EoZ Goku proves Gotenks is Gag

[Goku9001]

I'm talking about the original manga only. I've no interest in speaking about Super which is just in a different vibe from the original story, portrays characters differently, with their personalities off, hasn't tried to keep itself consistent with the EoZ... I see the EoZ attached to the OG manga only, and that's the context I'm discussing things. I can't stop anyone from using Super if they want to back up their manga feelings for Goku being the strongest EoZ, but as far as the manga goes, there's no straight implication for it. At all.

I am talking strictly the original manga. What is the difference between the anime and manga? In the manga, we are blatantly told that Goku is leaving his family and friends so he can enjoy a good fight with Uub. Gotenks and Gohan are present and yet Goku bets everything on Uub so that he'd have the fight that he's always wanted. It's heavily implied that Goku had surpassed everyone and that there was nothing left for him until he fought Uub.

 

[SIAD]

I wouldn't have any problem with having Goku and Vegeta as the strongest in EoZ, since I have nerfed the SSJ multipliers for Gotenks, but everything seems to indicate that only Goku surpassed Gohan in BoGT, even though 5 years passed between EoZ and DBGT. Also the SSJ multipliers are nerfed in DBGT and in no way, Goku SSJ3 (EoZ) > Goku SSJ3 (BoGT).

I have Goku and Vegeta with nerfed multipliers from EoZ.

EoZ fits much better as before DBGT, than a continuation of DBS.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah GT definitely interprets it the way @Goku9001 does

 

[ahill1]

I am talking strictly the original manga. What is the difference between the anime and manga? In the manga, we are blatantly told that Goku is leaving his family and friends so he can enjoy a good fight with Uub. Gotenks and Gohan are present and yet Goku bets everything on Uub so that he'd have the fight that he's always wanted. It's heavily implied that Goku had surpassed everyone and that there was nothing left for him until he fought Uub.

That's not implication for it. Again, Gohan became a scholar... Goku knows he has no time and the will to train with him. Neither does Goten and Trunks. It seems Goku was enjoying taking the master role to release the amazing potential of a talented kid (kinda like many masters did to him earlier in his life, kind of a payback) and have a fun fight when they are at their best, which can be fun and rewarding whether he is the strongest or not.

 

[Dagon]

My new experimental numbers:

Multipliers:

SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
Golden Great Ape: 4000
SSJ4: 40,000
SSJG(non-ritual): 800
SSJB: 40,000


Scaling:

Gotenks RoSaT: 3-6x
Base Goku/Vegeta EoZ = Approximately Good Buu/Fat Buu level

Go:

Cell Games Saga:

SSJ2 Gohan: 200
Super Perfect Cell: 225

Babidi Saga:

Gohan: 1
~SSJ: 50
~SSJ2: 100

Dabura: 47

Goku: 2.5
~SSJ: 125
~SSJ2: 250

Vegeta: 1.75
~SSJ: 87.5
~SSJ2: 175
~Majin Vegeta SSJ2: 250

Fat Buu:
~Initial: 45
~Power-Up 1: 300
~Power-Up 2: 500

Future Timeline Babidi Saga(DBZ: Kakarot, DBS manga):

F. Trunks(Z Sword): 3.6
~SSJ: 180
~SSJ w/Z-Sword(effectiveness): 202.5
~SSJ2: 360

Future Dabura: 300

Majin Buu Saga(main timeline):

Fat Buu: 750

SSJ3 Goku: 1,000

Fusion Saga:

Gotenks(Lowball/manga): 27.92-55.83
~SSJ: 1,395.83-2,791.667

Gotenks(Highball/Anime): 55.83-111.667
~SSJ: 2,791.667-5,583.33

Grey Buu: 450
~Anime(DBox info): ~750

Innocent Buu: 330
~Anime: 550

Gotenks(post-RoSaT): 167.5-335
~SSJ: 8,375-16,750
~SSJ3: 67,000-134,000

Super Buu:
~Suppressed: 70,000-140,000
~Full Power: 67,000-134,000

Z Sword Gohan:
~Base: 3.6
~SSJ: 180
~Ultimate: 100,000-200,000

Buutenks: 134,000+ - 268,000+

Buuiccolo: 67,001-134,001

Buuhan: 167,001-334,001

Vegetto: 187,000-375,000
~SSJ: 9,350,000-18,750,000

End of Z:

Goku: 350-600
~SSJ: 17,500-30,000
~SSJ2: 35,000-60,000
~SSJ3: 140,000-240,000


Surprising consistency with pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks' lowball ending up less than 50% stronger than SSJ3 Goku, in line with Goku's claim that Gotenks will be stronger than himself. Could pump up EoZ Goku further like making post-Kid Buu saga SSJ3 Goku = Buuhan like in V-Jump. This way Gohan's left behind far enough that Uub would be a more appealing option for the fight Goku wants.

Now the real question is how to make a fusion formula that can work with this.

 

[Goku9001]

That's not implication for it. Again, Gohan became a scholar... Goku knows he has no time and the will to train with him. Neither does Goten and Trunks. It seems Goku was enjoying taking the master role to release the amazing potential of a talented kid (kinda like many masters did to him earlier in his life, kind of a payback) and have a fun fight when they are at their best, which can be fun and rewarding whether he is the strongest or not.

