Frost (Assault Form) vs Freeza (True Form; FnF Saga)

[Evil Vegeta]

Piccolo thought weakened Frost was still too strong and even asked him to hold-back. Knowing this, Frost is superior to Piccolo, who would demolish Namek Freeza without a second thought.

 

[freezamite]

Piccolo thought weakened Frost was still too strong and even asked him to hold-back. Knowing this, Frost is superior to Piccolo, who would demolish Namek Freeza without a second thought.

Not in my opinion. I have Piccolo at 6-8 million units max (and I'm being generous here) considering that he had between 3 and 4 million after he fused with Kami while I have 100% Namek Freezer at 11.5 - 12 millions of strength more or less.
Frost, even being a more experienced fighter than Freezer was in Namek (and probably also in FnF), would be at 10-11 millions at best considering he was easily beaten by regular FPSSJ (DBS manga only).

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Piccolo was beyond any Super Saiyan after merging with Kami. I don't understand your power levels. Do you intentionally make everyone not named Freeza weak?

That "regular" Super Saiyan is still way stronger than he was on Namek, the Cell Games, and the Boo saga.

 

[Keedounan]

While using the KKx10. Of course, we are speaking of base Goku's power without using the KK here.

And Goku never used Kaioken in RoF (be it movie, manga or anime version).

Furthermore, your claim was that Goku SSJ fought only with a fraction of his strength because he was injured when he transformed, but I already demonstrated that the SSJ trasnformation was done over an enraged base Goku that had replenished and even augmented his strength past his previous peak.

Never argued that he only used a fraction of his power, though. Just that he could've been stronger under the right conditions.

There was no manga version of the arc.

There is.

The only manga there existed was the FnF manga, based on the FnF movie (in other words, it was an adaptation of the movie).

Precisely. And it's canon to manga! Super, as Whis mentionned Golden Freeza.

In the movies Goku has in his base forms his SSJG powers absorbed, but then the movies didn't adapt the U6 tournament saga so we can't properly compare because we don't know how would those sagas develop if written using the movies logic.

You think that we can't compare properly, but it's clear you're just vercomplicating it. This manga is canon to the Super manga (logical, they have the same author), meaning that it follows the same logic as in the manga.

Plus, just look at Anime DBZ. It's an adaptation of the manga, but you can clearly tell that they don't have the same logic in powerscaling. I wonder why you've even hesitated about it.

The DBS manga clearly contradicts the movies in this aspect, so you can't use the logic of the FnF manga to compare character appeared there to characters that only exist in the FnF manga.

Said character (Golden Freeza) is stated to have existed in the Super (manga), the FnF manga was written by the same author and there is no evidence that this manga follows the same powerscaling as the one in Anime, and as Anime DBZ showed, the work being an adaptation to the movie isn't an evidence for that. So again, what keep me from using the FnF manga ?

Finally, in the same way you compare how both Frost and Freezer performed against Goku, why don't you compare how they both performed against Piccolo? Piccolo was nothing against FnF Freezer's weakest form (to the point he was considered to be weaker than Gohan, and Gohan got humiliated by Freezer's weakest form) and then he could have a decent fight against true form Frost.

Because, unless you consider that Base Goku held back 99,99% of his power, which makes one wonder why he even bothered to turn into SSJ to force Frost to use his final form) of his power, I can simply conclude that Piccolo got much more powerful since RoF. After all, he was near SSJ-tier in Android arc even before fusing with God just when earlier, he was nowhere near Freeza's power. And considering that Piccolo is one of the most likely to train hard, it actually makes sense.

That's if I say that using the anime to back up your claims won't lead you anywhere?

As if I needed the anime to prove that Frost is stronger than Freeza (Namek period), or even Freeza (RoF) short of his Golden form. In both medias, Frost was shown to handle Goku better than Freeza did in equal forms.

Where is it said that this is an anime only debate? And by the way, considering that the anime lacks any kind of coherence while the manga at least tries and manages to be much better, why would be discussing about the anime instead of discussing about the manga?

I've simply argued that using the manga over an anime-only element is irrelevant.

As I've already said, in the anime anything can happen, so yes, you can even argue that both Frost and Piccolo were stronger than Golden Freezer there.

Let's not exaggerate here...

Anyways, you're the one who tried to contradict the fact that Frost was above SSJG in Anime. And I did said that in the manga, I don't disagree that SSJG > Frost, clearly at that !

But it's not a theory that Goku can suppress his power. So base Goku > SSJG Goku while heavily suppressed Goku <<< regular SSJ Goku <<< unsuppressed base Goku is a possibility as well, and it would make more sense than assuming that Piccolo went from being nothing against Freezer's weakest form to >>>> someone that could rival or even surpass Golden Freezer. So even in the anime it could be argued that Frost wasn't that strong.

Let me get this straight... you're telling me that Goku going through the trouble to turn into SSJ just to force Frost to use his full power when he could have simply done that by powering up makes more sense than Piccolo training hard enough to keep up, despite the fact that Goku was confident enough about his abilities to even include him in the tournament ? Add to that the fact that Goku could have one-shotted him from the start in his base form instead of turning into SSJ for fun...yeah, unlikely for me.

I've already explained that.

You never did.

Using the DBS manga, Goku base was Goku base, which also using both the original and the DBS manga, had a strength limit that prevented him from growing stronger past the point when he became a SSJ.
That Goku, without KK, could've at best matched Freezer's weakest form (although I don't think he ever reached 530k units in his base form), while at the same time he could trade some blows with Frost's assault form.
That's why I say Frost was weaker (that, and Piccolo performing so well against Frost, to the point he had to cheat in order to win against him).

Is there any evidence that Goku can't grow stronger in base form ?

Plus, that's nice and all, except that Frost, even weakened, still had the upper-hand over Piccolo (and that was before he cheated). It's the same Piccolo who could fight evenly with Android 17 back in Androids arc, and he's way stronger than that now !

Also, take into account the fact that Freeza (Namek) lost to Goku. Granted, he wasn't exactly at full power because of his injuries, but considering how superficial those were compared to what we got to see in the series (heck, all of Freeza's limbs were fine, and he fought just fine), we can safely assume that he wasn't that far off either. A 10 % loss is already considered massive mathematically speaking. Even if he lost half of his power, considering the gap between Android 17 ajd SSJ Goku (Namek), Freeza (Namek) would still end up much weaker than Piccolo, let alone Frost.

Frost >>>>>> Freeza (Namek). Take [mention]Evil Vegeta[/mention]'s advice, and stop overrating Freeza.

Feats only, but feats from different series. In FnF (both manga and movie) Goku's base had his godly powers.

There is no proof that Goku kept this power in the RoF manga, as it wasn't even stated in the movie proper. As said before, it's not because it's an adaptation that it has the same powerscaling rules, which weren't even established in this movie, but in BoG , which is dealt with differently in the manga anyways.

FnF manga = canon to DBS manga.

Piccolo's performance against Frost, or base Goku performance against Frost while not using any kind of KK to reinforce him prove that.

In this arc, both are way stronger than they were back in Namek arc. It's like arguing that Raditz > Nappa because Raditz defeated Goku while Nappa didn't.

This argument is irrelevant.

 

[freezamite]

Piccolo was beyond any Super Saiyan after merging with Kami. I don't understand your power levels. Do you intentionally make everyone not named Freeza weak?

That "regular" Super Saiyan is still way stronger than he was on Namek, the Cell Games, and the Boo saga.

Yes, Piccolo was beyond any (untrained) Super Saiyan after merging with Kami, I'm aware of that.
And no, I'm not making anyone weaker than I think he is. And regarding that "regular" SSJ, I don't think the SSJ forms evolved past the bu saga (in other words, they had reached their peak there, at least for Goku).
I mean, we already saw how when Cell increased his strength after the zenkay power, his aura became like the one with a SSJ2 (with sparks in it). But Cell wasn't a regular saiyan, his aura was the one of a SSJ but he didn't go through the regular SSJ transformations like a saiyan would do. That means that any SSJ aura without those sparks in it is weaker than post zenkay Cell in the Cell games, because the sparks in the aura aren't there because of the SSJ2 transformations, but because of the increased power of the SSJ2 over the regular SSJ form (that's why the SSJ3 also had those sparks in the aura).

And Goku never used Kaioken in RoF (be it movie, manga or anime version).

Yes, I was speaking of his fight in Namek.

Never argued that he only used a fraction of his power, though. Just that he could've been stronger under the right conditions.

Well, yes, but those "right" conditions would have been Goku enraged while uninjured. Considering Goku's personality, I don't even think that would be possible.
That being said, Namek Goku and post-Yadrat Goku were at the same level more or less.

Precisely. And it's canon to manga! Super, as Whis mentionned Golden Freeza.

No, it isn't. The Golden Freezer saga is canon to DBS manga, but the portrayal of Goku's power in the FnF manga and movies is not canon to the DBS manga.
If you re-read the DBS chapters of the Battle of Gods saga, you'll see that in the DBS manga Goku always fights with his SSJGod form all the time, and only when the fight is over and he has no more strength left he goes back to his normal base state. In the movie, he put up a better fight after losing his SSJ God form than when he still had it.

So, even if in the overall sense the Golden Freezer saga is canon in the DBS manga, how the SSJ Gods powers were portrayed was retconned from the very beginning which means that, if the DBS manga had made the adaptation of FnF, Goku would've turned into his red SSJ God form to fight original form Freezer.

This manga is canon to the Super manga (logical, they have the same author), meaning that it follows the same logic as in the manga.

Nope, they're two different mangas based on the same series. The FnF manga was in fact a promotional manga drawn to adapt the first half of the movie (drawn by the same author, true, but following the movie's logic, since what he was doing there was adapting the movie to the manga) so it's not like the author had the liberty to drew it as he wanted.
In the same way that the first movie (Battle of Gods) was retconned in the manga in the way the SSJ God powers were portrayed, why do you think it would be different with the FnF saga if that had been adapted?

Said character (Golden Freeza) is stated to have existed in the Super (manga), the FnF manga was written by the same author and there is no evidence that this manga follows the same powerscaling as the one in Anime, and as Anime DBZ showed, the work being an adaptation to the movie isn't an evidence for that. So again, what keep me from using the FnF manga ?

I'm not saying that the manga follows the same powerscaling as the anime (in fact, I'm saying the opposite). I'm saying that the DBS manga follows the powerscaling of the DBS manga, nothing more, nothing less.
Now, if you read the DBS manga adaptation of battle of gods, you'll see how Goku never used his godly powers in any form that wasn't his red SSJ God form. And even after that saga, every time Goku uses the SSJ God powers he turns into the red SSJ God.
What you're saying is that the DBS manga uses one way to portray the SSJ God powers for the Battle of Gods saga, then he changes it (without showing it to us) in the FnF saga that's skipped, to then change it again in every other saga we see. I don't think that makes much sense, do you?

