Frost (Assault Form) vs Freeza (True Form; FnF Saga)

[freezamite]

1) Not really. King Cold got the best scientists to work on Freeza to revive him and make him stronger than ever. Freeza knows his own power better than anyone else does. It means what it says.

I wouldn't use arguments that go beyond what's stated or implied on the manga, like "Cold used the best scientists" (I mean, according to you those "best scientists" couldn't make Freezer stronger than what an earthling scientist could do with simple, random human beings, so they weren't "that good" as you try to imply to make a point").
And of course Freezer meant what he said, otherwise he wouldn't have gone to earth had he known how weak he was, it just happens that Freezer doesn't like to train or put an effort on things.
You say Freezer knows his power better than anyone else does?
He didn't even know the power he was born with which was proven when Goku told him
"You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…"
And he smiled in agreement.

There's another instance of that, when Goku quits the fight. It's Goku that realises how Freezer's power is decreasing because he can't properly fight at his 100%, and when he tells that to Freezer, he is left in disbelief.
And if you want even another clear instance of that, in FnF (in the script written by Toriyama that mostly covers the fight against Freezer) it's also Goku the one sensing Freezer's power and realising his weakness, because Freezer didn't have a clue.

That means Mecha Freeza is more powerful than before, freezamite. Your rebuttal is to create more convoluted explanations to somehow prove why all of these statements are built on deception. No. Sometimes you need to just take statements for what they are.

I take statements for what they are when there aren't other statements contradicting those. When there are contradictory statements, it's obvious that we have to use the logic to understand what is happening.
SSJ3 Goku for example, was he stronger than Fat Bu? Because when Piccolo asked about it he said he didn't think he could've won. But later he said he was stronger and that he just wanted Gotenks and Trunks to defeat Bu, which means that Goku lied at that point.

This is reiterated in countless guides, video games, the Anime, everything.

Yes, it is reiterated in nearly every DB product... EXCEPT FOR THE ONES WHERE THE AUTHOR (Toriyama) SPEAK. When Toriyama was asked about the power of the SSJ, he said Goku in Namek had the same power as when he was using the KKx10 and that the 50x multiplier was too high.
Let me ask you a question, in those guides or video games or anime... is something as basic as Freezer's injuries affecting his power even taken into account? The answer is clearly no, and that's because every time Toriyama wrote a more complex scene Toei fucked up and the Toei boyz of course followed that logic instead of Toriyama's.
Another example, how many guides are there giving Nappa only 4000 units of strength only because in the first part of his fight against Goku he got curb-stomped?

All of these profiles can't be incorrect simply because you believe so. Nope. That ain't how it works, fam. Freeza can feel if his new Mecha upgrade strengthened him or weakened him. He feels strengthened by them. That means he's more powerful by default or he would've never thought he powered-up enough to potentially take on Goku by himself.

Thing is, he may feel strengthened while still being much weaker. In Namek Freezer was injured and tired, as Mecha he was at full condition and without the drawback of having to force his body to draw his power. That makes him feel stronger, but that doesn't mean he is in fact stronger, he had to train to realise how strong he was and he obviously didn't train even for a bit.

Besides, the whole point of using Cold in his transformed form instead of his final form was to show Mecha's performance with something the readers knew. Cold was weaker than Freezer, and appeared in a form we knew how strong Freezer was, so it was pretty obvious what Toriyama intended.

Don't understand the Gohan point at all. There's no lie. He's clearly telling everyone that what they're sensing from Freeza is hardly the extent of his power. This means Mecha Freeza was suppressed.

Thing is, Gohan can't know if Mecha is hidding power or not. In fact, Mecha wasn't hidding his power as is proven later by the fact that he fought Trunks without further powering up, and Trunks gave him time to power up (Freezer was the one that launched the attack, not Trunks).
See? Again, facts >>> statements.
Gohan stated that Freezer could increase his power, but Freezer couldn't do that, we saw it and it didn't happen. Gohan simply compared Mecha's power with Freezer's power in Namek, and knowing Freezer could hid his power (in the usual way and even through transformations) he assumed that's what was happening.

The Super Saiyan Trunks quote is simply talking about the Chi of a Super Saiyan. We're told that Super Saiyan has a special feeling to its Chi. If it was strictly a power statement, then why didn't Gohan say anything when Base Trunks' huge Chi appeared after cutting up Cold's men?
Because the Chi, despite being huge, had no familiarity to it whatsoever. Super Saiyan at least allowed Gohan to speculate that it was Goku because he had that type of Chi on Namek. Proof that Cold can transform? I'd like to see it.

Trunks's Ki only increased for an instant when he cut Freezer's men (an instant short enough to make it impossible to identify), otherwise Gohan would've known from the beginning that Trunks wasn't his father.
Regarding the SSJ ki, yes, it has a different feeling than the usual Ki of a saiyan and that of course is what made Gohan say that Trunks was his father (because later in the series we know that even as SSJ they have no problem in identifying themselves), the thing is, he said he was his father with the ki he had in Namek. Don't you think that's a very big assumption if, according to you, the difference between SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku was so big that Trunks was abysmally big (like, twice as big or even more)?

Gohan stated what he stated because Trunks Ki resembled that of Namek's Goku both in type and also in size, on the other hand he would've at least said "hey it's my father! But now he is much, much stronger!".

