DragonBall Super vs DragonBall GT

[Papasmurf]

To be fair, 's granddaddy knowing about SSJ4 is the legit definition of an asspull. Wouldn't say it's better than UI at all in that regard, especially when as soon as SSJ4 debuted all the other Saiyans just became reduced to helping recharge.

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

To be fair, 's granddaddy knowing about SSJ4 is the legit definition of an asspull. Wouldn't say it's better than UI at all in that regard, especially when as soon as SSJ4 debuted all the other Saiyans just became reduced to helping recharge.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The increase PowerScaling is the absolute best thing about it, because the strength characters possessed in the classic battles of the series' original run seems far less spectacular & that's why i prefer SUPER.

So battles that actually had some level of strategy and skill such as those of early DB are far worse because they don't have characters destroying the Universe?

I agree strength alone shouldn't be narrated as the only solution in winning battles, & it wasn't.
That was shown through characters like Roshi, Krillin, Android16 & Android17.
Krillin's sparring with Gohan, Piccolo's loss against a bug.

It was seldom used in a manner of skill being the defining factor though, plus having skill be important still required the characters to get stronger by an illogical degree to pull off.

They may not've beaten the BIG BAD but PowerScaling shouldn't have to remain at a less than spectacular level to pull off interesting twists, nor should it take a nose dive in a series where that's a key element simply based on that notion.

It should still remain balanced as to not make so many previously impactful characters look like a joke and for there to actually be room to keep fights and escalation engaging. How exactly is a fight supposed to be engaging when the only new way to present how strong the characters are is by how many Universes they can destroy, or where do you go from there?
Power creep's been a problem with the series since the Freeza Arc. It doesn't need to get worse.

Because the likes of an annoying woman constantly talking about love and beauty or a guy making beep boop noises in a robot suit are entirely refreshing and likeable...

They've taken something that's another key element of the series & added a limitation to it.

I'm starting to believe you don't understand the necessity of limitations to keep a story engaging. The removal of limitations leads to plot conveniences becoming far more common and the writing of a series becoming worse, with Super being a good example of this.

Yeah, fur & guyliner.

Still more creative than a palette swap.

GoldenFrieza added an unexplored possibility to a popular character.

It didn't. It just gave him a palette swap form. Reviving him is what offered unexplored possibilities (and not until the ToP), not giving him an uncreative new form.

It's not the palette swaps that has my interests but the increase in new potential it brings from the Saiyan God concept.

You mean the potential to give Goku/Vegeta a power up, the former of which becomes irrelevant less than 10 episodes after it first appears? Yeah, that's certainly new potential.

The entire GT series was stretched beyond its necessary limitation.
The tournament of power added a battle royal to the DragonBall Univsere involving heroes or the strongest from different universes not simply fighting for a cash prize but fighting to continue existing while the all mighty Zeno watches & erasing each losing universe one by one.

Super even existing is stretching it beyond it's necessary length.
We already know Universe 7 will survive to align with the end of a manga, making it's events predetermined and any tension one could find within it completely vapid.

When characters are that powerful they don't need a sparkling personality.

They do if you care about important things like character writing, though it's clear you only care about power inflation.

Jiren's demeanor does very well in conveying an intimating presence.

Unlike any villain I have ever seen before...

SuperSaiyan God is a completely new idea to the DragonBall Universe.

New idea doesn't equate to good. I fail to see how anyone can consider a form gained by 6 people holding hands to be considered good.

SuperSaiyan 4 simply brought back the Saiyan tail & transformed. There's your asspull.

This makes it clear you don't even know the meaning of the phrases expanding on existing material or asspull; the latter being for an author to bring a concept out of nowhere in an overly convenient manner. Elder Kaioshin knowing about SS4 is indeed an asspull, though the way of acquiring it and how it ties into the themes of the arc such as the primal conflict between the Saiyans and Tsufurians is not.
Goku gaining a new form by being hit with the Genki-Dama makes no sense due to it already being established the Genki-Dama won't harm the pure hearted or the notion of such a thing being possible never being brought up prior, not to mention the Genki formed by so few people shouldn't be that great in the first place. He can also spam this form at convenient moments despite the point of it being it isn't permanent, thereby making it's concept and execution an asspull.
Vegeta's is even worse, with him getting a new form just because of "muh pride", despite him always being extremely prideful, as well as being able to spam this form that should use up a high amount of Ki even after using draining attacks such as the Final Explosion because plot armour. Asspull 101.