Because, unless you consider that Base Goku held back 99,99% of his power, which makes one wonder why he even bothered to turn into SSJ to force Frost to use his final form) of his power, I can simply conclude that Piccolo got much more powerful since RoF. After all, he was near SSJ-tier in Android arc even before fusing with God just when earlier, he was nowhere near Freeza's power. And considering that Piccolo is one of the most likely to train hard, it actually makes sense.

Well, that's not the case for the DBS manga, so I concede that Goku helding back 99,99% of his power to then transform into regular SSJ seems forced (although I insist that it's way less forced than Piccolo multiplying his strength hundreds of times in a matter of a few months).
Regarding Piccolo's strength increase from the Namek arc to the Androids arc, three comments:
1. Piccolo had just fused with Nail at Namek. That means that as the new being he had become, he still had a lot of potential to untape.
2. Even if he really increased his strength a lot, he still only multiplied by less than 3 in 3 years. Compared to that, the difference between Piccolo's strength in FnF and U6 tournament is much, much, much bigger.
3. It also goes against the general logic of the series. In the DB series every character had a limit, and the closer they were to that limit the lesser their improvements and the harder to evolve. The saiyans needed to transform into SSJ to surpass their limits, but even as SSJ, regular training wasn't as effective and they had to learnt to master their Ki and eliminate the stress the trasnformation produced in order to evolve.
For Piccolo, Namek Piccolo to android Piccolo was a big increase, then when he fused with Kami he moderately increased his strength and in the RoSaT he did as well. But from Cell games Piccolo to Bu saga Piccolo, the increase was really small considering 7 years had passed.

I've simply argued that using the manga

A different manga than the one we're now talking.

Let's not exaggerate here...

I'm not exaggerating. If Frost transformations increased his strength in the same proportion Freezer transformations did, then his Assault form was what, 10-15% of Frost's maximum power?
If that was already above SSJ God levels of power, and we say true form Freezer was below that, I don't think that Freezer's Golden form would be such a huge increase considering what we saw on the movie.

you're telling me that Goku going through the trouble to turn into SSJ just to force Frost to use his full power when he could have simply done that by powering up makes more sense than Piccolo training hard enough to keep up, despite the fact that Goku was confident enough about his abilities to even include him in the tournament ?

Yes, because:
1. It's not "trouble" for Goku to turn into a SSJ, and if we are speaking of the anime, it probably was done so the spectators could say "look, frost is below a regular FP SSJ". It's the anime we are speaking of, so Toei doing it this way so it's easier to understand for the kids the level of power Goku is using at that point doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

2. Piccolo having that huge increase in strength in a matter of months after we saw how he evolved from the Cell saga to the Bu saga (implying that he was reaching his peak in strength) breaks the internal coherence of the series, even if the anime completely lacks that coherence.

Is there any evidence that Goku can't grow stronger in base form ?

Yes, at least three evidences in the original manga and one extra evidence in the DBS manga.
The first one is the explanation of what a SSJ is. The SSJ is described as "the saiyan that overcomes a wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome...".
The second one is Vegeta explaining how he reached a limit he couldn't surpass even when he trained as hard as he could. Only through transforming into a SSJ he could surpass that.
The third is Goku's 40 tons feat in the Bu saga. 40 tons is the equivalent of 700G more or less for Goku, and he couldn't resist that in his base state. Considering that with 90.000 units of strength he could endure 100G with no problem, at 300.000 units that would be a tad over 300G. Him not being able to move at 700G means that his power didn't increase much more past that, if at all.
The fourth is the explanation of Black's zenkay power. Goku and Vegeta didn't have zenkays because their bodies had already reached their limits, while Black, having Zamatsu's spirit inside and becoming a new being as a result of that, didn't have that limit.

Also, take into account the fact that Freeza (Namek) lost to Goku. Granted, he wasn't exactly at full power because of his injuries, but considering how superficial those were compared to what we got to see in the series (heck, all of Freeza's limbs were fine, and he fought just fine), we can safely assume that he wasn't that far off either.

That's not how it works. Since when is DB a gory manga where a character isn't injured until he loses a limb or two? Raditz's power fell to a fraction of his original power after receiving Gohan's headbutt, and in terms of how he looked, he seemed to be in much better condition than Freezer after the Genkidama.
Freezer stated that he had been nearly killed with the Genkidama, it wasn't a superficial injury at all.

A 10 % loss is already considered massive mathematically speaking. Even if he lost half of his power, considering the gap between Android 17 ajd SSJ Goku (Namek), Freeza (Namek) would still end up much weaker than Piccolo, let alone Frost.

??? Even if he had only lost half his power (my estimation is that he lost 2/3 of it between the Genkidama and Goku's further beating), he would be much stronger than Android 17.
SSJ Vegeta was at Android 18 levels of power, and even if A17 was stronger, the difference wasn't that big. In fact, Android 17 fought with Piccolo, and we know Piccolo had between 3 and 4 million of units of strength at that point.

As said before, it's not because it's an adaptation that it has the same powerscaling rules, which weren't even established in this movie, but in BoG , which is dealt with differently in the manga anyways.

Exactly that. So if the DBS manga retconns the way the SSJ God powers are portrayed even for the BoG saga, what makes you think that the same doesn't apply in DBS's unseen FnF saga? If the BoG saga of the DBS manga followed the same logic of the movies, then we could discuss it, but that's not the case.
The DBS manga uses the same logic from the very beginning: when Goku is using the SSJGod powers, he turns into the red SSJ God. And that goes from the first chapter the SSJ God appears to any other chapter of the manga. Why would the FnF saga break that logic exactly?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Trunks had Super Saiyan for quite a few yrs and trained in the form. Same with Goku. They weren't untrained; they just didn't train in the rosat. The strongest Super Saiyan had the form the least compared to the others, but that doesn't change the point. Piccolo was still way beyond them all after merging with Kami. The same Piccolo later trained in the rosat and had a drastic increase in power. Still above Namek Freeza, and still below Frost. That means, Frost>Piccolo>Namek Freeza.

Also, you seriously think Base Goku never surpassed 1st Form Freeza? That's as illogical as an opinion can get, if I'm being honest.

 

[freezamite]

Trunks had Super Saiyan for quite a few yrs and trained in the form. Same with Goku. They weren't untrained; they just didn't train in the rosat. The strongest Super Saiyan had the form the least compared to the others, but that doesn't change the point. Piccolo was still way beyond them all after merging with Kami. The same Piccolo later trained in the rosat and had a drastic increase in power. Still above Namek Freeza, and still below Frost. That means, Frost>Piccolo>Namek Freeza.

Also, you seriously think Base Goku never surpassed 1st Form Freeza? That's as illogical as an opinion can get, if I'm being honest.

Trunks had Super Saiyan for quite a few years, true, but he lacked the training Goku had when it came to controlling and mastering the Ki.
When Trunks travelled to the past, he had the same strength as a SSJ than Goku had when Goku had just learned how to transform into a SSJ at will.
And of course, Piccolo was beyond them after merging with Kami (between 3 and 4 millions compared to just 3 millions for Trunks and Goku SSJ) and he could even increase his strength even further (let's say, to 6 millions considering he had recently fused with Kami and as a result he was a new being with higher potential), but considering that from the Cell saga to the Bu saga his power barely increased, I don't think he could suddenly power up that much.
And how strong do you think Namek Freezer was? Because you're saying he was below kami-Piccolo, so how strong do you think Freezer was? Remember that at his 3rd form (2nd if you count them in the order of appearance) he already surpassed the 1 million mark...

And regarding base Goku... what's so illogical about it? I have base Goku at between 300k and 400k and that is pretty clear to me considering the 40 tons feat from the Bu saga. Freezer was at 530.000 in his weakest form so...

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I have 100% Freeza at 140 million.

I have Piccolo at 500 million after merging with Kami.

If Piccolo was already over a million when merged with Nail, trained with Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan for 3 yrs, and reached a level Krillin thought was only possible for Super Saiyans, why do you have him so low after assimilation? Between 3 or 4 million is barely any improvement at all.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Manga: Frost.
Anime: I go with ''two bases'', so Freeza.

 

[freezamite]

I have 100% Freeza at 140 million.

I have Piccolo at 500 million after merging with Kami.

If Piccolo was already over a million when merged with Nail, trained with Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan for 3 yrs, and reached a level Krillin thought was only possible for Super Saiyans, why do you have him so low after assimilation? Between 3 or 4 million is barely any improvement at all.

Wow, that's huge. Really huge. How did Cell go from being far weaker than Piccolo to completely surpass him while only absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans?
I mean, considering a male farmer had a strength of 5, and that a normal kid had a strength of 1, Cell could've gained at best between 1 and 1.5 millions of units through absorbing humans. And that would be 30-40% of Piccolo's power because that allowed him to go from < weighted Piccolo to >> Piccolo and A17.

My scaling is:
Namek Piccolo 1.2 millions, Androids Piccolo 2.9 millions and Kami-Piccolo 3.4 millions. Those are really big increases (I know they seem tiny compared to what we saw on the Namek saga, but remember that the ones having large boosts were the saiyans thanks to the zenkay powers, and then Piccolo because he went from being a half being to a nearly completed one thanks to fusing with Nail) as well, and make sense with the data given in the Cell saga (I insist, Cell only gained between 1 and 1.5 million of units through absorbing humans, if Piccolo was at 500 million, that would've meant nothing to Cell).

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Frost one shots anybody pre DBS

 

[Keedounan]

Yes, I was speaking of his fight in Namek.

Great. He's much more powerful than he was on Namek.

No, it isn't. The Golden Freezer saga is canon to DBS manga, but the portrayal of Goku's power in the FnF manga and movies is not canon to the DBS manga.

So, you think that the work that Toyotaro wrote himself (along with manga! Super) shouldn't be canon, because the powerscaling isn't the same, despite the fact that there is not any evidence that the portrayal of Goku's power in the FnF arc is the same as the one in the anime, nor that Toyotaro wrote the manga with that logic in mind.

Okay, RoF arc is canon to the manga, that much you've admitted. The thing is, it means that one of the works (Anime, Manga or Movie) is canon to the manga, whether you want it or not. As Toyotaro is the one who wrote both the FnF manga and Super manga, this work is the closest candidat to it.