Lastly, proofs that Cold can transform you ask? What more proof do you want than the fact that Cold is already transformed? Remember that Freezer's race doesn't transform to increase his powers (until Freezer showed us his golden form) but to hide it, which means that the strongest form is the last one.
Considering that Cold was Freezer's father, and that he appeared in a form that resembled one of his sons transformations A LOT, it's obvious that he could of course distransform to his normal original form.

2) Not comparable at all. Goku's saying he can't beat Cell or the Androids because he's weaker. Gohan is right below Goku when he's telling Boo that Gohan alone can handle him. That Boo situation is the strangest comparison I've ever heard.

Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”

So Androids>Cell>Super Saiyan Goku

I'm comparing Goku's reaction. Yes, after recovering from the illness Goku couldn't beat Cell or the Androids, but Piccolo clearly could. Why would Goku be so scared about a Cell that even Piccolo could defeat if when also facing a stronger opponent (super kami piccolo bu) he mocked him only because Gohan was more than enough?
Goku's reaction in those scenes demonstrate that it wasn't Ginger Town Cell what worried Goku (even Piccolo called Ginger Town Cell a disgrace of a monster and assumed that he was worried for no reason), but Cell's potential after having reached perfection.

3) So he lost that much power in the following panel after Piccolo said he was slowly being pushed back?

He was losing power since the very beginning of the fight. Even the part of the fight where #18 was serious and Vegeta wasn't cost Vegeta a bit amount of energy.
After Piccolo said what he said, Vegeta was already at a point of not being able to keep up, and of course, the punches he received from the android further affected his strength, and that's why a couple of panels later he was #18's toy.

Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

By 18's own admission, Vegeta is nothing special. He's not equal to her. His blast did 0 damage to her.

Of course Vegeta wasn't equal to her. Vegeta only was equal in terms of brute force, the difference being the android had unlimited energy while Vegeta didn't. That's a HUGE difference in favour of the android.
And even when Vegeta's blast did 0 damage to her, that wasn't Vegeta's best attack nor anything like that, as he was still confident on being able to beat the android.
Look at what happens when Vegeta really tries his best and that does nothing:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-112-index-2-page-4.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-112-index-2-page-5.html

Or:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-189-index-2-page-14.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-190-index-2-page-1.html

Vegeta is not Goku. When Vegeta realises he is being overpowered he doesn't smile nor anything, he trembles in fear in fact. Against #18, her resisting that attack wasn't something Vegeta felt extraordinary, it surprised him a bit because he was underestimating the android, but nothing decisive. In fact, Vegeta still fought with #18 at her same level for a bit after that ki blast, it wasn't until later that he lost too energy to continue the fight.

She even says he was helpless against her:

No.18: “He’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”

Which is true. He was helpless against #18 because he barely matched her in terms of strength and the Android had unlimited energy. I mean, can you imagine beating someone that has your strength but that unlike you he doesn't get tired, nor loses strength when he is damaged? For Vegeta that fight was completely impossible to win even if he had a comparable strength.

Let's see what Vegeta has to say on the matter:

Vegeta: “The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…Im-impossible…He’s just a Namekian...”
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

Yes, Piccolo was considerably stronger (in terms of DB) than Vegeta, no one denies that. And the androids were of course superior as well (even the weakest of them, #18, was impossible for Vegeta).

Can't forget #16:

No.16: “It’s on the outskirts of West City…Two gigantic powers are probably fighting…”
No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”

So no, Vegeta's not equal to #18. Not even close. #18 rivals the power Piccolo displayed against Cell, and that power alone outstripped Super Saiyan Vegeta's. Read Vegeta's quote. He says they've "easily" surpassed the Super Saiyan. Those aren't the words from someone who narrowly lost a battle because of stamina. The Super Saiyans were hella outclassed, as the quotes clearly show. You can use that one quote from Piccolo. I have a plethora of other quotes to show Vegeta isn't on 18's level at all.

Are you aware that #17 is stronger than #18? If Piccolo could rival them, that means that he probably was between #17 and #18 at that point.
And you say that Vegeta "narrowly" lost a battle? No, there's nothing narrow about Vegeta's defeat. You're trying very hard to undermine the importance of having unlimited stamina.
It's not only a matter of not getting tired, it's also a matter of not losing strength when you're injured. With Namek Goku and Freezer, even if Freezer was losing stamina faster than Goku, he could still have won if one attack could've injured Goku enough to compensate for that. With Vegeta and #18 that possibility wasn't there, it didn't matter how good hits Vegeta could connect, the android wouldn't be affected by them unless it was completely destroyed in a single attack.

Look, you have that fight very well explained in the manga. Everyone agrees (and when I say everyone, I mean everyone) in that Vegeta is fighting her in equal terms. Ten Shin Han agrees on it, Krilin agrees on it, Trunks agrees on it, and even Piccolo, who makes the observation that Vegeta is going to lose, agrees on it.
Even #17 agrees on it after seeing how good Vegeta is, when he says that if the other ones interfere, #18 wouldn't be able to win. The only quotes you have provided doesn't contradict what I'm saying, they just say that the androids were superior to SSJ Vegeta, which is true. It's just that for whatever reason you want Vegeta to be much weaker than he was.

4) What does that have to do with anything? Vegeta trained in both Base and Super Saiyan to enhance his power. You do realize it's stated he was training to surpass Gohan and become the strongest again, right? The point is he's training to get stronger. Not merely to stay in shape. You added that.

Vegeta wasn't even a FPSSJ in the end of the Cell saga, so of course he got stronger. But he got stronger through training his SSJ, not increasing his power in his base state. The base state has a limit, and you asked why would they train in his base state if it can't improve, and the answer is to maintain his strength. Turning into a SSJ requires an extra effort for the body, so if they just want to do basic conditioning (which can be done in base state) why would they turn into SSJ and waste energy as a result?