Yet still looks billions of times better than the GT version.

Because why should it make sense if it looks nice or cool?

That notion sums up Super in a nutshell, as well as the majority of your "positive" notions about the series.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Bulma looks tons TONS BETTER.

 

[VampireWicked]

So battles that actually had some level of strategy and skill such as those of early DB are far worse because they don't have characters destroying the Universe?

It's not a matter of being worse simply because.
DragonBall to DragonBall Z weren't filled with terrible battles. The series has scaled up & evolved in terms of power level, & so has the level of destruction.

So TO ME DragonBall to DragonBall Z are great but compared to DragonBall SUPER they were less spectacular when it came to the power levels.

But Believe whatever you want, SUPER isn't lacking in skill or strategy, again that was the point behind Roshi, Krillin, Android16 & Android17, Krillin's sparring with Gohan, etc.
And even HIT vs Jiren.

The underline message was to allow weaker characters to hold their own & surpass their limitations.
HIT himself is the very definition of that as he is weaker than SuperSaiyan Blue yet manages to hold his own not through strength but strategy & skilled techniques.

It was seldom used in a manner of skill being the defining factor though, plus having skill be important still required the characters to get stronger by an illogical degree to pull off.

Done so there'd be continued usage of the characters.
Even with techniques such as HIT has it becomes pointless if every character has enough brute force to slam through it.

So it's either increase these lower level characters enough to be useful, or simply get rid of them altogether.

It should still remain balanced as to not make so many previously impactful characters look like a joke and for there to actually be room to keep fights and escalation engaging. How exactly is a fight supposed to be engaging when the only new way to present how strong the characters are is by how many Universes they can destroy, or where do you go from there?
Power creep's been a problem with the series since the Freeza Arc. It doesn't need to get worse.

What Anime/Manga series you think this is.

I totally agree there can be more than the focus of pure strength & power deciding victory.
But this isn't Bleach or Naruto.
There's alot of stuff i wished Akira Toriyama followed up on & expanded, but i'm not going to waste time complaining about every little thing & making up poor excuses for continuing to watch the series either.

I take it as it is, hope for the best, or quit watching altogether & let those who enjoy it, have it.

Because the likes of an annoying woman constantly talking about love and beauty or a guy making beep boop noises in a robot suit are entirely refreshing and likeable...

No as there's other characters like Beerus, Whis, Vados, Kefla, Toppo, Jiren, HIT, etc.
And none were created from a wish for a pair of panties from a "hot babe".

I'm starting to believe you don't understand the necessity of limitations to keep a story engaging. The removal of limitations leads to plot conveniences becoming far more common and the writing of a series becoming worse, with Super being a good example of this.

I see the dependency on limitations as a way of keeping something engaging a lack in creativity.

What's the point of creating a fictional universe & limiting possibilities.

Still more creative than a palette swap.

It's all yours dude.

It didn't. It just gave him a palette swap form. Reviving him is what offered unexplored possibilities (and not until the ToP), not giving him an uncreative new form.

It's not about the color palette but what it represents.

You mean the potential to give Goku/Vegeta a power up, the former of which becomes irrelevant less than 10 episodes after it first appears? Yeah, that's certainly new potential.

And SuperSaiyan 4 was what exactly.

Super even existing is stretching it beyond it's necessary length.
We already know Universe 7 will survive to align with the end of a manga, making it's events predetermined and any tension one could find within it completely vapid.

And yet you're still watching. Even after you're complaints & criticism can't be all that vapid when you're still coming back for more. So it's doing something right.

They do if you care about important things like character writing, though it's clear you only care about power inflation.

What's clear is you only see what you want to see & that's how you miss everything else.