Thing is, Base Goku fought 4th form Freeza in RoF, in all three medias included, and had the power advantage in all of them (though to a lesser extent in Anime). The same can't be said for Frost. Therefore, Frost > Freeza.

Nope, they're two different mangas based on the same series. The FnF manga was in fact a promotional manga drawn to adapt the first half of the movie (drawn by the same author, true, but following the movie's logic, since what he was doing there was adapting the movie to the manga) so it's not like the author had the liberty to drew it as he wanted.
In the same way that the first movie (Battle of Gods) was retconned in the manga in the way the SSJ God powers were portrayed, why do you think it would be different with the FnF saga if that had been adapted?

Said character (Golden Freeza) is stated to have existed in the Super (manga), the FnF manga was written by the same author and there is no evidence that this manga follows the same powerscaling as the one in Anime, and as Anime DBZ showed, the work being an adaptation to the movie isn't an evidence for that. So again, what keep me from using the FnF manga ?

I'm not saying that the manga follows the same powerscaling as the anime (in fact, I'm saying the opposite). I'm saying that the DBS manga follows the powerscaling of the DBS manga, nothing more, nothing less.
Now, if you read the DBS manga adaptation of battle of gods, you'll see how Goku never used his godly powers in any form that wasn't his red SSJ God form. And even after that saga, every time Goku uses the SSJ God powers he turns into the red SSJ God.
What you're saying is that the DBS manga uses one way to portray the SSJ God powers for the Battle of Gods saga, then he changes it (without showing it to us) in the FnF saga that's skipped, to then change it again in every other saga we see. I don't think that makes much sense, do you?

Well, that's not the case for the DBS manga, so I concede that Goku helding back 99,99% of his power to then transform into regular SSJ seems forced (although I insist that it's way less forced than Piccolo multiplying his strength hundreds of times in a matter of a few months).

Your opinion. As for me, it's complete nonsense that Goku doesn't simply power-up instead of using SSJ.

Regarding Piccolo's strength increase from the Namek arc to the Androids arc, three comments:
1. Piccolo had just fused with Nail at Namek. That means that as the new being he had become, he still had a lot of potential to untape.

Fair enough.

2. Even if he really increased his strength a lot, he still only multiplied by less than 3 in 3 years. Compared to that, the difference between Piccolo's strength in FnF and U6 tournament is much, much, much bigger.

Piccolo got from weaker than 3rd form Freeza to SSJ-tier. I don't go by numbers anymore, but I think it's much more than multiplying by 3.

It also goes against the general logic of the series. In the DB series every character had a limit, and the closer they were to that limit the lesser their improvements and the harder to evolve. The saiyans needed to transform into SSJ to surpass their limits, but even as SSJ, regular training wasn't as effective and they had to learnt to master their Ki and eliminate the stress the trasnformation produced in order to evolve.

Q:Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!
A:Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

Saiyans can still get stronger in his base form, and they absolutely didn't needed the SSJ for that. Now, the potential

For Piccolo, Namek Piccolo to android Piccolo was a big increase, then when he fused with Kami he moderately increased his strength and in the RoSaT he did as well. But from Cell games Piccolo to Bu saga Piccolo, the increase was really small considering 7 years had passed.

And yet, you saw like me that Piccolo performed well against Frost. Despite the fact that Goku needed to use the SSJ just to surpass Frost in 3rd form and 4th form. But of course, you can choose to believe that Goku held back that much power for no reason.

I'm not exaggerating.

You are, clearly.

If Frost transformations increased his strength in the same proportion Freezer transformations did, then his Assault form was what, 10-15% of Frost's maximum power?
If that was already above SSJ God levels of power, and we say true form Freezer was below that, I don't think that Freezer's Golden form would be such a huge increase considering what we saw on the movie.

Look, SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ. That much, we can agree on that.

* Thing is, Golden Freeza was beating up Super Saiyan Blue Goku despite the fact that he was weaker than Base Goku (RoF arc) in his final form.
* 4th form Frost was getting beat up by Super Saiyan Goku despite the fact that he was stronger than Base Goku (Champa arc) in his third form.

Golden Freeza would stomp Frost in any form.

Yes, because
1. It's not "trouble" for Goku to turn into a SSJ, and if we are speaking of the anime, it probably was done so the spectators could say "look, frost is below a regular FP SSJ". It's the anime we are speaking of, so Toei doing it this way so it's easier to understand for the kids the level of power Goku is using at that point doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

If they wanted the kids to understand that, they would could have outright explained that Goku is using two types of ki. Instead, there are not even a single evidence outside of inconsistencie that it's the case. As such, if there is any kid who immediately thought about the two bases theory that just by looking at the fights, tell me where to find him, because s/he's a damn genius.

2. Piccolo having that huge increase in strength in a matter of months after we saw how he evolved from the Cell saga to the Bu saga (implying that he was reaching his peak in strength) breaks the internal coherence of the series, even if the anime completely lacks that coherence.

Yeah right, because Goku and Vegeta using their SSJ form to deal with Frost, Magetta and SSJ Kyabe despite the fact that they could have wiped the floor with all of them by simply using their full power in base form makes more sense than Piccolo simply making lots of progress (despite the fact that it's not the first time that someone did that in the series).

Yes, at least three evidences in the original manga and one extra evidence in the DBS manga.
The first one is the explanation of what a SSJ is. The SSJ is described as "the saiyan that overcomes a wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome...".

The full quote is that:

A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…That’s supposed to just be a stupid tradition…And even if the legend were true…only I would have the potential to become a Super Saiyan.

Basically, the quote is stating once in every thousand years, a Saiyan, with the Super Saiyan, can reach a realm of power that nobody can attain. The statement is basically saying that, which carries another message than what you've tried to pass (that Goku can't get stronger without the SSJ): any Saiyan who use the SSJ is invincible, in fact.

And Toriyama's interview above completely undermines this interpretation of the quote anyways.

The second one is Vegeta explaining how he reached a limit he couldn't surpass even when he trained as hard as he could. Only through transforming into a SSJ he could surpass that.

He thought that it was his limit. Then he got more powerful, even when he trains in his base form (which should be useless according to your logic).

The third is Goku's 40 tons feat in the Bu saga. 40 tons is the equivalent of 700G more or less for Goku, and he couldn't resist that in his base state. Considering that with 90.000 units of strength he could endure 100G with no problem, at 300.000 units that would be a tad over 300G. Him not being able to move at 700G means that his power didn't increase much more past that, if at all.

...Okay, I'll tell you something. Do you know Goku's weight under 100G ? 6,2 tons. He carried 40 tons in base form. So, according to the numbers, Goku got over six times stronger between Ginyu arc and Boo arc. Thing is, KKx20 Goku could hurt Freeza using half of his power, which should put him at 2,5 % of Freeza's final form without using any Kaioken...this is far stronger than a mere six times boost !

1st form Freeza = 530,000.
2nd form Freeza (initial) = He estimated it would be over one million.

Base Goku > 4th form Freeza (initial) >= Vegeta (3rd Zenkai) >= 3rd form Freeza > Piccolo = 2nd form Freeza (2nd power-up) > Piccolo (Weighted) = 2nd form Freeza (1st power-up) > 2nd form Freeza (initial) > 1 million > 1st form Freeza = 530,000

Chain established through statements and feats.

The fourth is the explanation of Black's zenkay power. Goku and Vegeta didn't have zenkays because their bodies had already reached their limits, while Black, having Zamatsu's spirit inside and becoming a new being as a result of that, didn't have that limit.

Now, that would be a good evidence if they didn't kept getting stronger.

That's not how it works. Since when is DB a gory manga where a character isn't injured until he loses a limb or two?

What I meant is that Freeza was pretty fine. He didn't ended up with a broken limb, he didn't end up incapacitated, he didn't had a major injury, only superficial ones, he had no difficulty to walk, run, or fly really fast.

Raditz's power fell to a fraction of his original power after receiving Gohan's headbutt, and in terms of how he looked, he seemed to be in much better condition than Freezer after the Genkidama.

Raditz took a full powered blow in the solar plexus. He could barely walk !

Freezer stated that he had been nearly killed with the Genkidama, it wasn't a superficial injury at all.

And yet he's able to fight much better than Raditz did.

??? Even if he had only lost half his power (my estimation is that he lost 2/3 of it between the Genkidama and Goku's further beating), he would be much stronger than Android 17.

According to you, Freeza would be over twice as strong as he was against Goku if he was at his full condition. Let's say it's true.

Mecha Freeza is more powerful than he previously was at his best condition, as he himself admitted. Yet, he isn't even sure that he can take on SSJ Goku alone. Pretty weird for someone who was keeping up with him with less than half of his power, huh ?

Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

The fact that this statement ends up wrong, as Yardrat Goku is the one who killed Freeza and his father in the original timeline doesn't help your argument either, and in both Namek arc and RoF arc, he let Freeza power up to his full power just for challenge's sake. Therefore, it's very likely that Goku also did in this timeline. In fact, as Goku always want to fight his opponent at his best level, it would be a out-of-character moment (which Goku rarely displayed) to do the opposite.

Finally, the manga makes clear multiple times that Freeza is outclassed:

1)SSJ Trunks, who killed Freeza, calls 17 and 18 monsters (in terms of power):

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Granted, Trunks didn't let Freeza use his full power, but considering that he's around as powerful as Yardrat Goku (who, I remind you, killed Freeza in the original timeline), the outcome wouldn't have changed even if he did.

2)The Z-Team's reaction to their "fight" against the androids

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Context: talking about how Trunks and co. lost to the androids
Tenshinhan: “[Trunks] is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”


Krillin stated that Imperfect Cell (Gingertown) is stronger than Freeza too. Keep in mind that Cell was weaker than Piccolo (thus Android 17) at this point.

3)Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”

SSJ Vegeta was at Android 18 levels of power, and even if A17 was stronger, the difference wasn't that big. In fact, Android 17 fought with Piccolo, and we know Piccolo had between 3 and 4 million of units of strength at that point.

Considering that 2nd form Freeza is already above 1 millions, I doubt that they're that weak. Especially considering the fact that they're way above SSJ-tier.

Exactly that. So if the DBS manga retconns the way the SSJ God powers are portrayed even for the BoG saga, what makes you think that the same doesn't apply in DBS's unseen FnF saga?

1)We saw it (well, half of it). Considering that Toyotaro didn't bothered to include the RoF arc in the manga (on paper at least), then we can safely assume that the fight against Freeza happened the same way as in the other medias, which is to say Base Goku VS Freeza, SSJB Goku VS Golden Freeza. Anyways...