5) We're told why it affected him much earlier. Countless times. Trunks' time traveling changed the timing of things. I have no idea why you even mentioned Kaio-Ken x20 when Vegeta clearly said turning Super Saiyan put extra strain on Goku's heart. Gohan said the symptoms never appeared, so he avoided taking the antidote. Goku most likely became a Super Saiyan to defeat Mecha Freeza and Cold in the future. The heart virus affected him quickly because that's just the way it happened. There was no interference in the timeline to change things.

Trunks time travel affected a lot of things, but of course, there's a reason why that happened. The SSJ put a strain on Goku's body, no one denies that, but Goku used his SSJ forms countless of times to prepare to fight the androids. In fact, he turned into a SSJ much more times in the present timeline than in the future one, even if you assume that he did it against Cold, because in the present timeline they knew about the androids and that forced them to train more than what they would have trained.
Piccolo knows the power of a SSJ, and in fact he has a power that's pretty close to that of a SSJ, which means that during those 3 years Goku turned into a SSJ countless times, and still, he was less affected by the virus than in the future timeline.
So yes, it was the excessive stress on the body that made Goku vulnerable to the virus, and the only thing that could justify why in the future his body was more stressed is the Kaioh Ken, that technique that completely destroyed Goku's body even if used for just an instant.

6) Ergh, no. That's not true at all. There's no consistency to it. Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't even lift Magetta at 1000 tons despite being wayyyyyy above Base Goku from Otherworld. You simply can't use numbers to reach a conclusion based on that one showing.

In the manga there's plenty of consistency to it. In the earth, after having mastered the 10G gravity and further training for a period of time, Goku had 8k strength.
In Namek, after having mastered the 100G gravity and having taken a couple of zenkay powers more, he has 90k units of strength.
We know Goku had an extra zenkay power in Namek, and we know the base state limit is reached when you achieve the SSJ form.
We also know that 40 tons was TOO MUCH for base Goku. So yes, it may not be mathematically calculated, but it's obvious we can draw a pretty good approximation of Goku's power in his base state.

7) I don't add things that aren't in the story. Freeza having no clue about his new power is something you added.

You've added Gohan's extrasensorial powers to know how much power a character is hiding, something that only happens in that single scene in the whole series and that doesn't happen even once any more.
I'm just saying that, in the same way Freezer didn't know about his power even BEFORE having turned into Mecha, after having done that, it was a strong possibility that he wouldn't know either, as we have countless of examples of characters having drastic changes in powers and not knowing how that change affected them until they try.

What this tells me (since you label it as "common sense") is that you believe your interpretation supersedes ours, AT's, every guidebook that says Mecha Freeza was stronger

Look, AT is the one that said that SSJ Namek Goku was just about 10 times stronger than regular Namek Goku, which is what I'm saying and what is coherent with the feats and data given in the series.
I mean, you're using AT's name to contradict what AT was saying!

the video game bios that said he was stronger, etc. You're the only person who seems to understand this hidden meaning while all of us are clueless. Come on, man. That's basically what you're saying.

Am I the only one? Surely? Because I've seen in a lot of forums people saying that Mecha Freezer fought Trunks with a fraction of his power, which, in practical terms (Mecha being defeated while using a fraction of his power or him being defeated because he had a fraction of his power doesn't change anything power-scaling wise) it's more or less the same.
And remember, you're the one contradicting what Akira Toriyama said in an interview, not me. I usually don't use interviews to prove my points as the manga is pretty clear about that, but since you want to use videogames or the anime, then the author's direct statement on the subject should clear any doubt more than anything else.

8) What? Vegeta said he reached his limits and awakened as a Super Saiyan. Goku said training in the rosat a 2nd time would be pointless torture because they (him and Gohan) have pushed their bodies to the limits. How in the world can you say one guys statement is more accurate than the other guys? Vegeta said he and Goku were "nearing their limits" before Champa's tournament and what happens when the tournament ends? They train and continue to get stronger. So the whole "his opinion at the time" is a rebuttal that can easily apply to Vegeta. You're discrediting one statement because you don't agree with it. Not surprising.

This is the manga of DB, what happens in a different manga isn't a good argument (even more when they have different conditions like the godly powers absorbed when they make those claims).
And where is the difference you ask? The DIFFERENCE is that both Goku and Vegeta in DBS are SPECULATING. They assume they're close to their limits, but it's just that, an assumption. Both Goku and Vegeta in your examples say that BEFORE trying to train his bodies even further.
On the other hand, what Vegeta says is different. Vegeta says that his power reached a limit, that he continued to train with no results and after some time (and with Vegeta's personality, that probably was a lot of time) he realised that he couldn't go further, and that made him enrage an turn into a SSJ.
The difference is that Vegeta isn't speculating, Vegeta is CONFIRMING that he reached his limits.

9) Yeah, no. He released all of his dormant power beyond its natural limits. That means Majin Vegeta is at a level that's above what he could naturally reach through training alone. Same with Gohan. When Dende healed Gohan, Boo made it a point to say his power didn't go up at all despite healing from the immense damage he took. These statements are there for a reason. Base Vegeta reaching a limit was his opinion at the time, and we later see that this opinion was wrong.