Unlike any villain I have ever seen before...

Of course there's others just as if not more intimating then Jiren, but every powerful character doesn't have to be loud & obnoxious, super cheerful, or a sparkling nitwit.

There's nothing wrong with the strong silent type with a mysterious past.
It makes it that much more challenging & interesting when trying to figure them out.

New idea doesn't equate to good. I fail to see how anyone can consider a form gained by 6 people holding hands to be considered good.

Maybe they're the same people who considered a form gained by two people ridiculously posing, or simply putting on an earring good.

This makes it clear you don't even know the meaning of the phrases expanding on existing material or asspull; the latter being for an author to bring a concept out of nowhere in an overly convenient manner. Elder Kaioshin knowing about SS4 is indeed an asspull, though the way of acquiring it and how it ties into the themes of the arc such as the primal conflict between the Saiyans and Tsufurians is not.
Goku gaining a new form by being hit with the Genki-Dama makes no sense due to it already being established the Genki-Dama won't harm the pure hearted or the notion of such a thing being possible never being brought up prior, not to mention the Genki formed by so few people shouldn't be that great in the first place. He can also spam this form at convenient moments despite the point of it being it isn't permanent, thereby making it's concept and execution an asspull.
Vegeta's is even worse, with him getting a new form just because of "muh pride", despite him always being extremely prideful, as well as being able to spam this form that should use up a high amount of Ki even after using draining attacks such as the Final Explosion because plot armour. Asspull 101.

Goku going from SuperSaiyan Kid to Adult SuperSaiyan 4 in 0 to 60seconds dispite unable to hold SuperSaiyan 3 as a kid.

Or Bluma building a Blutz Wave Generator so Vegeta can reach SuperSaiyan 4, which isn't permanent because his tail doesn't remain but convenient enough so he & Goku can fuse into Gogeta.

Rildo” as long as there’s metal on this planet I’m invincible!”

A few episodes later dies from a kamehameha on planet full of metal.


Goku swallows a DragonBall, survives & Nuova Shenron emerges from Goku's forehead, purified by the latter's positive energy.

Kid Goku taking on both Frieza & PerfectCell & wins.

Hell Fighter 17 was built in hell & could easily fuse with Android17 no problem.

There's your AssPull 101.

Because why should it make sense if it looks nice or cool?

That notion sums up Super in a nutshell, as well as the majority of your "positive" notions about the series.

It's not simply because SUPER looks nice or is cool.
I like DragonBall SUPER because i enjoy the possibilities it has shown.
The expansion on the Deities, the addition of The Gods of Destruction & introduction of GodKi.
The fact that it's not just mortals involved, but beings from different universes.

You criticize me for enjoying SUPER because & not seeing it as you do. Really what does it matter to you how enjoyable i find it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Done so there'd be continued usage of the characters.
Even with techniques such as HIT has it becomes pointless if every character has enough brute force to slam through it.
So it's either increase these lower level characters enough to be useful, or simply get rid of them altogether.

This basically contradicts your previous paragraph of power scaling being a good thing, since you're outright admitting nothing in the series can happen any more without it.

What Anime/Manga series you think this is.

It's not that I expected things to change, but as I said, power inflation being the only source of progression causes a series to get boring.

I totally agree there can be more than the focus of pure strength & power deciding victory.
But this isn't Bleach or Naruto.

Of all the series to use as examples, you use the other two with terrible power inflation and just as poor quality writing?

There's alot of stuff i wished Akira Toriyama followed up on & expanded, but i'm not going to waste time complaining about every little thing & making up poor excuses for continuing to watch the series either.

If you've gone into numerous paragraphs of why Super is great, you've already done the latter.

No as there's other characters like Beerus, Whis, Vados

The former two of which only rotate between two or three personality traits and the latter having too little screentime to flesh out her character.

Kefla

The combination of two annoying characters into one.

Toppo

Doesn't have much depth beyond parodying super sentai shows.

Jiren, HIT

The duo of blandness.