2)I do think that the same apply to the FnF arc (even the promotional one, just because it's an adaptation doesn't mean the powerscaling is the same). If the way it's portrayed in the Super manga is retconned, why FnF arc would be any different. In Toyotaro's manga, Goku and Vegeta tend to use the same forms they used in Anime battles, except without the godly power. So, the Base Goku that Freeza fought in the manga isn't as powerful as the one in the movie and anime either.

If the BoG saga of the DBS manga followed the same logic of the movies, then we could discuss it, but that's not the case.
The DBS manga uses the same logic from the very beginning: when Goku is using the SSJGod powers, he turns into the red SSJ God. And that goes from the first chapter the SSJ God appears to any other chapter of the manga. Why would the FnF saga break that logic exactly?

You've completely missed my point if you think I've even wanted to argue that. My point was precisely that FnF arc works the same way as the rest. The thing is, Freeza never fought Goku in his SSJG form, but in his base form. So that means if the FnF arc has the same logic as all the arcs in the manga, 4th form Freeza is weaker than he was in the Anime and Movie version of the arc. Plain and simple.

 

[failPow]

Great. He's much more powerful than he was on Namek.

I don't think so. His base state limit wasn't much higher than what he had (if any higher at all) when he fought Freezer.

So, you think that the work that Toyotaro wrote himself (along with manga! Super) shouldn't be canon, because the powerscaling isn't the same, despite the fact that there is not any evidence that the portrayal of Goku's power in the FnF arc is the same as the one in the anime, nor that Toyotaro wrote the manga with that logic in mind.

Yes, I'm saying that what Toyotaro wrote adapting a movie not written by him can't be directly compared to what he directly wrote when we know he is following a different rule of power showcasing (not powerscaling).

Okay, RoF arc is canon to the manga, that much you've admitted. The thing is, it means that one of the works (Anime, Manga or Movie) is canon to the manga, whether you want it or not. As Toyotaro is the one who wrote both the FnF manga and Super manga, this work is the closest candidat to it.

No, it means that what happened in those works is canon to the manga, except for the parts that are contradicted by the manga itself.
In my case, since the movie is the closest we have to what Toriyama had on mind (some parts of it weren't made by Toriyama, but it was still better than the anime when it came to the main fight against Freezer), I choose to take that movie as the manga canon, but applying to it the logic of the manga, of course.

Thing is, Base Goku fought 4th form Freeza in RoF, in all three medias included, and had the power advantage in all of them (though to a lesser extent in Anime). The same can't be said for Frost. Therefore, Frost > Freeza.

Thing is, base Goku in those 3 medias had the god powers absorbed, while in the manga he has to turn into the red SSJGod to fight with the SSJGod powers.
So you can take whatever version of that saga you like the most to fill the gap the manga left, but that doesn't change the DBS manga internal rule of making Goku red when it activates the SSJ God powers.
In the DBS manga Goku can't use his godly powers without turning into the red SSJGod, so when he fights in his base against Frost, he isn't using those powers.

Your opinion. As for me, it's complete nonsense that Goku doesn't simply power-up instead of using SSJ.

Which can be argued for the anime, but not for the manga version of DBS. In the manga version of DBS he turned a SSJ because he felt he could win without using the SSJGod form, which means that Frost was never fighting SSJGod Goku.

Q:Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!
A:Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

Saiyans can still get stronger in his base form, and they absolutely didn't needed the SSJ for that. Now, the potential

After fighting with Beerus, and in the context of the first movie, that may be right. But that's because Goku's base state had absorbed the power of the SSJ God, so that logic can't be applied to pre-SSJGod Goku or in a series that doesn't follow that rule and still makes Goku turn into SSJGod when he needs to use the SSJGod powers.

And yet, you saw like me that Piccolo performed well against Frost. Despite the fact that Goku needed to use the SSJ just to surpass Frost in 3rd form and 4th form. But of course, you can choose to believe that Goku held back that much power for no reason.

I choose to speak about the manga version of that fight. Goku of course held back that much power (he could have transformed into the SSJGod or the SSJB if he wanted, but he didn't feel the necessity to do so), but in a different way than the one you imply.

Look, SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ. That much, we can agree on that.

* Thing is, Golden Freeza was beating up Super Saiyan Blue Goku despite the fact that he was weaker than Base Goku (RoF arc) in his final form.
* 4th form Frost was getting beat up by Super Saiyan Goku despite the fact that he was stronger than Base Goku (Champa arc) in his third form.

Golden Freeza would stomp Frost in any form.

It depends on the version of DBS you look at. In the movies, SSJ and base Goku had nearly the same strength, as it was implied that Goku just turned into a SSJ because of his emotions but the increase in strength was marginal at best (Bills beat 80% SSJGod Goku, then Goku lost his SSJGod form but performed better against Bills connecting some hits, and finally we are told that Goku absorbed most of his SSJGod powers which meant that the difference between base Goku and SSJGoku had to be less than 5% if there was any difference at all). In the FnF movie the regular SSJ forms where directly replaced and Goku went from Base+God to SSJB.

If you take the anime, it happens whatever Toei wants it to happen, so it doesn't matter. Are you sure SSJB > SSJ2? Because Trunks SSJ2 (pre bullshit-rage boost) already performed better than SSJB Goku. Impossible to know what Toei had on mind when they drew that fight.

And in the manga, as I said, the scale is: SSJB > SSJGod > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ (even if there are instances of SSJ2 surpassing SSJ3 fighters, for the same character the SSJ3 is stronger than the SSJ2 without a doubt).

And Toriyama's interview above completely undermines this interpretation of the quote anyways.

It doesn't, because that interview spoke about a Base Goku that had undergone a special ritual to make him much stronger than he should be. It's like using mystic Gohan to justify that the base state has no limits.

He thought that it was his limit. Then he got more powerful, even when he trains in his base form (which should be useless according to your logic).

No, he not only thought that it was his limit, HE CONFIRMED that he had reached his limits. That's what he says:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

He realized his limits after a lot of harsh training with no results, and that's why he got angry with himself. It wasn't him just saying "hey, I think that today I haven't improved a lot", it was him getting frustrated at the fact that no matter what he did he couldn't reach Goku's power and then getting a rage boost that usually he could've never had.

...Okay, I'll tell you something. Do you know Goku's weight under 100G ? 6,2 tons. He carried 40 tons in base form. So, according to the numbers, Goku got over six times stronger between Ginyu arc and Boo arc. Thing is, KKx20 Goku could hurt Freeza using half of his power, which should put him at 2,5 % of Freeza's final form without using any Kaioken...this is far stronger than a mere six times boost !

Yes, I did the calculation already.
Firstly, Goku didn't "carry" 40 tons. He nearly broke when Kaito upgraded the weight, and had to turn into a SSJ to properly carry them. If you see Goku's performance at 100G, he was moving quite well under that pressure. With 40 tons he couldn't move at all (in fact, he couldn't even lift the weight).
And remember that Goku had a zenkay power after that (the Goku that could move well at 100G had 90k units).
Regarding him being at 2,5% of Freezer's final form, I more or less agree (I would have him a bit higher), but that's not 6 times stronger than 90K as I see it.

1st form Freeza = 530,000.
2nd form Freeza (initial) = He estimated it would be over one million.

Base Goku > 4th form Freeza (initial) >= Vegeta (3rd Zenkai) >= 3rd form Freeza > Piccolo = 2nd form Freeza (2nd power-up) > Piccolo (Weighted) = 2nd form Freeza (1st power-up) > 2nd form Freeza (initial) > 1 million > 1st form Freeza = 530,000

Chain established through statements and feats.

That's not how I see it.
Base Goku KKx10 > 4th form Freezer (initial) >>> Vegeta (3rd Zenkay) ?=? 3rd form Freezer > Piccolo > 2nd form Freezer (max) > 1 million > 2nd form Freezer (1st power-up) > 2nd form Freezer (initial) > 530k = 1st Form Freezer

What I meant is that Freeza was pretty fine. He didn't ended up with a broken limb, he didn't end up incapacitated, he didn't had a major injury, only superficial ones, he had no difficulty to walk, run, or fly really fast.

And that's why I give him still 1/3rd of his power between the Genkidama and Goku's beating. I mean, 1/3rd of Freezer's power is still more than enough to walk, run or fly really fast, don't you think?

Raditz took a full powered blow in the solar plexus. He could barely walk !

Him not being able to properly walk was just after the impact and because of the pain (Cell couldn't also properly walk after taking Vegeta's hit to the stomach, but that's only because of the immediate pain). Of course, Raditz got more injured than Freezer, but in terms of physical appearance, he seemed better. That's why I say that you can't judge how injured a character is only based on his external appearance.

According to you, Freeza would be over twice as strong as he was against Goku if he was at his full condition. Let's say it's true.

Mecha Freeza is more powerful than he previously was at his best condition, as he himself admitted. Yet, he isn't even sure that he can take on SSJ Goku alone. Pretty weird for someone who was keeping up with him with less than half of his power, huh ?

Mecha Freezer had only a fraction of the power of Namek Freezer, as it was proved by the multiple facts and quotes given during his fight.
First, Gohan sensing Mecha's power:

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”

Gohan assumed Freezer could get stronger, but that wasn't the case, Freezer was already at his maximum power as we later saw when he fought against Trunks without powering up any more (and that also explains why Freezer thinks he is stronger now. In Namek he had to force his body to use all his strength, which resulted in a less effective power up and a huge stamina loss. Without a scoutter strong enough to tell him how weak he was -he was still strong enough to destroy any existing scoutter- or him sparring against his father -which would go against his character- he had no means to know how strong he was).

He got beaten by SSJ Trunks, that had the same power than Goku in Namek.

In terms of speed and reaction speed, he was at the same level as transformed Cold, who was weaker than Namek Freezer. That means that his power was at around 1 million at best.

Finally, the manga makes clear multiple times that Freeza is outclassed:

1)SSJ Trunks, who killed Freeza, calls 17 and 18 monsters (in terms of power):

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Granted, Trunks didn't let Freeza use his full power, but considering that he's around as powerful as Yardrat Goku (who, I remind you, killed Freeza in the original timeline), the outcome wouldn't have changed even if he did.

Freezer had been stated to be much weaker than in Namek already, and it wouldn't make sense for Goku to downplay Trunks's performance (it's not as if Goku was Freezer's friend or anything like that).
Furthermore, it's true that Yadrat Goku destroyed both Mecha Freezer and Cold. Mecha Freezer wasn't a problem, even Vegeta or Piccolo could've killed him, but it's heavily implied that Goku needed the KKx20 to defeat Cold in the future timeline. The SSJ alone wasn't enough.

