Finger-flick feat

[Dagon]

@Power Level Guy Did you mean this?

 

[Power Level Guy]

@Dagon

Yep

 

[GSM123]

Against full power old Piccolo? I don't think I'm seeing it.

Young Piccolo. Old destroyed Goku without going FP.

Edit: Nvm you already found it lol

 

[Dagon]

@Dagon

Yep

Tenshinhan says it's a "light swing". It's not a full effort swing clearly. I think you're putting too much stock into it. Piccolo doesn't even look like he's trying hard.

You thought this would mean that Piccolo can't wind chop Goku with that power gap, but that would be assuming Piccolo used full effort. He's clearly not, so he might even be able to knock Goku down if he tried his hardest. I think you need to rethink it.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Tenshinhan says it's a "light swing". It's not a full effort swing clearly. I think you're putting too much stock into it. Piccolo doesn't even look like he's trying hard.

What's it look like if he puts his full effort into it?

 

[Dagon]

What's it look like if he puts his full effort into it?

The whole "stern looking grimace" kind of face. Like this:

 

[Power Level Guy]

The whole "stern looking grimace" kind of face. Like this:

Lol, I know what using full effort looks like. Here's the questions to wrestle with...

1. If ol "stern face" tried to wind chop Goku as hard as he could, what would happen?

2. What percentage of effort would you say Piccolo is using with his light swing? What percentage of effort is Jackie using for his?

 

[ahill]

Well his leverages make him an insane submission artist. He had already submitted quite a few legends by this point. Those arms are legit a cheat code. He's subbed Machida, Henderson, and Vitor Belfort.

Yes, but Machida had been rocked from a huge elbow from a TD before, and had been rocked even more from a punch in which JJ feinted a left kick and caught him with a straight left dropping him. Belfort had been bloodied already and pretty weakened. Henderson was a few years after the Gustafsson match. JJ said that after almost getting submitted by Belfort, that by then he started training jiujitsu more actively. The Gus fight was 1 year after the Belfort fight. He got better in jiujitsu with time and now he's a master on it. Of course, he had always good submission skills. Earlier in his career he subbed Ryan Badder with a twisting choke. But he was on top. We've never seen him working on submissions and defense when on bottom... As apart from Gus, and DC, no one tried to take JJ down. Not even DC tried taking JJ down in their second fight as his takedown defense is perhaps as good as it can be, JJ can't be taken down pretty much... Gus likely took him down exploring the surprising factor, as JJ didn't expect that. Jon Jones set a TD that seemed like the one he applied for Miocic. Feinting an oblique kick before, tho Gus anticipated that and took him down, which caught JJ by surprise.

Still tho, I guess you're right. Gus took him down very briefly in the next round, but JJ kinda rolled with the takedown and used that to get Gus back instead, inverting position, but Gus ran away and it was funny because JJ literally chased him in the octagon with Gus briefly running away circling the cage from Jones lol. But it's likely that JJ explored the fact that he knew that Gus would set up that same takedown feinting being taken down so he could roll while falling and get Gus' back, which is likely. The first takedown, JJ was in a defensive position as it was a more legit surprising executed one. The second it seems like JJ baited Gus into the same TD to roll with it before falling so he could take Gus back, but Gus kept his balance and wasn't dragged to the ground. He had to run away with JJ chasing him like a dog tho lol. Btw, epic fight. JJ was bleeding intensely in his eyes before the 5th round and his coaches said they wanted to stop the fight before the 5th round since JJ's eyes could be compromised forever. But it was 2-2 and JJ literally begged them not to stop, saying he may lose an eye but he didn't want to lose the fight, saying he'd give an eye to win that fight... And he won the 5th round in the best fight ever maybe. Jones has done bad actions outside the octagon, no denying that, but his competitiveness and willingness to win, his sacrifice, and heart like no one else, all while being severely underpaid compared to guys who fought wayyy less like McGregor or Topuria (who has made more $ than JJ in the UFC in his short career which is crazy) makes me a fan, even tho he's flawed outside of the fighting business. It seems he strives to be a role model and have the approval of fans (which to him means a lot, he said his favourite moment was stopping a thief helping the police before the Shogun fight, saying that he felt helpful and a superhero), but he can't scape his demons... I don't think he's abad person as in, trying to be, but he has conflicted personalities ...