If you're just looking for the characters as a source of entertainment and not their writing, then that's fine and I can understand, but it's best to make such clear when talking about the characters being a "good" aspect.

And none were created from a wish for a pair of panties from a "hot babe".

None of GT's characters were a boring Ginyu/Tullece ripoff, or spent 20+ episodes preaching about love, or a broken Gary Stu who had his backstory lazily infodumped, etc.

I see the dependency on limitations as a way of keeping something engaging a lack in creativity.

What's the point of creating a fictional universe & limiting possibilities.

You might be confusing dependency of limitations with internal logic. Applying some rules to a series and how characters work using them is what makes a power system engaging and makes any sort of combat interesting.
You can chuck those rules away to make things "entertaining". It'll also make things nonsensical.

It's not about the color palette but what it represents.

It represents nothing beyond a lazy power up.

And SuperSaiyan 4 was what exactly.

Not arguing it wasn't, but trying to say SSG and SSB are anything different just because of having "God" slapped onto their name is pretentious. Maybe they were different in premise, but in execution? Absolutely not.

And yet you're still watching. Even after you're complaints & criticism can't be all that vapid when you're still coming back for more. So it's doing something right.

If it wasn't for discussion on this forum, I would've dropped it long ago.

What's clear is you only see what you want to see & that's how you miss everything else.

The irony here is delightful.

Of course there's others just as if not more intimating then Jiren, but every powerful character doesn't have to be loud & obnoxious, super cheerful, or a sparkling nitwit.

Never said they had to be bombastic, but a good character at least needs more layers to them than being stoic in order to not be bland.

There's nothing wrong with the strong silent type with a mysterious past.
It makes it that much more challenging & interesting when trying to figure them out.

And that past of his was given no hints or foreshadowing to it due to his lack of proper characterisation, thereby leading to it being poorly infodumped by Belmod.

Maybe they're the same people who considered a form gained by two people ridiculously posing, or simply putting on an earring good.

Was never defending Fusion, which is also an asspull.

Goku going from SuperSaiyan Kid to Adult SuperSaiyan 4 in 0 to 60seconds dispite unable to hold SuperSaiyan 3 as a kid.

He was able to maintain the latter after getting his tail removed.

Or Bluma building a Blutz Wave Generator so Vegeta can reach SuperSaiyan 4, which isn't permanent because his tail doesn't remain but convenient enough so he & Goku can fuse into Gogeta.

She already had that for Baby when she was possessed by him. If you're going to talk about the many asspulls of GT, at least use the right one.

Rildo” as long as there’s metal on this planet I’m invincible!”
A few episodes later dies from a kamehameha on planet full of metal.

Goku swallows a DragonBall, survives & Nuova Shenron emerges from Goku's forehead, purified by the latter's positive energy.

Wasn't saying GT was free of asspulls, yet to say any of them stack up Vegeta getting far stronger because "muh pride" and being able to spam that form despite doing so many draining things? I doubt it.

Kid Goku taking on both Frieza & PerfectCell & wins.

He was already far stronger than Boo at this point. Don't see why out of the many asspulls in GT you find this to be the one worth bringing up.

It's not simply because SUPER looks nice or is cool.
I like DragonBall SUPER because i enjoy the possibilities it has shown.
The expansion on the Deities, the addition of The Gods of Destruction & introduction of GodKi.

All of which are contrived retcons.

The fact that it's not just mortals involved, but beings from different universes.

Those Universes still function by similar societies and power systems as the main one and barely get any sort of focus. Whilst I admit introducing a Multiverse was initially a good way at increasing power inflation, it makes little difference when our major exposures to fighters from other Universes make little enough of a difference from past opponents for us to immediately view them as being from another Universe.

You criticize me for enjoying SUPER because & not seeing it as you do. Really what does it matter to you how enjoyable i find it.

I'm not criticising you for enjoying it, so long as you're aware of it's flaws and mainly see it as only being good for pure entertainment. Defending it's poor plot/character writing and the contrivances that are just as bad, if not worse, than GT on the other hand is something I will criticise.