2)The Z-Team's reaction to their "fight" against the androids

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Context: talking about how Trunks and co. lost to the androids
Tenshinhan: “[Trunks] is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

None of those knew anything about Freezer's power. They talk for what they saw on the earth, not Namek.

Krillin stated that Imperfect Cell (Gingertown) is stronger than Freeza too. Keep in mind that Cell was weaker than Piccolo (thus Android 17) at this point.

3)Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”

Krilin is clearly not speaking of Gingertown Cell. Since they learned about Cell, they all feared what could happened if Cell had absorbed the androids. Krilin is not asking about that weaker version of Cell that at that point wasn't even a menace (they were looking for it in order to kill it).
What scared (and excited) Goku (and the rest of them) was what could happen if Cell absorbed the androids, not Cell at his current state.
And think about it for a second, does it really make much sense to ask Goku about Gingertown Cell? I mean, that's as if Krilin asked "Goku, there're currently 4 bad guys out-there with the aim of killing you. Are your scared or excited about the weakest one of them, the only one we could easily defeat as of now?".
I don't think Goku would have any reason to be scared or excited about that. And the fact that Krilin excludes the androids when he speaks about beings stronger than Freezer is also indicative of what I'm saying.

At that point, both Vegeta or Piccolo could've killed Cell if they found it.

Considering that 2nd form Freeza is already above 1 millions, I doubt that they're that weak. Especially considering the fact that they're way above SSJ-tier.

Well, we know Kami-Piccolo's power because we know how many people Cell needed to absorb in order to become that strong.

1)We saw it (well, half of it). Considering that Toyotaro didn't bothered to include the RoF arc in the manga (on paper at least), then we can safely assume that the fight against Freeza happened the same way as in the other medias, which is to say Base Goku VS Freeza, SSJB Goku VS Golden Freeza. Anyways...

2)I do think that the same apply to the FnF arc (even the promotional one, just because it's an adaptation doesn't mean the powerscaling is the same). If the way it's portrayed in the Super manga is retconned, why FnF arc would be any different. In Toyotaro's manga, Goku and Vegeta tend to use the same forms they used in Anime battles, except without the godly power. So, the Base Goku that Freeza fought in the manga isn't as powerful as the one in the movie and anime either.

In the manga base Goku is as strong as regular Base Goku from DBZ, as is proven by the fact that SSJ2 Goku is below SSJ2 Future Trunks that doesn't have any godly powers.
So unless you're saying that FnF was weaker than Namek Freezer (even Namek Freezer could fight against an untrained SSJ -who was above any base state saiyan could ever be-) in his original form that doesn't make sense.

You've completely missed my point if you think I've even wanted to argue that. My point was precisely that FnF arc works the same way as the rest. The thing is, Freeza never fought Goku in his SSJG form, but in his base form. So that means if the FnF arc has the same logic as all the arcs in the manga, 4th form Freeza is weaker than he was in the Anime and Movie version of the arc. Plain and simple.

Which contradicts the DBS manga, because the scene of Bills saying that base Goku could never defeat Freezer is still there. So unless FnF Freezer is weaker than Namek Freezer (which clearly isn't the case) your interpretation on those facts is wrong.

 

[Keedounan]

I don't think so. His base state limit wasn't much higher than what he had (if any higher at all) when he fought Freezer.

Your opinion. When you train your base state despite the fact that it should be useless according to your reasoning, I'm tempted to say that there is no such thing as "base state limit".

Yes, I'm saying that what Toyotaro wrote adapting a movie not written by him can't be directly compared to what he directly wrote when we know he is following a different rule of power showcasing (not powerscaling).

And you know that this argument isn't good enough because Toei had its own powerscaling despite adaptating Toriyama's stuff.

In my case, since the movie is the closest we have to what Toriyama had on mind (some parts of it weren't made by Toriyama, but it was still better than the anime when it came to the main fight against Freezer), I choose to take that movie as the manga canon, but applying to it the logic of the manga, of course.

This is what I kept telling you. Plus, Toyotaro was already applying this mindset to his manga with the anime battles. As such, Goku and Vegeta aren't as strong against Freeza, Kyabe etc. as they were in anime/movie with forms inferior to SSJB.

Thing is, base Goku in those 3 medias had the god powers absorbed, while in the manga he has to turn into the red SSJGod to fight with the SSJGod powers.

So you can take whatever version of that saga you like the most to fill the gap the manga left, but that doesn't change the DBS manga internal rule of making Goku red when it activates the SSJ God powers.
In the DBS manga Goku can't use his godly powers without turning into the red SSJGod, so when he fights in his base against Frost, he isn't using those powers.

I've figured out that much myself...

Which can be argued for the anime, but not for the manga version of DBS. In the manga version of DBS he turned a SSJ because he felt he could win without using the SSJGod form, which means that Frost was never fighting SSJGod Goku.

k

After fighting with Beerus, and in the context of the first movie, that may be right. But that's because Goku's base state had absorbed the power of the SSJ God, so that logic can't be applied to pre-SSJGod Goku or in a series that doesn't follow that rule and still makes Goku turn into SSJGod when he needs to use the SSJGod powers.

And yet, they are always training in base form instead of transforming even in the manga...which all but confirms this statement to be true. Heck, they did way before this statement !

I choose to speak about the manga version of that fight. Goku of course held back that much power (he could have transformed into the SSJGod or the SSJB if he wanted, but he didn't feel the necessity to do so), but in a different way than the one you imply.

If we talk about the manga, it's fine.

It depends on the version of DBS you look at. In the movies, SSJ and base Goku had nearly the same strength as it was implied that Goku just turned into a SSJ because of his emotions but the increase in strength was marginal at best (Bills beat 80% SSJGod Goku, then Goku lost his SSJGod form but performed better against Bills connecting some hits, and finally we are told that Goku absorbed most of his SSJGod powers which meant that the difference between base Goku and SSJGoku had to be less than 5% if there was any difference at all). In the FnF movie the regular SSJ forms where directly replaced and Goku went from Base+God to SSJB.

Wonder how it change anything about Golden Freeza stomping Frost...

If you take the anime, it happens whatever Toei wants it to happen, so it doesn't matter. Are you sure SSJB > SSJ2? Because Trunks SSJ2 (pre bullshit-rage boost) already performed better than SSJB Goku. Impossible to know what Toei had on mind when they drew that fight.

Performed better ? Yeah, right. He got stomped just as badly as Goku did. And when Goku abd Trunks actually fought, the latter lost without a single godly ki required.

It doesn't, because that interview spoke about a Base Goku that had undergone a special ritual to make him much stronger than he should be. It's like using mystic Gohan to justify that the base state has no limits.

And even before the interview, despite the statements which would imply that the training in base would be useless, Goku still trained in base form. Heck, Gohan and Vegeta even uses the SSJ despite the fact that they unlocked SSJ2 (which would imply that they reach their SSJ limits).

In Super's manga, they almost ALWAYS train in base. And I prefer to rely on what is shown to us than what we're told.

No, he not only thought that it was his limit, HE CONFIRMED that he had reached his limits. That's what he says:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

He realized his limits after a lot of harsh training with no results, and that's why he got angry with himself. It wasn't him just saying "hey, I think that today I haven't improved a lot", it was him getting frustrated at the fact that no matter what he did he couldn't reach Goku's power and then getting a rage boost that usually he could've never had.

Then...he trains in base form ! Even if there is such a thing as base form limits, these "limits" tend to be retconned every time. Remember the numerous potential unlock ? I remember those scenes. And then the protagonists keep getting stronger despite the fact they shouldn't, making these statements more like "limits breaker". Think of the SSJ that way, as their base form seem to benefit of it too.

Yes, I did the calculation already.
Firstly, Goku didn't "carry" 40 tons. He nearly broke when Kaito upgraded the weight, and had to turn into a SSJ to properly carry them. If you see Goku's performance at 100G, he was moving quite well under that pressure. With 40 tons he couldn't move at all (in fact, he couldn't even lift the weight).
And remember that Goku had a zenkay power after that (the Goku that could move well at 100G had 90k units).
Regarding him being at 2,5% of Freezer's final form, I more or less agree (I would have him a bit higher), but that's not 6 times stronger than 90K as I see it.

So, you think that Base Goku is barely stronger than 1st form Freeza ? Because I get 540k. Reminding you of the whole fight against Freeza is enough to contradict this statement:

* Vegeta was holding his own against 1st form Freeza before his 3rd Zenkai.
* The 3rd Zenkai makes him powerful enough to see Initial 4th form Freeza's movements. Even Piccolo couldn't do that.
* Piccolo could fight evely with 2nd form Freeza.
* 2nd form Frieza's power was above 1 million even before powering up.

Base Goku is way stronger than what you gives him credits for. And he only got more powerful after Freeza arc.

That's not how I see it.

Base Goku KKx10 > 4th form Freezer (initial) >>> Vegeta (3rd Zenkay) ?=? 3rd form Freezer > Piccolo > 2nd form Freezer (max) > 1 million > 2nd form Freezer (1st power-up) > 2nd form Freezer (initial) > 530k = 1st Form Freezer

So, you're telling me that Base Goku is only six times above 90k, yet you put Vegeta (3rd Zenkai) above 1 million ? Goku is stronger than Vegeta, you know ? And it was the case even before he used Kaioken.

And that's why I give him still 1/3rd of his power between the Genkidama and Goku's beating. I mean, 1/3rd of Freezer's power is still more than enough to walk, run or fly really fast, don't you think?

Then I still don't understand why you keep overrating him...

Him not being able to properly walk was just after the impact and because of the pain (Cell couldn't also properly walk after taking Vegeta's hit to the stomach, but that's only because of the immediate pain). Of course, Raditz got more injured than Freezer, but in terms of physical appearance, he seemed better. That's why I say that you can't judge how injured a character is only based on his external appearance.

Fair enough, though in my humble opinion, 2/3 is still exaggerated.

Mecha Freezer had only a fraction of the power of Namek Freezer, as it was proved by the multiple facts and quotes given during his fight.

Nonsense. Even Freezer says that he got stronger, and up until now, he had a quite accurate idea on how much power he gets or how much power he is holding back etc.

First, Gohan sensing Mecha's power:

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”

Gohan assumed Freezer could get stronger, but that wasn't the case, Freezer was already at his maximum power as we later saw when he fought against Trunks without powering up any more

Okay, first, how do you know that Freeza wasn't holding back when Gohan first sensed him ? Trunks advised him to go at full power from the start, which implies that he knows that Freeza is still not using his full power.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P9.1
Context: challenging Freeza and Cold
Trunks: “Come at me at full power right from the start. I’m not soft like Son Goku…”

Second, how does that mean that Freeza is weaker than before ? Freeza could have gotten twice as powerful as before, but holding back 50 % of his power, with Gohan noticing, and your reasoning would fail in that case. See ? You're jumping into conclusions because you're assuming that Gohan is comparing Mecha Freeza to Freeza (Namek), which isn't made clear here. The only comparison that was ever made was by Freeza, who clearly stated that he got stronger.

