Freezer 50% > Semi Perfect Cell.

[Pocket-Gog~]

This proves it. It's finally been proven that Freeza > Semi Perfect Cell.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Too lazy to watch the video, but Ginger Town Imperfect Cell is > 100% Freeza.

 

[Void]

Gog is freezamite....

 

[Diamond Ryan]

KK x20 Goku > SSj Goku is still one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on DB forums.

 

[Pyro]

KK x20 Goku > SSj Goku is still one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on DB forums.

Kaio-ken x60 is stronger than Super Saiyan.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku wants to fight Freeza at full power.

Spoiler

Yet, somehow this ''Full Power'' Freeza is still weaker than 50% Freeza. :molest

 

[Papasmurf]

KK x20 Goku > SSj Goku is still one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on DB forums.

Kaio-ken x60 is stronger than Super Saiyan.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

He was joking

 

[Captain Cadaver]

This version of Freeza probably did a day's worth of training beforehand, thus explaining his gainz.

 

[freezamite]

KK x20 Goku > SSj Goku is still one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on DB forums.

The worst thing about this is that if we were to discuss it based on what's said on the manga, in 5 messages you would:
1. Contradict yourself.
2. Say that Toriyama didn't know what he was doing.
3. Contradict what's said in the manga (dozens of times).
4. Pretend that DB can't be analysed through it's internal rules and the stated facts.
5. Insult.

I mean, that's so absurd, that besides every single fact from the manga pointing towards this idea it was directly confirmed by nothing less than Akira Toriyama. Good luck proving the author of the series and the manga wrong lol

 

[ahill1]

KK x20 Goku > SSj Goku is still one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on DB forums.

The worst thing about this is that if we were to discuss it based on what's said on the manga, in 5 messages you would:
1. Contradict yourself.
2. Say that Toriyama didn't know what he was doing.
3. Contradict what's said in the manga (dozens of times).
4. Pretend that DB can't be analysed through it's internal rules and the stated facts.
5. Insult.

I mean, that's so absurd, that besides every single fact from the manga pointing towards this idea it was directly confirmed by nothing less than Akira Toriyama. Good luck proving the author of the series and the manga wrong lol

You said Goku being 300k in the Boo saga works well with his tons feats in the Boo saga, right? With what you are comparing his tons feats? The 100G that was accomplished by 90k Goku?

 

[freezamite]

KK x20 Goku > SSj Goku is still one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on DB forums.

The worst thing about this is that if we were to discuss it based on what's said on the manga, in 5 messages you would:
1. Contradict yourself.
2. Say that Toriyama didn't know what he was doing.
3. Contradict what's said in the manga (dozens of times).
4. Pretend that DB can't be analysed through it's internal rules and the stated facts.
5. Insult.

I mean, that's so absurd, that besides every single fact from the manga pointing towards this idea it was directly confirmed by nothing less than Akira Toriyama. Good luck proving the author of the series and the manga wrong lol

You said Goku being 300k in the Boo saga works well with his tons feats in the Boo saga, right? With what you are comparing his tons feats? The 100G that was accomplished by 90k Goku?

Yes, since the saiyan saga (when the units of power and the gravities are introduced) the weithing feats are consistent. The only outliers I can think of are from the pre-saiyan saga, where power wasn't the focus of the series to such a high degree.

 

[ahill1]

The worst thing about this is that if we were to discuss it based on what's said on the manga, in 5 messages you would:
1. Contradict yourself.
2. Say that Toriyama didn't know what he was doing.
3. Contradict what's said in the manga (dozens of times).
4. Pretend that DB can't be analysed through it's internal rules and the stated facts.
5. Insult.

I mean, that's so absurd, that besides every single fact from the manga pointing towards this idea it was directly confirmed by nothing less than Akira Toriyama. Good luck proving the author of the series and the manga wrong lol

You said Goku being 300k in the Boo saga works well with his tons feats in the Boo saga, right? With what you are comparing his tons feats? The 100G that was accomplished by 90k Goku?

Yes, since the saiyan saga (when the units of power and the gravities are introduced) the weithing feats are consistent. The only outliers I can think of are from the pre-saiyan saga, where power wasn't the focus of the series to such a high degree.

Huh, so you won't consider the 23rd Budokai, where my argument lies on huh?

 

[freezamite]

You said Goku being 300k in the Boo saga works well with his tons feats in the Boo saga, right? With what you are comparing his tons feats? The 100G that was accomplished by 90k Goku?