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

Done so there'd be continued usage of the characters.
Even with techniques such as HIT has it becomes pointless if every character has enough brute force to slam through it.
So it's either increase these lower level characters enough to be useful, or simply get rid of them altogether.

This basically contradicts your previous paragraph of power scaling being a good thing, since you're outright admitting nothing in the series can happen any more without it.

What Anime/Manga series you think this is.

It's not that I expected things to change, but as I said, power inflation being the only source of progression causes a series to get boring.

I totally agree there can be more than the focus of pure strength & power deciding victory.
But this isn't Bleach or Naruto.

Of all the series to use as examples, you use the other two with terrible power inflation and just as poor quality writing?

There's alot of stuff i wished Akira Toriyama followed up on & expanded, but i'm not going to waste time complaining about every little thing & making up poor excuses for continuing to watch the series either.

If you've gone into numerous paragraphs of why Super is great, you've already done the latter.

No as there's other characters like Beerus, Whis, Vados

The former two of which only rotate between two or three personality traits and the latter having too little screentime to flesh out her character.

Kefla

The combination of two annoying characters into one.

Toppo

Doesn't have much depth beyond parodying super sentai shows.

Jiren, HIT

The duo of blandness.

If you're just looking for the characters as a source of entertainment and not their writing, then that's fine and I can understand, but it's best to make such clear when talking about the characters being a "good" aspect.

And none were created from a wish for a pair of panties from a "hot babe".

None of GT's characters were a boring Ginyu/Tullece ripoff, or spent 20+ episodes preaching about love, or a broken Gary Stu who had his backstory lazily infodumped, etc.

I see the dependency on limitations as a way of keeping something engaging a lack in creativity.

What's the point of creating a fictional universe & limiting possibilities.

You might be confusing dependency of limitations with internal logic. Applying some rules to a series and how characters work using them is what makes a power system engaging and makes any sort of combat interesting.
You can chuck those rules away to make things "entertaining". It'll also make things nonsensical.

It's not about the color palette but what it represents.

It represents nothing beyond a lazy power up.

And SuperSaiyan 4 was what exactly.

Not arguing it wasn't, but trying to say SSG and SSB are anything different just because of having "God" slapped onto their name is pretentious. Maybe they were different in premise, but in execution? Absolutely not.

And yet you're still watching. Even after you're complaints & criticism can't be all that vapid when you're still coming back for more. So it's doing something right.

If it wasn't for discussion on this forum, I would've dropped it long ago.

What's clear is you only see what you want to see & that's how you miss everything else.

The irony here is delightful.

Of course there's others just as if not more intimating then Jiren, but every powerful character doesn't have to be loud & obnoxious, super cheerful, or a sparkling nitwit.

Never said they had to be bombastic, but a good character at least needs more layers to them than being stoic in order to not be bland.

There's nothing wrong with the strong silent type with a mysterious past.
It makes it that much more challenging & interesting when trying to figure them out.

And that past of his was given no hints or foreshadowing to it due to his lack of proper characterisation, thereby leading to it being poorly infodumped by Belmod.

Maybe they're the same people who considered a form gained by two people ridiculously posing, or simply putting on an earring good.

Was never defending Fusion, which is also an asspull.

Goku going from SuperSaiyan Kid to Adult SuperSaiyan 4 in 0 to 60seconds dispite unable to hold SuperSaiyan 3 as a kid.

He was able to maintain the latter after getting his tail removed.

Or Bluma building a Blutz Wave Generator so Vegeta can reach SuperSaiyan 4, which isn't permanent because his tail doesn't remain but convenient enough so he & Goku can fuse into Gogeta.

She already had that for Baby when she was possessed by him. If you're going to talk about the many asspulls of GT, at least use the right one.

Rildo” as long as there’s metal on this planet I’m invincible!”
A few episodes later dies from a kamehameha on planet full of metal.

Goku swallows a DragonBall, survives & Nuova Shenron emerges from Goku's forehead, purified by the latter's positive energy.

Wasn't saying GT was free of asspulls, yet to say any of them stack up Vegeta getting far stronger because "muh pride" and being able to spam that form despite doing so many draining things? I doubt it.