Years of brain damage, several concussions throughout his career, pressure , all contributes that that tho, not an excuse, but he hasn't had it easy either.

 

[Power Level Guy]

We've never seen him working on submissions and defense when on bottom...

Well, that's the funny thing when you are an elite wrestler. People can't get you down and even when they do, they typically can't hold you down. Getting back up is part of wrestling, you don't necessarily just become a guard player when it's not in your DNA to be on your back. Imagine how devastating Jon could be with those elbows? Bro might be more dangerous off his back then anyone.

The first takedown, JJ was in a defensive position as it was a more legit surprising executed one.

Yeah, you have to remember there are opportunistic takedown opportunities and then there is just being a superior wrestler. If your opponent makes a legit mistake, it's easy to take them down. When they are on guard and aren't open for it, it can be nearly impossible. Gus was smart to threaten it while it was there as it opens up his striking game more. Gus was a very good opportunistic takedown artist while not being a traditional wrestler. His training with Phil Davis no doubt worked wonders.

Years of brain damage, several concussions throughout his career, pressure , all contributes that that tho, not an excuse, but he hasn't had it easy either.

Jon is a deeply troubled person. He has a lot of issues. Which is to be expected. You don't become the greatest cage fighter of all time and also end up being one of the more stable people. Cage fighters have lots and lots of issues. To be a great fighter in general, you must have some serious trauma or issues, it's not 100% thing of course, but more times than not, these fighters have tremendous issues. It's not easy to wake up and get punched in the face when you are happy with your life.

 

[ahill]

Well, that's the funny thing when you are an elite wrestler. People can't get you down and even when they do, they typically can't hold you down. Getting back up is part of wrestling, you don't necessarily just become a guard player when it's not in your DNA to be on your back. Imagine how devastating Jon could be with those elbows? Bro might be more dangerous off his back then anyone.


Yeah, you have to remember there are opportunistic takedown opportunities and then there is just being a superior wrestler. If your opponent makes a legit mistake, it's easy to take them down. When they are on guard and aren't open for it, it can be nearly impossible. Gus was smart to threaten it while it was there as it opens up his striking game more. Gus was a very good opportunistic takedown artist while not being a traditional wrestler. His training with Phil Davis no doubt worked wonders.


Jon is a deeply troubled person. He has a lot of issues. Which is to be expected. You don't become the greatest cage fighter of all time and also end up being one of the more stable people. Cage fighters have lots and lots of issues. To be a great fighter in general, you must have some serious trauma or issues, it's not 100% thing of course, but more times than not, these fighters have tremendous issues. It's not easy to wake up and get punched in the face when you are happy with your life.

Look at Reyes analysing JJ's as a person. That was this year. He was and still is obsessed with JJ

It's a one minute short video. What you think?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Wow, that's pretty hardcore. But yeah, I don't like to make superheroes out of these guys. These are flawed individuals with amazing skills. But on another note, these types of videos remind me of just how unathletic MMA fighters are. Jon with all that size couldn't make it anywhere in football. Jon has always talked about how his brothers could beat him up and his brothers also would say they'd whoop Jon's ass. He was the runt indeed.

Just imagine if we got real athletes in this sport how much the sport could evolve? Imagine a LeBron who had the right fighter mentality and was trained his whole life? That could legit be an unbeatable human being in my book. I love to speculate on how much better combat sports could be if they had a much larger pool of athletes to choose from.

And some of those football guys are just barbarically strong. There's guys who LeBron is just going to have trouble with, which is absurd. LeBron literally dwarfs Jon and is just an athlete 10x better than our GOAT.

It's just amazing to think about how far MMA has come and yet, how much more it leaves on the table in terms of potential.

 

[ahill]

Wow, that's pretty hardcore. But yeah, I don't like to make superheroes out of these guys. These are flawed individuals with amazing skills. But on another note, these types of videos remind me of just how unathletic MMA fighters are. Jon with all that size couldn't make it anywhere in football. Jon has always talked about how his brothers could beat him up and his brothers also would say they'd whoop Jon's ass. He was the runt indeed.

Just imagine if we got real athletes in this sport how much the sport could evolve? Imagine a LeBron who had the right fighter mentality and was trained his whole life? That could legit be an unbeatable human being in my book. I love to speculate on how much better combat sports could be if they had a much larger pool of athletes to choose from.