Yes, since the saiyan saga (when the units of power and the gravities are introduced) the weithing feats are consistent. The only outliers I can think of are from the pre-saiyan saga, where power wasn't the focus of the series to such a high degree.

Huh, so you won't consider the 23rd Budokai, where my argument lies on huh?

It's like considering Goku's mountaing moving feat to counter his feat with the 100kg vest of the 23rd Budokay or him not being able to even properly move at 10 Gs. Or trying to use Mutenroshi Moon Blast kamehame to justify feats from post-saiyan saga.
We all know DB was an improvised manga and some aspects of it weren't perfect because of that, but of course that doesn't mean there was no logic behind it.
Even within the saiyan saga, if you analyse the gravities you'll see some glaring problems. So a normal human being can resist a 1G gravity while Goku and his 400+ units couldn't? Well, but that's what's drawn, and once you accept that gravities start making sense from what Toriyama said in the saiyan saga onwards, because that's when he firstly considered the gravity/weight as a way to measure power (and in fact, that's when the series focused on power levels), the sooner you'll understand the idea he had on mind.

Oh and come on, don't pretend this is something you don't know. It's like the ki sensing abilities of the z-warriors, which were mostly developed in the saiyan saga. Until then, they could barely feel presences and not even change their Ki in the usual way, but Toriyama felt that would be a good idea and integrated it in the story as if it had been there since the beginning.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

.

 

[ahill1]

Well Roshi destroying the moon was kind of an outlier, considering the Kikoho was made up to be way more powerful than the KMHMH yet its power destruction was limited by an arena --> way less impressive than a fucking moon. But it doesn't mean we can't use feats from DB, it's still the same history. The history already had a "more serious feeling" post the 22nd Budokai, which was more the transition between a less serious history and a more serious one. I honestly think the "tons feats" were an outlier considering some of the feats already presented in the series. You can get more informations on this thread created by metal4ever (a pretty well informed debater, might I add):
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1874152-goku-only-lift-40-tons/

Some of the feats concerning gravity aren't even consistents, like Kid Trunks SSJ struggling in a 150x gravity despite 90,000 Goku mastering a 100x one, and Vegeta being confident in handling one with 3x its weight. Gohan from the Androids saga (who should be already way more powerful than Raditz) also does mention how he feels overwhelmed by a 10x gravity (while in the RoSaT), despite someone like Raditz probably not even feeling it. It's more or less the same concept as "lifting", "tons feats" and AT is known for not being confident with feats concerning one's power (Tao Pai Pai would be above Boo saga base Gohan according to speed feats), therefore I am a bit agnostic about using said feats to determine one's strength.

 

[ahill1]

Just like the early feats in DB weren't so consistent, I feel the same could be said for part 2.

 

[Future Warrior]

Yep. If AT has trouble creating a story without a lot of contradictions, I doubt he's consistent with lifting feats.

 

[freezamite]

Well Roshi destroying the moon was kind of an outlier, considering the Kikoho was made up to be way more powerful than the KMHMH yet its power destruction was limited by an arena --> way less impressive than a fucking moon. But it doesn't mean we can't use feats from DB, it's still the same history.

It just means that some feats may have been invalidated by what's said in ulterior sagas. You have to have in mind that DB not only was improvised, it also changed his tone and it started as a gag manga, so 100% coherency it's impossible under those circumstances.
But of course, we can draw comparisons and try to establish what Toriyama had on mind and what probably was an outlier due to the circumstances of the series.
For example, as you yourself admit the moon blasting KHH is an outlier. It's effects are far, far more impressive than what attacks described as stronger and performed by stronger fighters can do, but the story evolves considering those attacks stronger and even much stronger KHH aren't moon blasting, which means that it was Mutenroshi's KHH that was an outlier.

Pre-saiyan saga's fight were more plot-based, while post-saiyan saga fights were better and focused around power and other more grounded and stablished factors.

The history already had a "more serious feeling" post the 22nd Budokai, which was more the transition between a less serious history and a more serious one. I honestly think the "tons feats" were an outlier considering some of the feats already presented in the series. You can get more informations on this thread created by metal4ever (a pretty well informed debater, might I add):
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1874152-goku-only-lift-40-tons/

The problem with those posts is that they try to use real life physics to a fictional world. Yes, to throw a column at the speed Tao Pai Pai did would surely need more energy than to simply be able to move at 10G, but not in DB and that's what matters when discussing about DB.