1st: Bibidi says nothing about Vegeta's "natural" limits. That's something you've added to make your point. He just says he will release his dormant power beyond his limits, which can be interpreted as Vegeta's actual limits at that moment, or Vegeta's "natural/absolute" limits. Of course, since Vegeta still got stronger in DBS and under Toriyama's supervision, it's obvious which is the correct interpretation. You adding that "natural" word on the sentence to make your point also prove that you're more interested in being right at any cost (even at the cost of the truth) than in having a fair discussion.

2nd: Yes, Mystic Gohan really broke his natural limits, the elder kaioshin insisted on that when he explained his powers. And of course, Mystic Gohan never turned any stronger than he was at that point (in fact, he became much weaker in DBS).

Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

He realized his limits and suddenly became a Super Saiyan. Nothing about "absolute", or anything that remotely makes this quote vastly different than the others. Simply disregarding what Goku said as "his opinion at the time" can easily be done here. Goku realized his limits in Full-Power Super Saiyan and didn't want to train again. Same thing.

So you think that one day the thought "I reached my limits" crossed Vegeta's head for no apparent reason and he just turned into a SSJ?
No, that's not a valid interpretation at all.
He says he went through stupendous training over and over again... and that EVENTUALLY he realised his limits. That means that Vegeta trained a lot, he saw little to no improvement, but still continued to train a lot. And after a lot of training with no result, he realised his limits, then enraged and turned into a SSJ.
That wasn't Vegeta ending one of his trainings after having increased his strength (like Goku after the RoSAT) and saying "hmmm I may be in my limits" and then plufff, him suddenly becoming a SSJ.
No, that was Vegeta training with no results for a lot of time, getting frustrated as he couldn't reach what Goku achieved, and in the utmost height of his desperation becoming so enraged with himself that he achieved what normally only someone with a kind heart can achieve, a rage boost that allowed him to transform into a SSJ.

Of course it's different, it's completely different in fact.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

-That has nothing to do with him not knowing his power. Goku's talking about Freeza fighting at his best and having no regrets as a WARRIOR. He smiled because Goku said he would've just destroyed the planet if he didn't care to fight at his best. Freeza was confident that 100% of his power would be enough to defeat Goku, so clearly he has an understanding of what his power can do.

-The stamina drain does not help your point because the same Freeza knew exactly how much power he was utilizing in both instances before it took place. The FnF arc especially. Freeza knew he powered-up enough in his Final Form to go against a far more powerful Goku than even he expected to go against. He obviously knew how strong he was there, so I don't really understand your point.

-You clearly don't take statements for what they are because Mecha Freeza being stronger is stated more than once by Freeza himself. In case you didn't know, AT wrote those statements. It's a very clear point that doesn't need to be complicated. Pretty hilarious how you seem to think you know more than everyone else, including actual professionals on the matter. Mecha Freeza is stronger. Stated in every single piece of media ever. Freeza not being stronger? Stated nowhere. You obviously misinterpreted that AT statement because he said he drew Super Saiyan with the intention of making it a 10x increase. This was obviously incorrect because Super Saiyan>>>>>Kaio-Ken x20. Therefore, Super Saiyan being a 50 fold increase is perfectly fine.

-No drawback? Where's it stated that his Mecha power eliminated the stamina weakness? The only thing stated is that the Mecha parts made him more powerful than before. Do you understand what this means? It's a clear statement indicating that his overall power has went up. This is stated twice. It's a fact. You're picking and choosing what stands as fact and what doesn't. That's silly. The Cold point is equally silly because all of his hopes were placed in Trunks' sword being the source of his power. If he could've transformed to defeat Trunks, he would've. Instead, he had to rely on cheap tricks to win. Cold has no transformation.

-Gohan can know because Freeza never fought or powered-up. Gohan's statement was based on the fact that Freeza can power-up. That's what "“This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger" actually means. Freeza never "fought" anyone. He shot a generic Chi-blast and proceeded to get sliced up. There was no power-up that ever took place. What you're claiming is that line was, once again, another attempt to fool the readers by AT.

-No. It was stated that a huge Chi appeared and a bunch of other Chi's disappeared. There was nothing brief about it. The power was sensed and no one knew who it was. Nothing about being too short to identify. You added that. Gohan didn't say anything because it was a completely unknown Chi that had no familiarity to it. You're still missing the point. It's not a power statement. Straight from Herms:

Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

-Gohan said what he said because it was the Chi of a Super Saiyan, not because it was similar in both size and type. You expect things to be stated a certain way when it's convenient, but this same logic doesn't apply when it's pointed out to you in various other instances where you think things have a certain meaning. Come on now.

-Goku isn't Piccolo. What Piccolo can do to Cell is irrelevant to Goku. The emphasis is on Goku's power in comparison to the Androids and Cell. He can't beat the Androids or Cell. It's a very clear statement. Cell's potential was never mentioned in any of the quotes made by Goku.

-It doesn't matter if Vegeta was losing stamina since the beginning because he was still weaker than her. Wanna know how an actual equal battle looks? Read Piccolo Vs #17. Piccolo did much better against #17 (someone who actually stated he was equal to him) than Vegeta did against someone he was supposedly equal to. Both have limited stamina, but Vegeta did far worse. Why? Because unlike the Vegeta battle, Piccolo was actually equal to his opponent. Vegeta wasn't equal to #18 in power or anything. Piccolo was equal to #17 in power. Vegeta got destroyed. Piccolo didn't. #18 had the advantage over Vegeta in power and stamina. #17 had the advantage in stamina only. All of this is stated and shown.