And some of those football guys are just barbarically strong. There's guys who LeBron is just going to have trouble with, which is absurd. LeBron literally dwarfs Jon and is just an athlete 10x better than our GOAT.

It's just amazing to think about how far MMA has come and yet, how much more it leaves on the table in terms of potential.

Well, Reyes was an athlete and he lost to JJ, Jiri, Jan... JJ had a bad day and still best him, who's very athletic. Other guys destroyed him and Jiri Prochazka said he considers JJ not only the goat but his main inspiration. Athlete # good at mma. That thing about them bearing JJ is more a light hearted thing. His older brother recently said they'd play when little but inna fight if serious he wouldn't even touch JJ. Shakil that huge basketball guy said he's got headed when ppl touch him and he got hit with a compliment slap in the back but turned pissed since that was strong... But he said he saw it was JJ and was like "oh JJ", saying later "damn, I almost screwed up if I punched instinctively I'd fear for my life *laughs* " ... Miocic was also an athletic football player in the past, for example. Many guys had athletic backgrounds. JJ wasn't good at football, but he's athletic and for mma he uses his athleticism better than anyone else. LeBron wouldn't be as good as JJ if he tried fighting. LeBron had an interview in which he said he tried training boxing but he said he sucked, he didn't have the timing and skills for combat sports...

 

[Power Level Guy]

Well, Reyes was an athlete

Reyes was not an elite athlete though. I'm talking cream of the crop. Imagine if all of the NFL and NBA abandoned their sports and had trained their entire lives? If that's the case, I don't think Jon is even a top 10 guy.

Athlete # good at mma.

Agreed, an athlete doesn't necessitate being a great fighter. A lot of athletes are not fighters at all. That's specifically why I referenced the pool of fighters and brought up if LeBron had the right mindset and all that. We witnessed what happened to Greg Hardy. But the fact Greg Hardy was even getting fights on the main card and fighting top 10 guys with minimal training is absurd and shows just how low level this sport is at HW.

Miocic was also an athletic football player in the past, for example.

Yeah, but he never made it very far. Keep in mind I'm speaking about the elite of the elite. And dozens upon dozens of them. Miocic is a solid athlete for MMA, but in NBA and NFL, he's a bottom tier athlete. There's levels to this.

JJ wasn't good at football, but he's athletic and for mma he uses his athleticism better than anyone else.

Not only football but the boy can't dunk! Lol, wait to you look into that. Jon is not a good athlete, he's still the GOAT, but in terms of genetic ability, he's nowhere near human peak.

Remember, the NFL has dozens and dozens of guys with a similar profile and ability to Brock Lesnar lol. The guy who took the HW division by storm with next to no experience and ran through a bunch of elite guys like it was nothing.

It's just a different world. In a league where there are 20-50 guys with Brock Lesnar like athleticism, guys like Jon Jones don't crack the top 100.

 

[Power Level Guy]

LeBron wouldn't be as good as JJ if he tried fighting. LeBron had an interview in which he said he tried training boxing but he said he sucked, he didn't have the timing and skills for combat sports...

Knowing what we know of LeBron, can't say that's much of a surprise. But remember, we are talking about genetic potential here as well as assuming someone who has the grit for it.

 

[ahill]

Reyes was not an elite athlete though. I'm talking cream of the crop. Imagine if all of the NFL and NBA abandoned their sports and had trained their entire lives? If that's the case, I don't think Jon is even a top 10 guy.


Agreed, an athlete doesn't necessitate being a great fighter. A lot of athletes are not fighters at all. That's specifically why I referenced the pool of fighters and brought up if LeBron had the right mindset and all that. We witnessed what happened to Greg Hardy. But the fact Greg Hardy was even getting fights on the main card and fighting top 10 guys with minimal training is absurd and shows just how low level this sport is at HW.


Yeah, but he never made it very far. Keep in mind I'm speaking about the elite of the elite. And dozens upon dozens of them. Miocic is a solid athlete for MMA, but in NBA and NFL, he's a bottom tier athlete. There's levels to this.


Not only football but the boy can't dunk! Lol, wait to you look into that. Jon is not a good athlete, he's still the GOAT, but in terms of genetic ability, he's nowhere near human peak.