Now, was the 40 tons feat of Goku an outlier? Yes if compared to every single feat from the series and if we analyse it with real world physics.
Not if we compare it with the other times Toriyama had associated a given weight/gravity with a given level of power. Since the saiyan saga Toriyama uses the gravity as a way to show progress, and he decides to start with 10Gs at a given power level.
From there onwards he is pretty consistent with it. So Goku masters the 10G with less than 8k units, and he masters the 100G with less than 90k as well.
The next feat is the 40 tons feat, that puts Goku at 300k more or less, which is coherent with what's said in the manga and even what Toriyama said about the SSJ's strength in an interview.

Toriyama only needs to be coherent with an idea he has previously introduced. I won't ask for pre-power levels DB to adhere to the same rules of post-power levels DB, because it's obvious that the series evolved a lot (as I've said, the series became power focused not only because power levels were given, but by how the fights evolved thematically. Pre power-levels fights were mostly about the plot while post-power level fights revolved more around power gaps and ki management -and in my opinion that's why they're better-).
That doesn't mean that you couldn't see new techniques in post-power level fights or that power wasn't a factor at all in pre-power level fights, but Toriyama surely changed his style and that has consequences.

Some of the feats concerning gravity aren't even consistents, like Kid Trunks SSJ struggling in a 150x gravity despite 90,000 Goku mastering a 100x one, and Vegeta being confident in handling one with 3x its weight.

SSJ Trunks is never shown struggling in a 150x gravity. He is struggling without the SSJ which can be debated if coherent or not (in my opinion, it was completely possible considering Trunks was born as a SSJ but he didn't train like Gohan did at his age) but with his SSJ the 150G are nothing to him.

Gohan from the Androids saga (who should be already way more powerful than Raditz) also does mention how he feels overwhelmed by a 10x gravity (while in the RoSaT), despite someone like Raditz probably not even feeling it.

The RoSAT conditions were overwhelming not only because of the gravity, but also because of the low concentration of oxygen or the extreme temperatures, which was what was brutal.
That being said, I don't know why you specifically bring Gohan in there, I mean, I don't recall him having any problems with the gravity of the room specifically. He had problems turning into a SSJ and he got exhausted while training that, but the 10x gravity was never stated to be a problem for him.

It's more or less the same concept as "lifting", "tons feats" and AT is known for not being confident with feats concerning one's power (Tao Pai Pai would be above Boo saga base Gohan according to speed feats), therefore I am a bit agnostic about using said feats to determine one's strength.

Well, I can understand that stance. But in the case of gravity/body weights, I see them being pretty consistent during the whole Saiyans/Namek/Cell/Bu (in the other instances where weight feats are shown) sagas, so I think that's not crazy to take that Bu saga feat into consideration as well.

 

[ahill1]

Well the "gag 'tone' " from Dragon Ball pretty much disappeared after the 22nd Budokai, whereas the series took a way more serious feeling, like I mentioned. The same way that the power levels weren't thought up before the Saiyans saga (so AT couldn't be entirely consistent with it) it was also out of AT's mind after the Boo saga, no? While the series always had power gaps statements of opponent x being slightly or way stronger than opponent y, AT wasn't probably thinking under a numerical standpoint anymore, the same way there are a lot of statements clearly painting a hierarchical in the 23rd Budokai, although AT wasn't with numbers in mind there, either. AT also introducced the 400 number for Goku in the Saiyan Saga, and 23rd Budokai Goku shouldn't be THAT much different, I guess. So considering Goku couldn't move in the Boo saga under a 40 tons weight and could move just fine in the Saiyan Saga under a 100 kg, then he couldn't be even as strong as 300k when doing the math. If we go by the fact that Toriyama keeps his numbers consistent with those lifting feats, then I think he'd also be taking into consideration that ~400 BP Goku can move just fine while wearing a 100kg wearing.

Oops, I meant base kid Trunks. Regarding Gohan, he states his body feels heavy in the room, which seems to be associated with the gravity there. The low oxygen and temperature would be related with other things, I guess. Yamcha also mentioned something like feeling uneasy with the gravity in Kaio's planet, despite being stronger than Raditz. AT just doesn't seem to put much thought into these kind of feats and neither does Toyotaro apparently (considering Trunks mastered the Z sword and still had problems against Dabra in SSJ).