Roshi and Chaozu's bodies as it makes more sense for them to be proactive rather than all sitting around. As for the invasion of King Castle, it's pretty strange that the strong guard would be outside the castle, yet beat Piccolo in getting to the throne room. I wouldn't cite it as an anime plot hole though, given how getting on a flying car would've been possible. I also prefer that Piano points out the fleeing King rather than a guard selling him out as it helps keep the integrity of his guard intact and show why he's respected as King.
Even with the boost Bora gave them, Yajirobe still takes until nightfall to reach the top despite being far stronger than Goku was when he climbed the tower. Granted, he had some additional weight to carry, though it does help my hypothesis that Bora may have been stronger than Pre-Karin Galu based on his feats and Goku simply had better stamina.
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Are the movies part of this re-watch as well?
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Just DB and Z (though the 2 DBZ TV Specials are included), seeing as how a major part of it is how the anime's quality compares to the manga when it comes to its changes. That, and I don't own any of the movies on DVD, so relying on Kissanime and its constant pop-ups isn't really ideal.
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Episode 114 - Pretty funny how Piccolo Daimao did something close to the "very poor choice of words" routine with the guard long before The Dark Knight happened. Also, with his destruction feat, one of the guards clearly says "machi" (town) as to what he destroyed, so the statement of him casually destroying a city in the strength checker is a mistranslation on Herms' part most likely.
Yajirobe eating so many senzu makes you wonder how things would play out differently if he hadn't been so rash and only ate one. Most likely, Goku would be in top shape to go to Namek with everyone, though it's hard to say if that'd be a good thing without his gravity training. Also, it's nice that Toei remembered their own continuity by implementing the filler of Karin having pots showing the past, present and future as a way to explain how he can see events down below.
It is pretty stupid of a choice that the narrator spoils the Choshinsui being a poison at the end long before the characters reveal it. Thanks for the spoiler.
Episodes 115 and 116 - The quest for the Choshinsui makes the anime version of this arc far better than the manga. Turning it into a mythic quest that tests Goku's strength of character and shows more of the mystical elements of the Dragon World makes it feel far more earned of a power up than Karin simply having the real stuff lying around. The Darkness states that enduring it requires great strength, mind and vitality which matches up with Karin's words in the Viz manga, suggesting that this is an area where Viz trumps Herms in translation accuracy. This explanation does make the Choshinsui in both the anime and manga less of an asspull than it appears to be in that it the attributes slot in quite well as Yuuki, Shouki and Genki respectively; causing the Choshinsui to act as both a strength of character and innate Ki control tempered through training. It's not a one-size fits all power up as some characters may falter in gaining from it if they tried even if stronger than Goku, so it's not as cheap as something like Elder Kaioshin's ritual.
Still, it is disappointing how little struggle Goku had whilst consuming it as even in the anime we're just told he's been writhing in pain for hours. Comparing it to a similar struggle with pain in an 80s Toei anime, Rei enduring Toki pressing his Shinreidai in Hokuto no Ken, we're shown in detail there just how much physical pain and close to the brink of death overcoming this trial was to the character and helps their survival and renewal be so much more worthwhile. I must also say that whilst I like the idea of Goku being tempted to forsake his journey by his illusion friends in a Jesus' temptation in the desert kind of way, the characters do make it too obvious with how they laugh off trying to stop Daimao and even say they've been granted eternal life down there to the point even a still somewhat naive Goku knows it's bullshit. Having the illusions talk depressingly about how Daimao cannot be beaten no matter what would've made more sense.
It is pretty odd the Choshinsui would be stated to draw out all of someone's hidden power when we'd soon see that wasn't true at all. With other things like Shen Long being destroyed, it really makes you wonder if Toriyama indeed intended for the Piccolo Daimao Arc to be where he wrapped up the series.
Also, with Yajirobe's role in all this, it would seem inconsistent that he'd be looking for food after probably eating enough senzu to fill him up for a year, though I'd say it shows he's more of a glutton for taste than someone with a major appetite. I also can't help but notice in the scene where he's dangling off the edge with his loincloth showing that he has the flattest crotch ever seen on a man. Guess he's not just packing a senzu in his shirt.2
As for the events at King Castle, Suno's moment of aiming a gun at Piccolo but going against shooting continues to do a good job of making her a POV character for the average citizen wanting to stop Daimao but seeing the futility. I'd also bring up Piccolo apparently being able to eat meat in the anime, but I wouldn't say it's a contradiction of later events as we're only told Namekians only need water and not that they can only consume water. In other words, various grotesque meats are probably the equivalent of junk food for Piccolo.