Mecha Freeza > Freeza (Namek). No debate is needed about that.

(and that also explains why Freezer thinks he is stronger now. In Namek he had to force his body to use all his strength, which resulted in a less effective power up and a huge stamina loss. Without a scoutter strong enough to tell him how weak he was -he was still strong enough to destroy any existing scoutter- or him sparring against his father -which would go against his character- he had no means to know how strong he was).

A whole lot of assumptions here. And assuming that what you're saying is true, how does Freeza know that he was using 50 %, then 70 % of his power without a scouter ? So according to you, he could figure out that much with no scouter, but somehow unable to figure out that he is weaker than before ? Nonsense...

He got beaten by SSJ Trunks, that had the same power than Goku in Namek.

How do you know that Trunks was as powerful as Goku on Namek ? Once again, assumption.

In terms of speed and reaction speed, he was at the same level as transformed Cold, who was weaker than Namek Freezer.

And now, you're relying on his "performance" to try to prove something. Of course Freeza would appear as weak as Cold when he is facing an opponent far stronger than he is. Heck, if anything, Cold got killed even faster than Freeza.

That means that his power was at around 1 million at best.

Nope. You're simply stating whatever you're thinking of at random to try and contradict the simple, straightforward fact that Freeza got stronger than before, and still got killed in two differents timelines, and it shows...

Freezer had been stated to be much weaker than in Namek already

The statement in question simply consisted is Gohan stating that Mecha Freeza was holding back, thus could get much stronger than he currently. I wonder how you've managed to twist this statement that much...

and it wouldn't make sense for Goku to downplay Trunks's performance (it's not as if Goku was Freezer's friend or anything like that).
Furthermore, it's true that Yadrat Goku destroyed both Mecha Freezer and Cold. Mecha Freezer wasn't a problem, even Vegeta or Piccolo could've killed him,

Yeah, right, Piccolo and Vegeta could have killed him. This is why everyone was scared shitless when Freeza landed on Earth (Piccolo and Vegeta included), with some even thinking that they were doomed. This is also why Trunks even bothered to help them.

but it's heavily implied that Goku needed the KKx20 to defeat Cold in the future timeline. The SSJ alone wasn't enough.

Heavily implied, or simply, your huge assumption ? Yeah, that's what I thought too.

Krilin is clearly not speaking of Gingertown Cell. Since they learned about Cell, they all feared what could happened if Cell had absorbed the androids.

Just so you know, I picked this statement from Gingertown Cell's section in Strength Checker. At that point, Goku admitted that he couldn't beat the androids nor Cell.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”

Then, Piccolo advised him to go in the RoSaT.

Krilin is not asking about that weaker version of Cell that at that point wasn't even a menace (they were looking for it in order to kill it).

Indeed, he isn't a threat...to Piccolo ! Everyone else would get defeated, even Goku and Vegeta. Goku even admitted it.

What scared (and excited) Goku (and the rest of them) was what could happen if Cell absorbed the androids, not Cell at his current state.

Baseless assumption that isn't even backed up by the conservation, which is about Goku powering up to be finally able to beat Cell.

And think about it for a second, does it really make much sense to ask Goku about Gingertown Cell? I mean, that's as if Krilin asked "Goku, there're currently 4 bad guys out-there with the aim of killing you. Are your scared or excited about the weakest one of them, the only one we could easily defeat as of now?".

Considering that he is already stronger than Goku, can literally suck out people's energy to get even stronger, thus possibly negate the usefulness of Goku's training and get stronger than the androids, yeah, I think he would be scared by Cell even nore than he is by the androids.

At that point, both Vegeta or Piccolo could've killed Cell if they found it.

Piccolo could. Vegeta ? Certainly not.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P8.8
Context: after Vegeta asks why Goku is letting him train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Goku: “We probably won’t be able to beat this enemy on our own. You’ve probably realized that too.”

Well, we know Kami-Piccolo's power because we know how many people Cell needed to absorb in order to become that strong.

We don't know how Cell's energy absorption works. For all we know, it could simply

In the manga base Goku is as strong as regular Base Goku from DBZ, as is proven by the fact that SSJ2 Goku is below SSJ2 Future Trunks that doesn't have any godly powers.
So unless you're saying that FnF was weaker than Namek Freezer (even Namek Freezer could fight against an untrained SSJ -who was above any base state saiyan could ever be-) in his original form that doesn't make sense.

Except that Trunks isn't untrained, far from it.

Which contradicts the DBS manga, because the scene of Bills saying that base Goku could never defeat Freezer is still there.

I've checked, and the statement doesn't exist in the manga.

 

[freezamite]

Your opinion. When you train your base state despite the fact that it should be useless according to your reasoning, I'm tempted to say that there is no such thing as "base state limit".

Useless? Dragon Ball resembles real life a lot when it comes to the logic behind training. Look, when you stop training, what happens is that you lose your physical condition and become weaker.
Gohan stoped training (even in DBZ) and despite him having become an adult, he was weaker than when he fought Cell. So of course there's a purpose on training even if you can't get stronger, unless you don't give a shit like Gohan and don't care about getting weaker.

And you know that this argument isn't good enough because Toei had its own powerscaling despite adaptating Toriyama's stuff.

What does Toei have to do with that? Are you saying that Toyotaro could've made the FnF manga differently than he did? Maybe, although I doubt it.
But even if he could've done it differently what matters is that in DBS the manga (what we are speaking about) Goku can't use his godly powers without turning into a SSJ God (red), period. And Toyotaro has followed that rule since chapter 1 of his manga, even retconning the Battle of Gods movie. So whatever it happened in the FnF saga that he skipped, what's still true is that if Goku used his godly powers there, he turned into the red SSJ God.

This is what I kept telling you. Plus, Toyotaro was already applying this mindset to his manga with the anime battles. As such, Goku and Vegeta aren't as strong against Freeza, Kyabe etc. as they were in anime/movie with forms inferior to SSJB.

No, what you're telling me is that I have to take the movie as it happened (in other words, without applying to it the logic of the DBS manga) and assume that base Goku without his godly powers could beat original form FnF Freezer. Or at least, that's what I understand you're saying, and this is simply wrong.

And yet, they are always training in base form instead of transforming even in the manga...which all but confirms this statement to be true. Heck, they did way before this statement !

Which is not a good argument because we know that if Goku stops training, he becomes weaker, so him continuing to train doesn't invalidate the multiple statements (at least 3 in the manga and 1 in the DBS manga) that speak of those limits.

I choose to speak about the manga version of that fight. Goku of course held back that much power (he could have transformed into the SSJGod or the SSJB if he wanted, but he didn't feel the necessity to do so), but in a different way than the one you imply.

If we talk about the manga, it's fine.

Wonder how it change anything about Golden Freeza stomping Frost...

That part of the discussion was about the anime, and I didn't even stated it as a fact. I only said that if we go with the anime even that would've been possible.

Performed better ? Yeah, right. He got stomped just as badly as Goku did. And when Goku abd Trunks actually fought, the latter lost without a single godly ki required.

No, he didn't. He got stomped, but while Zamatsu had no problems stopping SSJB Goku's attacks and SSJB Goku couldn't land a single hit on him, SSJ2 trunks actually "killed" him and it was then when it was revealed that Zamatsu had the immortality. I also remember SSJ2 Trunks doing not so bad against SSJRose Black, so yes, in that fight, SS2 Trunks >> SSJB Goku. It doesn't matter though, it was the anime and we all know what happens there.

despite the statements which would imply that the training in base would be useless, Goku still trained in base form. Heck, Gohan and Vegeta even uses the SSJ despite the fact that they unlocked SSJ2 (which would imply that they reach their SSJ limits).

In Super's manga, they almost ALWAYS train in base. And I prefer to rely on what is shown to us than what we're told.

And I agree on that logic (what we see >>> what we're told, unless it's told by the author himself) but as I've said before, there's a very good reason to continue to train even if your power can't increase.

Then...he trains in base form ! Even if there is such a thing as base form limits, these "limits" tend to be retconned every time. Remember the numerous potential unlock ? I remember those scenes. And then the protagonists keep getting stronger despite the fact they shouldn't, making these statements more like "limits breaker". Think of the SSJ that way, as their base form seem to benefit of it too.

Never ever in the series a limit is mentioned in the same way it's mentioned for the SSJ. For example, there're characters stating that they thought they had reached their limits after becoming stronger, but that's different.
The very definition of a SSJ is to break that limit, and unlike any other case of a character speaking about his limits, this time it's not to say "I thought I couldn't get stronger but in the end I could" but to say "I actually couldn't get stronger no matter how much I trained, so I enraged and turned into a SSJ".
Furthermore, don't you find it a bit weird that until Namek the saiyans always showed great progress in their base states, while after that saga the only progress they show is through better SSJ forms?
And it's not like Toriyama couldn't show improvements to both the base state and the SSJ if he wanted (with Goku, he had no problems on showing how strong he was becoming and at the same time how he could reach higher levels of KK), it's just that the base state had a limit as stated multiple times.

So, you think that Base Goku is barely stronger than 1st form Freeza ? Because I get 540k. Reminding you of the whole fight against Freeza is enough to contradict this statement:

* Vegeta was holding his own against 1st form Freeza before his 3rd Zenkai.
* The 3rd Zenkai makes him powerful enough to see Initial 4th form Freeza's movements. Even Piccolo couldn't do that.
* Piccolo could fight evely with 2nd form Freeza.
* 2nd form Frieza's power was above 1 million even before powering up.

Base Goku is way stronger than what you gives him credits for. And he only got more powerful after Freeza arc.

No, I think Goku never got to 500k units in his base states. Between 300k and 400k is my guess. And regarding the fight against Freezer, Goku always fought Freezer with the KKx10 activated since the beginning of the fight.
That's why a 305k or 310k Goku could fight evenly with a 3,2 million 25% power Freezer.

So, you're telling me that Base Goku is only six times above 90k, yet you put Vegeta (3rd Zenkai) above 1 million ? Goku is stronger than Vegeta, you know ? And it was the case even before he used Kaioken.

No, in fact I think he is far less than 6 times 90k (he couldn't even lift or move with the 40 tons, while he could perfectly move with the 6,2 tons that the 100G translated to). Goku wasn't stronger than Vegeta, he just was a much better fighter and knew superior techniques. He had the KKx10 activated since the very beginning of that fight.