Kid Goku taking on both Frieza & PerfectCell & wins.

He was already far stronger than Boo at this point. Don't see why out of the many asspulls in GT you find this to be the one worth bringing up.

It's not simply because SUPER looks nice or is cool.
I like DragonBall SUPER because i enjoy the possibilities it has shown.
The expansion on the Deities, the addition of The Gods of Destruction & introduction of GodKi.

All of which are contrived retcons.

The fact that it's not just mortals involved, but beings from different universes.

Those Universes still function by similar societies and power systems as the main one and barely get any sort of focus. Whilst I admit introducing a Multiverse was initially a good way at increasing power inflation, it makes little difference when our major exposures to fighters from other Universes make little enough of a difference from past opponents for us to immediately view them as being from another Universe.

You criticize me for enjoying SUPER because & not seeing it as you do. Really what does it matter to you how enjoyable i find it.

I'm not criticising you for enjoying it, so long as you're aware of it's flaws and mainly see it as only being good for pure entertainment. Defending it's poor plot/character writing and the contrivances that are just as bad, if not worse, than GT on the other hand is something I will criticise.

 

[VampireWicked]

This basically contradicts your previous paragraph of power scaling being a good thing, since you're outright admitting nothing in the series can happen any more without it.

This is why there's so many assumptions made, fan head cannons created, & pointless so-called debates going on for 20+ pages.
Ridiculously bad interpretations.

Do you understand what PowerScaling is?

Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.

The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C.

So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C.

Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well.

So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.

Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power.

As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level.



PowerScaling can also be used to show a character's improvement even when comparing them to themselves.

If 2nd & 3rd rate characters in SUPER has nothing to offer beyond that of their 2nd & 3rd rate DragonBall Z counterparts, then what would be the point in introducing for such events as participation in the tournament of power.
More than likely 2nd & 3rd rate characters in DragonBall SUPER would remain or end up less used as they were in DragonBall Z.

So PowerScaling applied increased the chances of usefulness of 2nd & 3rd rate characters such as Master Roshi.
Without some kind of increase, whether it be purely power or skilled technique, the resulting scaling was a good thing.

It's not that I expected things to change, but as I said, power inflation being the only source of progression causes a series to get boring.

I can understand that & i'm disagreeing with you.
I am simply saying i haven't reached that level yet where i find it boring.

Of all the series to use as examples, you use the other two with terrible power inflation and just as poor quality writing?

Bleach & Naruto doesn't rely solely on power inflation.

If you've gone into numerous paragraphs of why Super is great, you've already done the latter.

I've gone into numerous paragraphs of why SUPER is great because you asked for it.
I was satisfied with the list of why i prefer SUPER over GT, but you picked it apart.

The former two of which only rotate between two or three personality traits and the latter having too little screentime to flesh out her character.

The combination of two annoying characters into one.

Doesn't have much depth beyond parodying super sentai shows.

The duo of blandness.

If you're just looking for the characters as a source of entertainment and not their writing, then that's fine and I can understand, but it's best to make such clear when talking about the characters being a "good" aspect.

None of GT's characters were a boring Ginyu/Tullece ripoff, or spent 20+ episodes preaching about love, or a broken Gary Stu who had his backstory lazily infodumped, etc.

And.
Dude it's like you're attempting to debate me over MY favorite flavor of ice cream.

Do you honestly think i give a crap what you or anyone see as good writing or what should be considered good aspects for any given characters in any given series.
Noooope!

I'm not impressed by your pretentious outlook or criticisms on what i enjoy.
You believe GT is any better when it comes to writing, has more character depth, then good for you.
But don't get upset because SUPER has a following.

You might be confusing dependency of limitations with internal logic. Applying some rules to a series and how characters work using them is what makes a power system engaging and makes any sort of combat interesting.
You can chuck those rules away to make things "entertaining". It'll also make things nonsensical.

You don't have to toss away internal logic with over the top larger than life characters.
Not every fictional universe has to remain so grounded to be engaging & entertaining at the same time.