It's patently stated in the closing scene when Goku takes off. Training Uub was all about giving Goku a good fight rather than merely just training him which would imply that Uub was stronger than Gohan and Gotenks if Goku was more excited to fight him over those two. Even if Gohan was a scholar, where is the implication that he had grown weaker or had been slacking off? The Buu Saga was very explicit on Gohan slacking off and Toriyama went out of his way to make it clear that Goten had been slacking off.

 

[ahill1]

It's patently stated in the closing scene when Goku takes off. Training Uub was all about giving Goku a good fight rather than merely just training him which would imply that Uub was stronger than Gohan and Gotenks if Goku was more excited to fight him over those two. Even if Gohan was a scholar, where is the implication that he had grown weaker or had been slacking off? The Buu Saga was very explicit on Gohan slacking off and Toriyama went out of his way to make it clear that Goten had been slacking off.

That's no implication of it. That's implication that Goku wants to fight Oob when Oob is at his best. There's no comparison to Gohan. Did you expect Goku to be excited to fight Gohan when Gohan isn't even a fighter? If Gohan were stronger, it'd be justifable too... Goku knows he can't catch up to Gohan and wants to fight Oob when he's developed, when he knew he couldn't compete with Gohan were him to want to fight his dad, which wasn't his intention at the time as he prioritized other things. Goku even said in the RoSaT he wants Gohan to be stronger than him. He has no problems with his kids surpassing him. You're just forcing and squeezing out implications from nowhere...

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah GT definitely has Goku > Gohan. The theory about Goku getting stronger up to M2 is a notable effort to patch up the terrible scaling, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Like, Toei goes out of their way to wank Goku.

Now the real question is how to make a fusion formula that can work with this.

There’s no fusion formula. Sometimes SSJ3 is worlds below SSJG, sometimes base fusion is above SSJG.

And we can’t even say it’s “tens of times strongest form” because Base Vegetto/Gogeta don’t seem that powerful in DBS. It’s also an incredible mess to scale the ToP with Vegetto/Gogeta so strong.

 

[Dagon]

There’s no fusion formula.

What am I going to tell my discord posse now?!

 

[Goku9001]

That's no implication of it. That's implication that Goku wants to fight Oob when Oob is at his best. There's no comparison to Gohan. Did you expect Goku to be excited to fight Gohan when Gohan isn't even a fighter? If Gohan were stronger, it'd be justifable too... Goku knows he can't catch up to Gohan and wants to fight Oob when he's developed, when he knew he couldn't compete with Gohan were him to want to fight his dad, which wasn't his intention at the time as he prioritized other things. Goku even said in the RoSaT he wants Gohan to be stronger than him. He has no problems with his kids surpassing him. You're just forcing and squeezing out implications from nowhere...

Piccolo says that Goku hasn't been this way in a long time. The implication is that Gohan and Gotenks can't create that feeling but Uub's potential can. That's what's exciting about it. If Goku believed Uub couldn't surpass Gohan and Gotenks, then there would have been nothing left for Goku since what he wanted the most was a good fight, something Goku apparently hasn't had in a long time as per Piccolo. Kind of strange if Gohan and Gotenks could fight Goku whenever he wanted.

 

[SIAD]

Piccolo says that Goku hasn't been this way in a long time. The implication is that Gohan and Gotenks can't create that feeling but Uub's potential can. That's what's exciting about it. If Goku believed Uub couldn't surpass Gohan and Gotenks, then there would have been nothing left for Goku since what he wanted the most was a good fight, something Goku apparently hasn't had in a long time as per Piccolo. Kind of strange if Gohan and Gotenks could fight Goku whenever he wanted.

Wouldn't that mean that Goku Base and Oob (Enraged) would be >>> Gohan and Gotenks in EoZ?

 

[Goku9001]

Wouldn't that mean that Goku Base and Oob (Enraged) would be >>> Gohan and Gotenks in EoZ?

Not necessarily. Goku's outlook about Uub is for the future. He's looking forward to fighting him once he masters his power. Once Uub masters his powers, he should be stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.

 

[SIAD]

Not necessarily. Goku's outlook about Uub is for the future. He's looking forward to fighting him once he masters his power. Once Uub masters his powers, he should be stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.

So: Redjic > Goku Base (BoGT) = Vegeta Base (BoGT) = Oob (BoGT) >>> Ultimate Gohan?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What am I going to tell my discord posse now?!

I am your discord posse

 

[SIAD]

If it weren't for DBGT, I would have absolutely no problem with having Goku and Vegeta much stronger than Ultimate Gohan in EoZ, since I simply use nerfed multipliers for Gotenks and Saiyans in DBGT.

 

[FeatsofPower]

If it weren't for DBGT, I would have absolutely no problem with having Goku and Vegeta much stronger than Ultimate Gohan in EoZ, since I simply use nerfed multipliers for Gotenks and Saiyans in DBGT.

Where is Gohan > Vegeta implied in GT?

Baby took over Vegeta not Gohan.

 

[SIAD]

Where is Gohan > Vegeta implied in GT?

Baby took over Vegeta not Gohan.

The Z Fighters got a lot stronger between BoGT and Arc Baby.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The Z Fighters got a lot stronger between BoGT and Arc Baby.

Where is it implied Gohan > Vegeta in BoGT?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’d say BoGT Vegeta > Gohan. He didn’t do any special training so he should’ve always been stronger than Gohan.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I’d say BoGT Vegeta > Gohan. He didn’t do any special training so he should’ve always been stronger than Gohan.

Vegeta most likely surpassed him EoZ. But what evidence suggests Gohan > Vegeta in GT ever?