Nonsense. Even Freezer says that he got stronger, and up until now, he had a quite accurate idea on how much power he gets or how much power he is holding back etc.

Not true. He could approximate how much power he was using (like even a normal person like us can do. I mean, I can approximate if I'm hitting something with half my strength or if I'm using it all), but when it came to "know" how strong he was, he didn't have a clue past his 3rd form.
In his weakest form, he knew exactly how powerful he was, 530.000.
In his next form, he could only approximate his strength, but he already didn't know how strong he was (there was no scoutter able to measure that) and beyond that it's obvious that he didn't have the slightest clue.

Even characters with much better capabilities than Freezer when it comes to power sensing (Vegeta in Namek, for example), aren't aware of their strength if it has suddenly changed in a way they can't perceive (for example, having a zenkay makes them stronger, but they don't know how stronger until they actually try to use all their power). The same happened to Freezer, he had a sudden change in his strength but he felt "ok", and of course, didn't bother to train or have a sparring session with his father to know his limits. The only thing he could check (the stamina loss after using all his power) improved, so he assumed he got stronger.

Okay, first, how do you know that Freeza wasn't holding back when Gohan first sensed him ? Trunks advised him to go at full power from the start, which implies that he knows that Freeza is still not using his full power.

Trunks knew nothing about Freezer's strength (not even Goku knew how strong Freezer was on Namek while fighting against him, much less Trunks that only knew about Freezer because Bulma told about him). He only advised them to go all out since the beginning because he was going to go all out since the beginning as well. Of course, seeing Freezer's reaction to Trunks transformation, it was obvious that Freezer attacked with all his strength. He just didn't have any more power in reserve, if he had, he would've used it.

Second, how does that mean that Freeza is weaker than before ? Freeza could have gotten twice as powerful as before, but holding back 50 % of his power, with Gohan noticing, and your reasoning would fail in that case. See ? You're jumping into conclusions because you're assuming that Gohan is comparing Mecha Freeza to Freeza (Namek), which isn't made clear here. The only comparison that was ever made was by Freeza, who clearly stated that he got stronger.

Firstly, that interpretation would require for Gohan some kind of super-natural power that allowed him to know the power in reserve a fighter had (not even Goku knew how much strength Freezer was hiding in Namek).
Secondly, he was answering to this:

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”

So if Gohan could somehow detect that Mecha was stronger than in Namek (and in that case, why wouldn't Yamcha be able to do the same?) his answers feels forced and retarded to say the least.

Gohan said what he said because Mecha's Ki was much lower than what he showed in Namek, and since he knew that Freezer could control his ki to a certain degree and even transform to control it even more, he simply assumed that he was hiding his strength when he came to earth. The most logic assumption, but a wrong assumption as proved later by the facts.

And regarding the facts, don't forget two important things:
1. Mecha's speed and reaction speed weren't much different than the ones of his father Cold while transformed. That alone demonstrates how weak he was.
2. Trunk's power as a SSJ wasn't any bigger than Goku's power in Namek, so the difference between Mecha and Namek Freezer was huge even when that Freezer had already lost a lot of strength because of the Genkidama and Goku's beating.

A whole lot of assumptions here. And assuming that what you're saying is true, how does Freeza know that he was using 50 %, then 70 % of his power without a scouter ? So according to you, he could figure out that much with no scouter, but somehow unable to figure out that he is weaker than before ? Nonsense...

In fact, it's the most logical explanation. Can you know (without the help of any measuring device) if you're sprinting at full speed or just running a bit fast? Even a regular human can approximate that, so it's no surprise that Freezer could do it as well.
But once sprinting at full speed, can you know at how much km/h are you running at that moment without at least a clock and a fixed distance to do the calculation afterwards? No, you won't. You may guess you're running at 20 or 21km/h but you'll need some measuring devices to know for sure how fast you really are.
The same happens to Freezer, but the difference between him and a human is that there's not a single device in the whole universe able to measure his strength. He could've made a sparring fight with his father to check his strength, but it's obvious that this never happened by how wrong both Mecha Freezer and Cold were regarding Mecha's power.

How do you know that Trunks was as powerful as Goku on Namek ? Once again, assumption.

We know that for sure for two reasons:
1. When Trunks transformed into a SSJ, Gohan thought that was his father because they had the same ki. Don't you think that if the difference was as big as you imply, Gohan would've at least noted that his father was now much stronger than in Namek?
2. When Goku comes back from Yadrat, he states that between the time it took him to recover, and the time it took him to travel from there to the earth, he didn't have much time to train. He only learned to transform into a SSJ at will and the shunkanido. We also know (from the Cell saga) that the SSJ forms can't be properly trained in the usual way, so Goku couldn't possibly be much stronger than in Namek (if he was stronger at all) and Trunks had the same power as him.

And now, you're relying on his "performance" to try to prove something. Of course Freeza would appear as weak as Cold when he is facing an opponent far stronger than he is. Heck, if anything, Cold got killed even faster than Freeza.

Of course I'm relying on his performance, why would Freezer purposely underperform to the point of not being much faster than his transformed father? If you look at that fight, both Cold and Mecha dodge Trunk's attack, and even if Mecha is a tad faster than his father, it isn't a night and day difference by any means.

Nope. You're simply stating whatever you're thinking of at random to try and contradict the simple, straightforward fact that Freeza got stronger than before, and still got killed in two differents timelines, and it shows...

At... random? I'm giving more than reasonable explanations. I mean, you saying that Gohan had developed super-natural powers that allowed him to know the strength a fighter was hiding seems far more random to me.

The statement in question simply consisted is Gohan stating that Mecha Freeza was holding back, thus could get much stronger than he currently. I wonder how you've managed to twist this statement that much...

It's not twisting, it's using basic common sense. Gohan doesn't have any super-natural power as you imply. Not even Goku, after having been fighting with Freezer for a good while, could even anticipate how much strength Freezer was hiding. And now you're telling me that Gohan suddenly has this ability?
Look, Gohan was asked if Freezer had that much power, and he of course compared the power he was feeling with the power he felt in Namek, saw that the power he was feeling was lower, and assumed Freezer was hiding his strength like he did in Namek.

Yeah, right, Piccolo and Vegeta could have killed him. This is why everyone was scared shitless when Freeza landed on Earth (Piccolo and Vegeta included), with some even thinking that they were doomed. This is also why Trunks even bothered to help them.

They were scared because they knew how powerful Freezer was, so like Gohan when he was asked, they of course assumed that Freezer was hiding his strength. If they had known Mecha Freezer didn't have any more power (like it's latter shown), of course they wouldn't be as scared of him as they were (although they should still be scared of Cold, of course).

Heavily implied, or simply, your huge assumption ? Yeah, that's what I thought too.

No, heavily implied by Goku's heart condition in both timelines, but that would be for another debate.

Just so you know, I picked this statement from Gingertown Cell's section in Strength Checker. At that point, Goku admitted that he couldn't beat the androids nor Cell.

Yes, I know in Kanzenshuu they have this in the Gingertown Cell's section, but that's just Herms interpretation on it (I don't question Herms' translations, but his interpretations are not always right). As I've said, at that point Cell wasn't even a menace and there were 3 other enemies stronger than him (2 that the z-warriors knew, as 16's power was still a mystery at that point), Krilin asking about that Cell and leaving the stronger androids out of the question and Goku giving the answer he gave when both Piccolo or Vegeta could kill that Cell simply doesn't make sense.

Indeed, he isn't a threat...to Piccolo ! Everyone else would get defeated, even Goku and Vegeta. Goku even admitted it.

No, Vegeta was also stronger. We know that at that point Cell was weaker than both #17 and #18, and SSJ Vegeta had the same power (without infinite energy, of course) than #18.
When Cell felt Vegeta's power, he was impressed he got as strong as he got.

Considering that he is already stronger than Goku, can literally suck out people's energy to get even stronger, thus possibly negate the usefulness of Goku's training and get stronger than the androids, yeah, I think he would be scared by Cell even nore than he is by the androids.

Of course, Cell's danger was in:
1. His ability to get stronger.
2. The fact that they knew that once completed he would be the best of the best of Freezer, Cold, Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta.

Cell wasn't dangerous at that point, would he had the potential to become the most dangerous being of the whole (known for the z-warriors) universe, and that's what Krilin was asking about.

Piccolo could. Vegeta ? Certainly not.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P8.8
Context: after Vegeta asks why Goku is letting him train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Goku: “We probably won’t be able to beat this enemy on our own. You’ve probably realized that too.”

Which clearly reinforces the idea that he wasn't speaking of Ginger Town Cell, who at that point could be easily beaten by Piccolo. I mean, when Gotenks Bu lost the Gotenks fusion and became Piccolo + Goten + Trunks Bu, even if at that point Goku was still much weaker than that bu, he acted like this:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”

See? Not only he isn't worried at all, he is even mocking Bu and calling him a disappointment.

There's no way that in front of two identical situations (an enemy stronger than Goku but that can be easily defeated by another z-warrior) he acts in such different ways.

We don't know how Cell's energy absorption works.

We know it. He takes the energy he absorbs and ads to his own energy. Besides him explaining it, when he absorbed Piccolo's energy Piccolo's statement leaves no doubt about that:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P1.1
Context: after regenerating his arm while fighting Cell
Piccolo: “Cell, even if I take into account the energy you sucked from my arm, I’m still more powerful than you. Brace yourself!”

That sentence leaves no doubt. There was no magic multiplier that would turn the energy of hundreds of thousands of humans into dozens of millions of units, and even Cell agrees on that.

Except that Trunks isn't untrained, far from it.

Are you saying that Trunks training put him at Gods's level? But then SSJ God Goku totally owns that Trunks in a fraction of second.

I've checked, and the statement doesn't exist in the manga.

True, in the manga it takes Goku to turn into a SSJ2 for Bills to say "now I see how you could beat Freezer", which it's the same only said in different words (I mean, the difference between base Goku and SSJ2 Goku is HUGE and wouldn't make any sense for Bills to say that if base Goku could've already beaten Freezer).

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Here's what I gathered from reading the past few posts:

1) Freeza is out of touch with his own power along with every other source that says Mecha Freeza>Namek Freeza.
2) Cell's not dangerous even though Piccolo is the only one that can fight him.
3) Vegeta is equal to #18 even though #16 said Piccolo's power rivaled both Androids. Vegeta also said everyone is easily surpassing the Super Saiyan.
4) They train in Base to not get weaker instead of stronger.
5) Goku needed Kaio-Ken x20 to take Future Cold out.
6) Base Goku never reached 1st Form Freeza's power.