Remember, the NFL has dozens and dozens of guys with a similar profile and ability to Brock Lesnar lol. The guy who took the HW division by storm with next to no experience and ran through a bunch of elite guys like it was nothing.

It's just a different world. In a league where there are 20-50 guys with Brock Lesnar like athleticism, guys like Jon Jones don't crack the top 100.

Well, but those are different athletic attributes. Dunking or having ability with a ball is a specific skill. MMA brings a specific skill of athleticism. Jones isn't running a marathon well vs pro runners. He'd Hass earlier. But that doesn't mean his stamina is worse, it's just worse for a specific thing. MMA works athleticism centered to fighting. He is a good athlete, but not the best athlete, but one of the best combat athletes. MMA requires a different application of one's athleticism. He isn't training to jump very high, or to outrun someone in speed. Fighting is different. A LeBron James has an athletic ability that revolves around Basketball. MMA skills, timing, reaction, that isn't tied to sports that require elite athleticism, that's tied to athleticism applied to fighting

 

[Power Level Guy]

Regardless of sport, we have the general means of assessing athleticism.

No one ever confuses who is the better athlete when they talk about LeBron or some marathon runner.

And lol bro you keep reverting to the same point I’ve explained to you. Let me try one more time.

Being an athlete doesn’t mean you can automatically cross over. Remember how I shared the Greg Hardy problem? Greg is a super athlete. He wasn’t able to go far.

But also on the other hand, imagine these athletes well trained from kids and the weeding out process where only the toughest survived.

All of our current champs wouldn’t survive a minute with those guys.

If the HW division has 20 guys who are well trained fighters who are all Brock level athletic, it’s a wrap.

These MMA guys are great fighters for their generation no doubt. But the idea they’ve maxed out human potential is absurd. 90% of these guys are only fighting because they couldn’t hack it in another sport. They simply didn’t have the basic athleticism to compete. So the overall level is very low in that regard.

Imagine better trained Yoel Romeros flooding your divisions. That’s a scary world.

Remember, Chandler Jones is thinking if he has half the training Jon had, he’d smash him.

 

[Dagon]

Lol, I know what using full effort looks like. Here's the questions to wrestle with...

1. If ol "stern face" tried to wind chop Goku as hard as he could, what would happen?

2. What percentage of effort would you say Piccolo is using with his light swing? What percentage of effort is Jackie using for his?

1. It's entirely possible a full effort wind chop from Piccolo could knock Goku down.

2. Should be more than his old body power, so based on power levels it may be equivalent to about 70-80% of young full power Piccolo.

Yamcha doesn't seem to have an official power level in the first tournament saga. He was close to Goku's power level of 10 before, so it really could be anything as long as it's firmly below Roshi. Given Roshi's wind chop feat, Roshi could be using 20% or 80% effort and it could be equally valid. Yamcha is probably fodder in the first tournament.

 

[Power Level Guy]

1. It's entirely possible a full effort wind chop from Piccolo could knock Goku down.

I agree.

2. Should be more than his old body power, so based on power levels it may be equivalent to about 70-80% of young full power Piccolo.

Seems fair enough. Do you agree Piccolo was initially at 40% even when his youth was restored?

Yamcha doesn't seem to have an official power level in the first tournament saga. He was close to Goku's power level of 10 before, so it really could be anything as long as it's firmly below Roshi. Given Roshi's wind chop feat, Roshi could be using 20% or 80% effort and it could be equally valid. Yamcha is probably fodder in the first tournament.

Yes. So you’d agree a 2.5x advantage or so is probably required to wind chop?

 

[Dagon]

I agree.




Seems fair enough. Do you agree Piccolo was initially at 40% even when his youth was restored?



Yes. So you’d agree a 2.5x advantage or so is probably required to wind chop?

I think it could be closer to 2x, maybe less. DB has some good feats at small gaps.

I think the Ming Piccolo feat is probably the smallest gap wind chop feat. Others with successful chops could be anywhere from 2x to 10x and we can't really know.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think it could be closer to 2x, maybe less. DB has some good feats at small gaps.

So Piccolo can easily send Goku flying with a wind chop? He just chose not to?

I think the Ming Piccolo feat is probably the smallest gap wind chop feat. Others with successful chops could be anywhere from 2x to 10x and we can't really know.

How large is Jackie’s successful wind chop attack on Yamcha?