As far as more canon aspects of it go, Daimao wanting to abolish laws and not rule the people, instead having them destroy themselves through anarchy, truly makes him an underrated villain in showing the dark side of a society with too much freedom and how it can be just as, if not more, of a scary system to imagine than a totalitarian dictatorship along the lines of Freeza.
Yajirobe eating so many senzu makes you wonder how things would play out differently if he hadn't been so rash and only ate one. Most likely, Goku would be in top shape to go to Namek with everyone, though it's hard to say if that'd be a good thing without his gravity training. Also, it's nice that Toei remembered their own continuity by implementing the filler of Karin having pots showing the past, present and future as a way to explain how he can see events down below.
It is pretty stupid of a choice that the narrator spoils the Choshinsui being a poison at the end long before the characters reveal it. Thanks for the spoiler.
Episodes 115 and 116 - The quest for the Choshinsui makes the anime version of this arc far better than the manga. Turning it into a mythic quest that tests Goku's strength of character and shows more of the mystical elements of the Dragon World makes it feel far more earned of a power up than Karin simply having the real stuff lying around. The Darkness states that enduring it requires great strength, mind and vitality which matches up with Karin's words in the Viz manga, suggesting that this is an area where Viz trumps Herms in translation accuracy. This explanation does make the Choshinsui in both the anime and manga less of an asspull than it appears to be in that it the attributes slot in quite well as Yuuki, Shouki and Genki respectively; causing the Choshinsui to act as both a strength of character and innate Ki control tempered through training. It's not a one-size fits all power up as some characters may falter in gaining from it if they tried even if stronger than Goku, so it's not as cheap as something like Elder Kaioshin's ritual.
Still, it is disappointing how little struggle Goku had whilst consuming it as even in the anime we're just told he's been writhing in pain for hours. Comparing it to a similar struggle with pain in an 80s Toei anime, Rei enduring Toki pressing his Shinreidai in Hokuto no Ken, we're shown in detail there just how much physical pain and close to the brink of death overcoming this trial was to the character and helps their survival and renewal be so much more worthwhile. I must also say that whilst I like the idea of Goku being tempted to forsake his journey by his illusion friends in a Jesus' temptation in the desert kind of way, the characters do make it too obvious with how they laugh off trying to stop Daimao and even say they've been granted eternal life down there to the point even a still somewhat naive Goku knows it's bullshit. Having the illusions talk depressingly about how Daimao cannot be beaten no matter what would've made more sense.
It is pretty odd the Choshinsui would be stated to draw out all of someone's hidden power when we'd soon see that wasn't true at all. With other things like Shen Long being destroyed, it really makes you wonder if Toriyama indeed intended for the Piccolo Daimao Arc to be where he wrapped up the series.
Also, with Yajirobe's role in all this, it would seem inconsistent that he'd be looking for food after probably eating enough senzu to fill him up for a year, though I'd say it shows he's more of a glutton for taste than someone with a major appetite. I also can't help but notice in the scene where he's dangling off the edge with his loincloth showing that he has the flattest crotch ever seen on a man. Guess he's not just packing a senzu in his shirt.
2As for the events at King Castle, Suno's moment of aiming a gun at Piccolo but going against shooting continues to do a good job of making her a POV character for the average citizen wanting to stop Daimao but seeing the futility. I'd also bring up Piccolo apparently being able to eat meat in the anime, but I wouldn't say it's a contradiction of later events as we're only told Namekians only need water and not that they can only consume water. In other words, various grotesque meats are probably the equivalent of junk food for Piccolo.
As far as more canon aspects of it go, Daimao wanting to abolish laws and not rule the people, instead having them destroy themselves through anarchy, truly makes him an underrated villain in showing the dark side of a society with too much freedom and how it can be just as, if not more, of a scary system to imagine than a totalitarian dictatorship along the lines of Freeza.
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Captain Cadaver said:
Even if the movies don't exactly fit into the main series, it still seems like it was intended to be tied to the anime continuity when considering they made an entire arc around a movie villain. In my personal re-watch I went through the movies by release date order.