-Vegeta was helpless because he was weaker and outmatched in stamina. Piccolo wasn't helpless despite having the disadvantage against #17 in stamina, so that reasoning doesn't make any sense. If someone as arrogant as #17 can admit Piccolo is his equal, then it means what it says. #18 thinks Vegeta and Goku are both pathetic because they're not on her level.

-Like I said, Gohan said the symptoms never appeared when they were training for the Androids. Using Super Saiyan there didn't matter because the heart virus wasn't a factor. When the symptoms began to appear (after flying to the battlefield), Super Saiyan put extra strain on him. There's no need to speculate Kaio-Ken x20 was used at any point beyond the Freeza saga.

-Piccolo's power was large enough to rival both Androids. It means there's not a significant difference between #17 and #18, or #16 would've just said Piccolo rivaled #17 only to make it even more clear. That isn't stated, though. Piccolo rivals both Androids and Vegeta is a weakling to that same Piccolo. Vegeta doesn't rival #18. He says all of them easily surpassed the Super Saiyan. That means Piccolo, Androids, and Cell are >Super Saiyans.

-#17 said #18 probably wouldn't be able to handle all of them. Vegeta said they were "absolutely useless" and would stand no chance against #18.

Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

So who's accurate? The guy who actually knows the power of everyone that arrived? Or the guy who speculates that she probably won't be able to handle them?

-Vegeta's training to get stronger. Both him and Gohan are shown training in Base for the purpose of getting stronger. Goku was shown training in Base as well despite Super Saiyan having no strain on him, so that reasoning doesn't apply. They can get stronger in every form when they train in it.

-I didn't add anything. What was stated was obvious. Gohan said he can get way stronger because he clearly was at a lesser level than he was on Namek. Freeza didn't power-up or fight when the statement was made. What does this mean? That Mecha Freeza was suppressed. There's no possibility that he didn't know the Mecha upgrade made him stronger. It's stated twice.

-Lol, now you want to play the semantics game. Bobbidi took Vegeta's dormant power and released it beyond his limits. Limits mean what they mean. That's the extent of their potential. Vegeta was taken beyond that, so he logically wouldn't be able to get stronger. The Gohan statement is literally the same thing, except Old Kaioshin says he can go far far above the limits. Both statements are talking about going beyond their limits, so there's no reason to pretend it doesn't mean what it says.

-Goku said that he and Gohan have taken their bodies as far as they could, which is in line with what he said about not needing the rosat a 2nd time because it's torture moreso than training. Apply that same logic to what Vegeta said in the Android saga and there's no difference. You can't say Vegeta's statement is the only factual one and ignore Goku's. Both statements revolve around them hitting their limits. You just want to pretend the other is more valid than the other. That's being a hypocrite and assuming your interpretation is the only one that's reasonable. It isn't.

-What's more, you're even misinterpreting the statement. Vegeta went through long training and eventually reached his limits. That doesn't mean he trained with no results (saying he got no stronger in Base is lol when the results he wanted was Super Saiyan) at all. What it means is he realized he couldn't go any further after a certain point, got pissed, and awakened as a Super Saiyan. Simple. And that interpretation actually makes sense because it doesn't need to assume everyone else (Goku) is incorrect when limits are being brought up.

-Goku said he and Gohan wouldn't gain anything from a 2nd session in the rosat, and Goku says they've come as far as they could. It isn't his opinion at the time anymore than Vegeta's realization was his opinion at the time. That's called being objective. Stop cherry picking which statements count as evidence and what counts as opinion. It's very unreasonable.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

This debate could take forever. I prefer to stop right now, as it's pretty clear that he won't change his mind no matter our arguments.

Yeah, you're most likely right. I should've taken the hint a long time ago

Goku and Gohan couldn't gain anything further from the rosat. They were at their limits. The last option was Gohan's dormant power. Nothing more, nothing less. Temporary limits have been a thing since Dragon Ball. I have no idea why there's suddenly an unwritten rule on what it stands for now.

 

[freezamite]

-That has nothing to do with him not knowing his power. Goku's talking about Freeza fighting at his best and having no regrets as a WARRIOR. He smiled because Goku said he would've just destroyed the planet if he didn't care to fight at his best. Freeza was confident that 100% of his power would be enough to defeat Goku, so clearly he has an understanding of what his power can do.

Goku is talking about him not having regrets as a warrior. Regarding Freezer, what he says is that he wanted to check what he could do when fighting at maximum power. Freezer had never used his 100% of strength before, he didn't know the extent of his power.

-The stamina drain does not help your point because the same Freeza knew exactly how much power he was utilizing in both instances before it took place. The FnF arc especially. Freeza knew he powered-up enough in his Final Form to go against a far more powerful Goku than even he expected to go against. He obviously knew how strong he was there, so I don't really understand your point.

Knowing how much power you're utilising is something even a normal human can do. Even you or me could know if we are fighting at our maximum strength or just having a bit of fun.
And yes, in FnF Freezer knew the extent of his power, but that's precisely because for the first time in his life, he had trained! In other words, since he had never trained before, he never had the chance to measure his real power.

-You clearly don't take statements for what they are because Mecha Freeza being stronger is stated more than once by Freeza himself. In case you didn't know, AT wrote those statements.

The same Akira Toriyama that made Gohan say that Freezer should have a lot of hidden power even when he didn't have it.
It's also that same Akira Toriyama that made transformed Cold perform at the same level than Mecha Freezer.
And the same Akira Toriyama that stated twice that Trunks wasn't stronger than Namek Goku.
The scene is more complex than what you're saying.