And what you view as entertaining is not the universal rule everyone should apply.

It represents nothing beyond a lazy power up.

Not arguing it wasn't, but trying to say SSG and SSB are anything different just because of having "God" slapped onto their name is pretentious. Maybe they were different in premise, but in execution? Absolutely not.

I view it as a representation of divine ki, how small the mortal existence was in comparison to their place in the universe, where mortals stand in the presence of greater deities, Gods Of Destruction, Angels, etc.
All of which could easily destroy the universe & not even Goku at his mortal best could do anything to stop it.

So SuperSaiyan God gave them a chance by placing them on a new level.


SuperSaiyan 4 i saw as Goku with a hairy back & shoulders.

If it wasn't for discussion on this forum, I would've dropped it long ago.

So you watch because you don't wanna left out.

The irony here is delightful.

Yeah it is.

Never said they had to be bombastic, but a good character at least needs more layers to them than being stoic in order to not be bland.

And that past of his was given no hints or foreshadowing to it due to his lack of proper characterisation, thereby leading to it being poorly infodumped by Belmod.

It's that curiosity in not knowing how many layers Jiren has that i find interesting.
There's no reason who he is can't be revealed over time.
That's the difference between 12 episodes & 129+.

Was never defending Fusion, which is also an asspull.

What isn't these days.
That's how things are written, the heroes 90% of the time has an ace up their sleeves.

He was able to maintain the latter after getting his tail removed.

You mean after getting his tail.

Funny how Gotenks could maintain SuperSaiyan 3 for 5minutes but Kid Goku couldn't.

She already had that for Baby when she was possessed by him. If you're going to talk about the many asspulls of GT, at least use the right one.

Wasn't saying GT was free of asspulls, yet to say any of them stack up Vegeta getting far stronger because "muh pride" and being able to spam that form despite doing so many draining things? I doubt it.

He was already far stronger than Boo at this point. Don't see why out of the many asspulls in GT you find this to be the one worth bringing up.

ll of which are contrived retcons.

Those Universes still function by similar societies and power systems as the main one and barely get any sort of focus. Whilst I admit introducing a Multiverse was initially a good way at increasing power inflation, it makes little difference when our major exposures to fighters from other Universes make little enough of a difference from past opponents for us to immediately view them as being from another Universe.

Dude i'm cutting this short, i got other things I wanna do.

I'm not criticising you for enjoying it, so long as you're aware of it's flaws and mainly see it as only being good for pure entertainment. Defending it's poor plot/character writing and the contrivances that are just as bad, if not worse, than GT on the other hand is something I will criticise.

As i said i don't really care what your idea of what's good or bad is, i'm not watching SUPER for you or anyone else.

Don't get so high on some sense of inflated self worth that you think you know better than anyone else on what justifies as enjoyable entertainment when it comes to the preferences of others.

You don't define the general guideline as to what should & shouldn't be watched. That type of criticism only implies an incapability of accepting the different choices of others simply because they may not share the same views on any particular form of entertainment.


In Short, you're not my daddy so i'm gonna watch DragonBall SUPER all i wanna & am gonna like & praise it all i wanna.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power.

And the former represents Super as a whole, not the latter.

If 2nd & 3rd rate characters in SUPER has nothing to offer beyond that of their 2nd & 3rd rate DragonBall Z counterparts, then what would be the point in introducing for such events as participation in the tournament of power.
More than likely 2nd & 3rd rate characters in DragonBall SUPER would remain or end up less used as they were in DragonBall Z.

So PowerScaling applied increased the chances of usefulness of 2nd & 3rd rate characters such as Master Roshi.
Without some kind of increase, whether it be purely power or skilled technique, the resulting scaling was a good thing.

That just shows a lack of creativity with the formula. If you want to keep previously overshadowed characters relevant, then why not either introduce a new aspect of the power system for them to monopolise on (something that should have been done when God Ki was introduced as a new thing, only for it to be reduced to the same level of utility as regular Ki) or offer new opportunities for the characters that work within the logic followed by the series (Elder Kaioshin ritual, God Ki training, etc.). Having them get far stronger than any character of the previous series just because they trained really, really hard without switching their method up or anything of the sort is bad power inflation.