So you were watching DB and Z through DVD? The DBox's or Orange Bricks? Assuming you have a lot of storage on your computer, you should start Torrenting. You can get some of the best versions of the series through that (DBox quality with the addition of broadcast audio).
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One of the many reasons why the Garlic Jr. Arc failedFuture Warrior said:
I may rewatch the movies, though probably not until finishing the main series.
Orange Bricks (well, Blue Bricks for Part 1 technically), as they're the version of the series I got years ago and don't have the money to be getting all the Dragon Boxes. I'm not that bothered about the picture and vocal quality as those of the bricks still hold up. As for torrenting, I probably don't have the space for it since my laptop also has a lot of work saved on it, not to mention finding safe links can be difficult for some series (especially in the UK where a lot of pirating options get clamped down on hard by the government and service providers).
Episode 117 - So, following on from my reference about the previous episode, Piccolo makes it so the humans stop living in a society and basically tells them
2 Jokes aside though, this just shows the potential Piccolo Daimao had as a great villain and that Toei did a good job delivering on it. Having #8 make an appearance in Suno's sub-plot also helps the setting of the arc feel more lived in, compared to the manga where character reactions to Piccolo's rule are pretty minimalist. Goku gaining the ability to sense Ki works well with the explanation of how the Choshinsui works. It also helps show it as being better than some of the other "instant power ups" in the series since it adds something additional to the user's arsenal, rather than just increasing power (Elder Kaioshin's ritual was suggested to take away Gohan's softness, though that didn't really seem that new when his SS2 transformation already did that).
Episode 118 - Continuing from what I said about utilising the support cast in the last episode, this episode further proves how much better this arc is in the anime with Yamucha and Lunch both getting their time to shine. It's also pretty funny how oblivious Bulma's parents are to the gravity of the situation and wonder if this is what gave Toriyama the idea of how they should be characterised in the Freeza and Boo Arcs.
Episode 119 - I have mixed thoughts on the anime having Tenshinhan put up a better fight against Drum. It's good to see him not get fodderised, but having Drum absolutely annihilate Ten in the manga when Tambourine was nothing to Goku helped display the sheer difference between Daimao's old and young selves without him even having to fight. It is far better that Ten wasn't an idiot who didn't bother noticing the Denshi Jar was cracked like in the manga, though him surviving using the Mafuba without much explanation could've been better beyond having to infer there's technicalities when it comes to a vessel being broken. It could just be that Tenshinhan had greater life force than Roshi or Mutaito given his youth and familiarity with using the Kikoho, plus Kami implied he could survive using the Mafuba in the 23rd TB.
As for Goku's role in the episode, it was good for Gyumao and Chichi to have a role in this that helps show Piccolo's crusade against martial artists rather than having it be something that never came to fruition. His arrival to save Ten and kill Drum is one that will start a trend of "fashionably late Goku" in the next two major battle arcs (his arrival against Nappa and then against the Ginyus and later Freeza) and it's difficult to say which is best. Drum is definitely the most impressive oneshotting of the bunch, Nappa and Freeza have the most drama behind them and the Ginyus helped show the results of his training in more than just power.
I also like that in the display of the civilians running from Metro West, you see a lot of the cars explode and don't see the passengers afterwards, suggesting they've been killed. It does a good job in showing this arc's role as a full transitional point in the series' tone compared to prior ones where characters would survive such injuries and a lot of the deaths would be treat as comical outside of named characters.
Episode 120 - Goku VS Piccolo Daimao is pretty good. Whilst you can draw comparisons in the story structure between it and the Tao Pai Pai rematch, it still stands on its own as an impressive match that shows the results of Goku's trials to get here. Also, I have to wonder if the change to the anime in making all Namekians having 5 fingers per hand was purely to remove any yakuza connotations or if it was also for Piccolo's "5 seconds" scene to not result in him randomly sprouting another finger.
Piccolo Daimao stating how using his full power drains his lifespan despite how little it'll end up being even by the end of the next arc really adds another one to the pile of suggestions this may have been supposed to be the series' final arc. There's so much of a sense of increasing the scale and putting in place permanent consequences it definitely could've been a good ending.
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Captain Cadaver said:
I've heard the Blue Bricks are decent in their presentation, but the Orange Bricks is widely regarded to be some of the worst the series has to offer in terms of video quality. That is, if you're personally not bothered by it then that's a different matter entirely.