Pretty hilarious how you seem to think you know more than everyone else, including actual professionals on the matter.

You mean the same professionals that give Nappa 4000 units of strength? Of course I know more than those "professionals". I like DB, while they were simply paid to make a quick guide about a series to earn more money...

Mecha Freeza is stronger. Stated in every single piece of media ever. Freeza not being stronger? Stated nowhere.

Nowhere, except in the manga.

You obviously misinterpreted that AT statement because he said he drew Super Saiyan with the intention of making it a 10x increase. This was obviously incorrect because Super Saiyan>>>>>Kaio-Ken x20. Therefore, Super Saiyan being a 50 fold increase is perfectly fine.

And this is where everything becomes surreal. So the anime or a random videogame stating something is a proof of what you're saying despite the manga presenting facts that state the opposite (but those facts doesn't matter because of reasons), and suddenly the poor Akira Toriyama was retarded and while he wanted to drew SSJ Goku as a 10x increase over his previous form his pen slipped a bit and the SSJ ended being 50 times stronger.
Of course, that 50x multiplier contradicting absolutely every single internal rule of the manga (difference in power needed to curbstomp, injuries not affecting Freezer even when it's stated) doesn't matter either.
Look, as I said, I'm not interested on discussing about the anime or your favourite videogame. I'm interested on discussing about the manga and the manga alone.

-No drawback? Where's it stated that his Mecha power eliminated the stamina weakness?

Maybe in the fact that he was already going at his 100%? Why are you taking every single piece of dialogue literally and out of context? And if you do that, why aren't you saying that Mecha Freezer was stronger than Trunks when Mecha Freezer says that he is "the strongest in the whole universe"?

The only thing stated is that the Mecha parts made him more powerful than before. Do you understand what this means? It's a clear statement indicating that his overall power has went up. This is stated twice. It's a fact.

No, it's not a fact, it's a statement. It would be a fact if nothing else contradicted it, or what contradicted it proved to be wrong. But Mecha being trashed by someone that had the same power of SSJ Goku in Namek, or Gohan assuming Mecha was hidding a lot of strength despite that not being what happened or transformed Cold performing at the same level of Mecha demonstrate that Freezer was wrong (and Cold as well).
The statements and facts against Freezer's own statement have much more weight than what Freezer says, because as I've said, facts > subjective statements.

You're picking and choosing what stands as fact and what doesn't. That's silly. The Cold point is equally silly because all of his hopes were placed in Trunks' sword being the source of his power. If he could've transformed to defeat Trunks, he would've. Instead, he had to rely on cheap tricks to win. Cold has no transformation.

COLD WAS TRANSFORMED ALREADY, the Freezer race transforms in order to lower his power. The reason Cold didn't use his strongest form is easy to understand:
1. He thought Mecha was stronger than him even after dis-transforming. So if Mecha had been defeated, he obviously assumed that he had no chance of winning in a fair fight.
2. He assumed it was Trunks' sword what allowed him to defeat Freezer so easily, and his strategy was to attack Trunks with Trunks' own sword. For that to work, the last thing he could do is to power up. I mean, if the "that's a good sword, let me see it" excuse wasn't cheap enough, imagine if Cold powered up to his max before asking for Trunk's sword. For Cold, at that point, transforming had no purpose.

But it's obvious he could transform, in fact, he was already transformed. Don't you remember that Freezeer's race's original form is the strongest one? I don't like speaking of other mangas, but even Frost who wasn't from the Cold clan (even if he was from the same race) had the same forms, and that character was created by Akira Toriyama (like kuriza, also from a different manga)...

-Gohan can know because Freeza never fought or powered-up. Gohan's statement was based on the fact that Freeza can power-up. That's what "“This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger" actually means. Freeza never "fought" anyone. He shot a generic Chi-blast and proceeded to get sliced up. There was no power-up that ever took place. What you're claiming is that line was, once again, another attempt to fool the readers by AT.

To fool the readers? No, it wasn't to fool the readers, it was to contextualise Freezer's power and why he was going to be defeated by someone that had the same power as SSJ Namek Goku.
And your explanation doesn't make much sense, because if at that point Freezer was (according to you) much stronger than before and Gohan was sensing a chi much bigger than the one he felt in Namek, what sense does it make for him to say what he said? Mecha's Ki was much lower than in Namek, that's why Gohan made the assumption Freezer could increase his power much more even when that wasn't the case.

-No. It was stated that a huge Chi appeared and a bunch of other Chi's disappeared. There was nothing brief about it. The power was sensed and no one knew who it was. Nothing about being too short to identify. You added that. Gohan didn't say anything because it was a completely unknown Chi that had no familiarity to it. You're still missing the point. It's not a power statement. Straight from Herms:

Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

If it hadn't been brief, Gohan would've known before Trunks turned into a SSJ that this man wasn't his father.
Then, regarding the statement, saying "the same ki" in that context also implies it being the same amount (besides other things), because Gohan was mistaking him with what he saw from Goku in Namek. I mean, you don't see a plastic ferrari car at 1/32 scale besides a real Ferrari and say "look, it's the same car!".
If SSJ Trunks had been much stronger than Namek Goku, Gohan would've stated it. Maybe he would've still thought Trunks was his father, but he would've said something like "it's my father, it's the same ki than in Namek, but it has become much stronger now!". Instead, he said Trunks had "the same ki" his father had in Namek, period.
But not only that, even Goku himself stated that he hadn't had much time to train in Yadrat and that the only thing he could do was learning to teleport, so...