Bleach & Naruto doesn't rely solely on power inflation.

And when they don't, it's through overly broken, contrived abilities without any semblance of logic. Maybe it was different for Naruto when they actually relied on tactics and deception in the early arcs, but not so when the powers of the series fully revolved around magical eye techniques and Bijuus.

You believe GT is any better when it comes to writing, has more character depth, then good for you.
But don't get upset because SUPER has a following.

So, you're admitting that bandwagoning on the most recent trend is a major source in your enjoyment of a series?

I view it as a representation of divine ki, how small the mortal existence was in comparison to their place in the universe, where mortals stand in the presence of greater deities, Gods Of Destruction, Angels, etc.
All of which could easily destroy the universe & not even Goku at his mortal best could do anything to stop it.

By the next arc, it's practically treat no differently as regular Ki beyond the gimmick of only Gods sensing it, thereby losing any sort of allure it had.

So SuperSaiyan God gave them a chance by placing them on a new level.

Considering the kind of gains Piccolo, Gohan and #17 made without a God form, Super Saiyan God's "themes" mean nothing when what it represents is entirely just what the plot demands.

It's that curiosity in not knowing how many layers Jiren has that i find interesting.

And the answer is 0.

That's the difference between 12 episodes & 129+.

Length has little to do with character development/fleshing out if the writers don't use their time wisely. I can safely say I've seen series featuring far better character development in a short span of episodes than for those in the entirety of Super.

As i said i don't really care what your idea of what's good or bad is, i'm not watching SUPER for you or anyone else.

Don't get so high on some sense of inflated self worth that you think you know better than anyone else on what justifies as enjoyable entertainment when it comes to the preferences of others.

You don't define the general guideline as to what should & shouldn't be watched. That type of criticism only implies an incapability of accepting the different choices of others simply because they may not share the same views on any particular form of entertainment.

Let me ask you this, what would you say if someone were to say with full seriousness they considered a child's scribbles objectively a better work of art than the Mona Lisa, because they enjoyed it more and it was more to their preference?

This isn't an allegory to Super and GT, don't get me wrong, since anyone claiming GT is some work of high art is clearly deluded. It's simply an allegory to the flaw of relativism.

In Short, you're not my daddy so i'm gonna watch DragonBall SUPER all i wanna & am gonna like & praise it all i wanna.

What a mature way to end things...

 

[VampireWicked]

Let me ask you this, what would you say if someone were to say with full seriousness they considered a child's scribbles objectively a better work of art than the Mona Lisa, because they enjoyed it more and it was more to their preference?

This isn't an allegory to Super and GT, don't get me wrong, since anyone claiming GT is some work of high art is clearly deluded. It's simply an allegory to the flaw of relativism.

See i'm not going to address any of your previous statements or comments above this one because i've already wasted too much time on this in the past two nights.

Your ending comments, that's where the real issue is.

It's not a matter of you not liking my choice, not a matter of you liking DragonBall GT over SUPER. Don't Care.

The issue i have is when you insult, question my intelligence, question my tastes, question my preference, while coming off as this pretentious wanna be all & end all critic among critics who's smug authoritative attitude on everything good, bad, & ugly when it comes to the construction of any fictional universe & all written dialog, just oozes as if it's someone who can't handle opinions different then their own.

Dude if not, then you should never ever read any reviews ever again.

Seriously at best you do nothing but inspire me to prefer DragonBall SUPER that much more over GT.
At worst you've waste my time with your annoying smug attitude.
I have absolutely no problem with a conversation asking why i prefer one over another, & even furthering the discussion in an attempt at persuading me to see things in a different way.

However when you tell me my choice is pure trash & i don't know any better because that's the type of person i am, then i see there's nothing you have to offer me in the way of a decent conversation.

What a mature way to end things...

Because that's what smug self-righteous attitudes get.
The mature response they deserve.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Because that's what smug self-righteous attitudes get.
The mature response they deserve.

dawg