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I've always seen the hate for the orange bricks as widely overblown. I'll admit it is strange how they cropped the images slightly but can say the visual quality gets highly underrated. Kai and the Dragon Boxes certainly have more clarity, though some level of charm is lost in straying away from the darker and rough palette of the original.
Episodes 121 and 122 - Following on from what I said about an increase in scale, you can really see that in this fight as, despite being near equals, even light attacks could cause a lot of damage if well placed such as Piccolo severely damaging Goku's leg with a simple eye laser and his other leg and arm by blowing a rock forward. It really created a good sense of them both being so powerful they couldn't be careless against each other to an extent no later fight really matched in the same manner, the only things coming close being off-guard damage such as Goku taking Piccolo's mouth beam or Gohan shielding Vegeta from Cell. Goku's tears and shout of victory also show how much this victory meant to him in a more ecstatic, emotional way than any of his other climactic battles, though his victory at the 23rd TB comes close and him defeating Freeza is even better at conveying his emotions in a subtle way though to basically the opposite feelings of his victory here.
I can't help but find it funny when Ten says "There's nothing I can do anymore!" Ought to be the catchphrase of about 90% of the cast from this point on2 In all seriousness though, it was a good character moment to see Ten still confidently say he'll train hard enough to beat Goku again. It shows just how determined he was not to get left in the dust and it's a pity power creep forced him into irrelevancy by the Cell Game.
Episodes 121 and 122 - Following on from what I said about an increase in scale, you can really see that in this fight as, despite being near equals, even light attacks could cause a lot of damage if well placed such as Piccolo severely damaging Goku's leg with a simple eye laser and his other leg and arm by blowing a rock forward. It really created a good sense of them both being so powerful they couldn't be careless against each other to an extent no later fight really matched in the same manner, the only things coming close being off-guard damage such as Goku taking Piccolo's mouth beam or Gohan shielding Vegeta from Cell. Goku's tears and shout of victory also show how much this victory meant to him in a more ecstatic, emotional way than any of his other climactic battles, though his victory at the 23rd TB comes close and him defeating Freeza is even better at conveying his emotions in a subtle way though to basically the opposite feelings of his victory here.
I can't help but find it funny when Ten says "There's nothing I can do anymore!" Ought to be the catchphrase of about 90% of the cast from this point on
2 In all seriousness though, it was a good character moment to see Ten still confidently say he'll train hard enough to beat Goku again. It shows just how determined he was not to get left in the dust and it's a pity power creep forced him into irrelevancy by the Cell Game.
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Captain Cadaver said:
If anything the Orange Bricks look's constantly bright at all times, but the bigger problem is that it has no right being marketed as a ''remaster'' when it has shit like this.
Not trying to cause a flame war or anything, I'm just curious as to why some people enjoy these home video releases. I don't care if somebody likes them.
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The majority of the anime I have seen on the orange bricks doesn't look like that. I haven't watched all of my orange bricks yet, but several frames looking like that wouldn't change my enjoyment of the anime. Not ideal obviously, but I can't say that I care about it.
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I've simply never found a major problem with them, though it has been a while since I viewed them to see if those comparisons hold true for all versions of the release. I don't personally remember those overly rough edits, but seeing things you don't remember is a major part of the rewatch, so we'll see
I haven't encountered any problems with the visual quality for the Part 1 DVDs, so I'm pretty sure those bad resolutions are something that only affects the first 3 Seasons of the DBZ orange bricks.
I haven't encountered any problems with the visual quality for the Part 1 DVDs, so I'm pretty sure those bad resolutions are something that only affects the first 3 Seasons of the DBZ orange bricks.
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Captain Cadaver said:I've simply never found a major problem with them, though it has been a while since I viewed them to see if those comparisons hold true for all versions of the release. I don't personally remember those overly rough edits, but seeing things you don't remember is a major part of the rewatch, so we'll see
I haven't encountered any problems with the visual quality for the Part 1 DVDs, so I'm pretty sure those bad resolutions are something that only affects the first 3 Seasons of the DBZ orange bricks.
Do you have GT?
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I do, though the question is will I re-watch it? 
Then again, I've tolerated Super and worse in recent years, so it's a maybe.
Then again, I've tolerated Super and worse in recent years, so it's a maybe.
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I plan on watching GT for the first time all the way through (My last attempt I only made it up to the early portions of the Baby arc) once I'm finished with Z, so I'll definitely tune in if there's a thread for that.