-Gohan said what he said because it was the Chi of a Super Saiyan, not because it was similar in both size and type. You expect things to be stated a certain way when it's convenient, but this same logic doesn't apply when it's pointed out to you in various other instances where you think things have a certain meaning. Come on now.

??? I always expect things to be stated in the same way. Hey, I'm not saying that Freezer wasn't stating that he was stronger, that was pretty clear. What I'm saying is that Freezer's statement was wrong, which is different.
In that case, for Gohan to hide such vital information (according to you, he was feeling a much greater Ki and he said nothing about it) makes no sense. And Goku stating that he didn't have much time to train in Yadrat and still demonstrating that he was as strong as Trunks as a SSJ also reinforces this idea.

On the other hand, you argue that Mecha Freezer suddenly trained with his father even when it wasn't in his character to train (and in Toriyama's script for FnF he stated that he had never trained once before). His father, despite being of the same race and his direct ascendant, didn't have the same transformations than his son. Of course, Gohan can suddenly know how power is a fighter hiding from kilometers of distance, but that ability burned his brain because in front of a much bigger Ki than the one he felt in Namek with his father he just says "guys, that's my father" -heck, didn't he realise that his fellow fighters were all scared and that Goku having become much, much stronger would be a big relieve for them? Or maybe he enjoyed torturing his friends and hid that information while he was laughing at them-.
Gohan of course wasn't the only one being retarded, Freezer's reparations hadn't gone well with his brain and despite him being absolutely afraid of the SSJs he still attacked Trunks with a fraction of his strength.

-Goku isn't Piccolo. What Piccolo can do to Cell is irrelevant to Goku. The emphasis is on Goku's power in comparison to the Androids and Cell. He can't beat the Androids or Cell. It's a very clear statement. Cell's potential was never mentioned in any of the quotes made by Goku.

As far as I know Goku wasn't Gohan either, but he wasn't afraid of Bu because Gohan was simply much stronger. Why would he be afraid of that Cell that was desperately hidding from Piccolo and that even Vegeta could kill?
And Krilin's question of course wasn't about Ginger Town Cell, otherwise he would've included the androids, but then he couldn't have said anything about Freezer since the androids were weaker.

-It doesn't matter if Vegeta was losing stamina since the beginning because he was still weaker than her. Wanna know how an actual equal battle looks? Read Piccolo Vs #17. Piccolo did much better against #17 (someone who actually stated he was equal to him) than Vegeta did against someone he was supposedly equal to.

Read Goku vs Freezer round 1, and you'll see how that resembles Vegeta vs #18 before Vegeta gets tired a lot. Both fighters connect some hits, none of them does serious damage to the other.
Toriyama wanted to hype the Androids in the fight with Vegeta, so even if they had the same power, Toriyama opted for a fight where none of them would injury the other one despite being equals.
In the fight with #17, it was Piccolo the one being hyped (he still hadn't had the opportunity to show how strong he was) so he designed a more brutal fight. By the way, Piccolo was a bit stronger than #17, which would also explain why he performed better:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P5.5-7
Piccolo: “Your speed is pretty good...But your punch lacks weight.”
No.17: "What? Say, who do you think you’re talking to? I’m Android No.17, the strongest in history…”

Both have limited stamina, but Vegeta did far worse. Why? Because unlike the Vegeta battle, Piccolo was actually equal to his opponent. Vegeta wasn't equal to #18 in power or anything.

Again, you're using assumptions to go against stated facts. #18 fought seriously against Vegeta, and Vegeta managed to fight her evenly until he lost strength. Piccolo, as stated by himself, was a bit stronger than #17, that's why he lasted longer.

Piccolo was equal to #17 in power. Vegeta got destroyed. Piccolo didn't. #18 had the advantage over Vegeta in power and stamina. #17 had the advantage in stamina only. All of this is stated and shown.

If Cell hadn't stopped the fight, Piccolo was going to be as destroyed as Vegeta against #18. If #18 had any advantage in power over Vegeta, why were Trunks and the others saying what they said?
Even #17 agreed in that with some help they could've destroyed #18, and considering that everyone else was much weaker than Vegeta, that forcibly means that Vegeta was at #18 levels of power.

-Vegeta was helpless because he was weaker and outmatched in stamina. Piccolo wasn't helpless despite having the disadvantage against #17 in stamina, so that reasoning doesn't make any sense.

Piccolo wasn't helpless? If Cell hadn't entered in the scene, Piccolo would've lasted just a few minutes more.

If someone as arrogant as #17 can admit Piccolo is his equal, then it means what it says. #18 thinks Vegeta and Goku are both pathetic because they're not on her level.

Not pathetic, but nothing special. By the way, that's why #17 said about SSJ Vegeta:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P6.3-4
Context: after Vegeta fights No.18 for awhile
No.17: “I’m surprised…His strength greatly differs from what Doctor Gero’s data said, doesn’t it? Vegeta, huh?...He’s an incredible guy.”

Different characters, different personalities, different reactions in front of the same situation.

-Like I said, Gohan said the symptoms never appeared when they were training for the Androids. Using Super Saiyan there didn't matter because the heart virus wasn't a factor. When the symptoms began to appear (after flying to the battlefield), Super Saiyan put extra strain on him. There's no need to speculate Kaio-Ken x20 was used at any point beyond the Freeza saga.