Are you trying to rewrite the story, freezamite? Because all of the above makes it seem like you are.

Oh, and there was a statement on Full-Power Super Saiyans reaching their limits. Goku says both he and Gohan have "taken their bodies as far as they could", and Goku told everyone earlier that the rosat would've been a waste of time for them since there was nothing left to gain.

Bobbidi also released all of Vegeta's dormant power beyond its limits and the same Vegeta continued to train and get stronger after the Boo saga was over. That word is meaningless in Dragon Ball.

 

[Keedounan]

This debate could take forever. I prefer to stop right now, as it's pretty clear that he won't change his mind no matter our arguments.

 

[freezamite]

Here's what I gathered from reading the past few posts:

1) Freeza is out of touch with his own power along with every other source that says Mecha Freeza>Namek Freeza.

Freezer is out of touch with his NEW power like any other DB character that has had a sudden change in his power and still hasn't checked how strong he is. In fact, not only Freezer is out of touch with his powers, Cold was also clearly out of touch with them, as he clearly considered himself weaker than his son even when he proved to be able to move at comparable speeds while transformed in one of his weaker forms.
Do I also have to remind you how Vegeta reacted in front of a Goku that at that point was 3 times weaker than him? (and Vegeta was there, flabbergasted at Goku's performance and wondering if Goku had become the SSJ)?

On the other hand, you're telling me that Gohan is lying to us both when he talks about Trunks and Mecha's power, that Cold and Mecha are both crazy because BOTH of them speak as if Freezer was the strongest of the two when in reality a transformed Cold was in the same ballpark than an improved original form Freezer, that Goku lied as well about him not having much time to train and of course Trunks also lied about Goku's power and him being more or less in the same ballpark.

Too many lies for no apparent reason.

2) Cell's not dangerous even though Piccolo is the only one that can fight him.

Goku called Piccolo+Goten+Trunks Super Bu a disappointment because Gohan alone could kill him perfectly. Why would he be scared of a Cell that could've been killed by both Piccolo and Vegeta (don't forget Vegeta).

3) Vegeta is equal to #18 even though #16 said Piccolo's power rivaled both Androids. Vegeta also said everyone is easily surpassing the Super Saiyan.

Vegeta is equal to 18 because 18 fought him seriously and he could keep up with her... until he got tired.
I mean, that's not even debatable because it's stated by absolutely everyone that saw that fight:
Firstly, here #18 saying she will fight seriously when Vegeta told her to do so
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-158-index-2-page-11.html

After seeing Vegeta's performance, that's what #17 says, further confirming that #18 wasn't just playing with Vegeta:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-1.html

And of course, Vegeta got serious as well:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-12.html

See? He fought #18 at her equal level. Only Piccolo noticed Vegeta was going to lose, and not because he was weaker, but because he was losing strength while the android wasn't.
Unless you're telling me that for some obscure reason #18 didn't tell the truth and lied about going serious because she wanted to seem weaker than she was, #17 also followed her in her little comedy and/or that every z-fighter is crazy and thought Vegeta was fighting her at equal terms when according to you he was being given the beating of his life, then that doesn't compute.

On the other hand, Piccolo having a power between #17 and #18 while fighting Cell (he didn't even took his clothes off) which would already put him above Vegeta seems that impossible to you?

4) They train in Base to not get weaker instead of stronger.

Are you saying that Gohan didn't get weaker when he stopped training between the Cell and Bu sagas, even when during that time he went from being a kid to a young adult? Because that's stated in the manga as well...

5) Goku needed Kaio-Ken x20 to take Future Cold out.

Yes, how do you explain Goku's illness in the future affecting him much sooner than in the present timeline if that wasn't the case? Because in the present timeline he trained as a SSJ with Piccolo much more than he would have in case of not knowing anything about the androids, and we know that the more stress he felt, the more ill he became.

6) Base Goku never reached 1st Form Freeza's power.

Which is perfectly proven by the fact that 40 tons was too much weight for him, while 6,2 tons (100G) was not a problem with him at 90k units of strength.

Are you trying to rewrite the story, freezamite? Because all of the above makes it seem like you are.

No, I'm not. And you?

Oh, and there was a statement on Full-Power Super Saiyans reaching their limits. Goku says both he and Gohan have "taken their bodies as far as they could", and Goku told everyone earlier that the rosat would've been a waste of time for them since there was nothing left to gain.

His opinion at the time, which is completely different than what Vegeta says. Vegeta is not speculating, Vegeta is stating a fact

Bobbidi also released all of Vegeta's dormant power beyond its limits and the same Vegeta continued to train and get stronger after the Boo saga was over. That word is meaningless in Dragon Ball.

But I'm sure you know that the word "limit" can have multiple meanings depending on the context, don't you? If I say, for example, "I was only able to lift 50kg and now I'm lifting 60kg, I surpassed my limits" it's obvious that I'm speaking of the limits of what I can do at a giving moment, which is different that my absolute limits which are also "limits".
Bibidi increased Vegeta's power beyond his limits at the time, which doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't get any stronger, he wasn't speaking about the ABSOLUTE LIMITS.

When Vegeta describes how he reached the SSJ form, on the other hand, he explained how he trained and trained with no results. In fact, he isn't saying that he "surpassed his limits", but that he REALISED his limits, which mean that those limits were the absolute limits of his base state and not simply the limits he could reach at a given moment.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

1) Not really. King Cold got the best scientists to work on Freeza to revive him and make him stronger than ever. Freeza knows his own power better than anyone else does. It means what it says. Freeza made the following statements:

Freeza: “That wouldn’t satisfy me…I want to make [Goku] well acquainted with my powered-up self…”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

That means Mecha Freeza is more powerful than before, freezamite. Your rebuttal is to create more convoluted explanations to somehow prove why all of these statements are built on deception. No. Sometimes you need to just take statements for what they are. This is reiterated in countless guides, video games, the Anime, everything. All of these profiles can't be incorrect simply because you believe so. Nope. That ain't how it works, fam. Freeza can feel if his new Mecha upgrade strengthened him or weakened him. He feels strengthened by them. That means he's more powerful by default or he would've never thought he powered-up enough to potentially take on Goku by himself.

Don't understand the Gohan point at all. There's no lie. He's clearly telling everyone that what they're sensing from Freeza is hardly the extent of his power. This means Mecha Freeza was suppressed. The Super Saiyan Trunks quote is simply talking about the Chi of a Super Saiyan. We're told that Super Saiyan has a special feeling to its Chi. If it was strictly a power statement, then why didn't Gohan say anything when Base Trunks' huge Chi appeared after cutting up Cold's men? Because the Chi, despite being huge, had no familiarity to it whatsoever. Super Saiyan at least allowed Gohan to speculate that it was Goku because he had that type of Chi on Namek. Proof that Cold can transform? I'd like to see it.

2) Not comparable at all. Goku's saying he can't beat Cell or the Androids because he's weaker. Gohan is right below Goku when he's telling Boo that Gohan alone can handle him. That Boo situation is the strangest comparison I've ever heard.

Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”

So Androids>Cell>Super Saiyan Goku

3) So he lost that much power in the following panel after Piccolo said he was slowly being pushed back?

Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

By 18's own admission, Vegeta is nothing special. He's not equal to her. His blast did 0 damage to her. She even says he was helpless against her:

No.18: “He’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”

Let's see what Vegeta has to say on the matter:

Vegeta: “The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…Im-impossible…He’s just a Namekian...”
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

Can't forget #16:

No.16: “It’s on the outskirts of West City…Two gigantic powers are probably fighting…”
No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”

So no, Vegeta's not equal to #18. Not even close. #18 rivals the power Piccolo displayed against Cell, and that power alone outstripped Super Saiyan Vegeta's. Read Vegeta's quote. He says they've "easily" surpassed the Super Saiyan. Those aren't the words from someone who narrowly lost a battle because of stamina. The Super Saiyans were hella outclassed, as the quotes clearly show. You can use that one quote from Piccolo. I have a plethora of other quotes to show Vegeta isn't on 18's level at all.

4) What does that have to do with anything? Vegeta trained in both Base and Super Saiyan to enhance his power. You do realize it's stated he was training to surpass Gohan and become the strongest again, right? The point is he's training to get stronger. Not merely to stay in shape. You added that.

5) We're told why it affected him much earlier. Countless times. Trunks' time traveling changed the timing of things. I have no idea why you even mentioned Kaio-Ken x20 when Vegeta clearly said turning Super Saiyan put extra strain on Goku's heart. Gohan said the symptoms never appeared, so he avoided taking the antidote. Goku most likely became a Super Saiyan to defeat Mecha Freeza and Cold in the future. The heart virus affected him quickly because that's just the way it happened. There was no interference in the timeline to change things.

6) Ergh, no. That's not true at all. There's no consistency to it. Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't even lift Magetta at 1000 tons despite being wayyyyyy above Base Goku from Otherworld. You simply can't use numbers to reach a conclusion based on that one showing.

7) I don't add things that aren't in the story. Freeza having no clue about his new power is something you added. What this tells me (since you label it as "common sense") is that you believe your interpretation supersedes ours, AT's, every guidebook that says Mecha Freeza was stronger, the Narrator that said he was stronger, the video game bios that said he was stronger, etc. You're the only person who seems to understand this hidden meaning while all of us are clueless. Come on, man. That's basically what you're saying.

8) What? Vegeta said he reached his limits and awakened as a Super Saiyan. Goku said training in the rosat a 2nd time would be pointless torture because they (him and Gohan) have pushed their bodies to the limits. How in the world can you say one guys statement is more accurate than the other guys? Vegeta said he and Goku were "nearing their limits" before Champa's tournament and what happens when the tournament ends? They train and continue to get stronger. So the whole "his opinion at the time" is a rebuttal that can easily apply to Vegeta. You're discrediting one statement because you don't agree with it. Not surprising.

9) Yeah, no. He released all of his dormant power beyond its natural limits. That means Majin Vegeta is at a level that's above what he could naturally reach through training alone. Same with Gohan. When Dende healed Gohan, Boo made it a point to say his power didn't go up at all despite healing from the immense damage he took. These statements are there for a reason. Base Vegeta reaching a limit was his opinion at the time, and we later see that this opinion was wrong.

You know what? Let's look at this statement:

Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

He realized his limits and suddenly became a Super Saiyan. Nothing about "absolute", or anything that remotely makes this quote vastly different than the others. Simply disregarding what Goku said as "his opinion at the time" can easily be done here. Goku realized his limits in Full-Power Super Saiyan and didn't want to train again. Same thing.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

I end these debates in less than two sentences