When the symptoms appear, it means that the illness has already spread. There's a reason the same illness affected Goku more in the future timeline, and the reason behind it was made pretty obvious when the SSJ stress accelerated it all.

-Piccolo's power was large enough to rival both Androids. It means there's not a significant difference between #17 and #18, or #16 would've just said Piccolo rivaled #17 only to make it even more clear. That isn't stated, though. Piccolo rivals both Androids and Vegeta is a weakling to that same Piccolo. Vegeta doesn't rival #18. He says all of them easily surpassed the Super Saiyan. That means Piccolo, Androids, and Cell are >Super Saiyans.

Again, your assumptions against the facts. Vegeta wasn't a "weakling" against that Piccolo, he was certainly weaker, and Piccolo could get even stronger, but compared to ginger town Piccolo the difference with SSJ Vegeta wasn't as big (Vegeta was surprised because a Namekian had surpassed him, not because the difference was night and day huge like you imply).
Again, SSJ Vegeta = #18 < Piccolo < #17 fills that bill perfectly.

-#17 said #18 probably wouldn't be able to handle all of them. Vegeta said they were "absolutely useless" and would stand no chance against #18.

Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

So who's accurate? The guy who actually knows the power of everyone that arrived? Or the guy who speculates that she probably won't be able to handle them?

You mean Vegeta, the most arrogant prick of the series, the same guy Trunks didn't want to surpass in public because he thought Vegeta couldn't take it (even if at the end Trunks didn't surpass Vegeta?).
#17 said what he said based on Vegeta's performance, it doesn't matter if he didn't know Piccolo's power, because he had already seen what Trunks was capable of before. So, based on what he saw of Vegeta and Trunks (the data he had about Piccolo was completely outdated) he thought that #18 wouldn't be able to take them all. That has more weight than Vegeta's arrogant statement, of course (the same Vegeta that was convinced he could win against #18, don't forget it).

-Vegeta's training to get stronger. Both him and Gohan are shown training in Base for the purpose of getting stronger. Goku was shown training in Base as well despite Super Saiyan having no strain on him, so that reasoning doesn't apply. They can get stronger in every form when they train in it.

You're again making assumptions. A training has lots of aspects, from warming up to mental training to whatever AT had shown us during the series. Most of those trainings doesn't require to be a SSJ to be effective, and that doesn't mean that everything that's said about the limits suddenly is invalid.
Have you even a single PROOF that they can become stronger in their base states? Goku's 40 tons feat already proved you wrong, but be my guest, show me a single instance of base Vegeta or base Goku in the Bu saga that prove they're much stronger than in the Namek saga. A single feat. Because I've already provided a feat that proves my point, a feat an multiple statements that aren't contradicted anywhere...

-Gohan said he can get way stronger because he clearly was at a lesser level than he was on Namek. Freeza didn't power-up or fight when the statement was made. What does this mean? That Mecha Freeza was suppressed. There's no possibility that he didn't know the Mecha upgrade made him stronger. It's stated twice.

Finally we can agree on something! And tell me, why didn't Freezer fight with all his strength against Trunks if he was suppressed, as you say?
As I've said, there are multiple reasons that could justify Freezer's wrong assumption, you have to still explain why would Freezer fight a SSJ without all of his strength when he was scared as shit of them.

-Lol, now you want to play the semantics game. Bobbidi took Vegeta's dormant power and released it beyond his limits. Limits mean what they mean. That's the extent of their potential.

It's you who played with the semantics, adding a "natural" that changed the meaning of the sentence. No, limits in that context simply meant the limits of what Vegeta could actually do at that moment. That's also a limit, and you know it, that's why you added the "natural" word in the sentence to try to prove your point.

The Gohan statement is literally the same thing, except Old Kaioshin says he can go far far above the limits. Both statements are talking about going beyond their limits, so there's no reason to pretend it doesn't mean what it says.

Yes, both statements use the same expression, it's the context that make them different. Same words, different context, different meaning. That's what I'm saying.

-Goku said that he and Gohan have taken their bodies as far as they could, which is in line with what he said about not needing the rosat a 2nd time because it's torture moreso than training. Apply that same logic to what Vegeta said in the Android saga and there's no difference. You can't say Vegeta's statement is the only factual one and ignore Goku's. Both statements revolve around them hitting their limits. You just want to pretend the other is more valid than the other. That's being a hypocrite and assuming your interpretation is the only one that's reasonable. It isn't.

False. Goku said that entering the RoSAT again would stress his body a lot and that this would be torture more than training, that has nothing to do with him reaching his limits. You're spinning Goku's words to make your point.
What Goku says it's a pretty basic thing when training, if you over do it, you can get injured and even get in worse condition than you were before.

Goku simply came out of the RoSAT, assumed going there would do them no good, and so he didn't enter it again.
That has nothing to do with Vegeta training with no results for days or even months until he became so enraged with himself that he turned into a SSJ.

Don't pretend you can't see the difference, because the difference is obvious. Furthermore, Goku continued to train until the Cell games outside of the RoSAT, and he became stronger (as a SSJ) in the bu saga, also learning new transformations (SSJ2 and SSJ3) in the process.

-Vegeta went through long training and eventually reached his limits. That doesn't mean he trained with no results (saying he got no stronger in Base is lol when the results he wanted was Super Saiyan) at all. What it means is he realized he couldn't go any further after a certain point, got pissed, and awakened as a Super Saiyan. Simple. And that interpretation actually makes sense because it doesn't need to assume everyone else (Goku) is incorrect when limits are being brought up.

To realise his limits and get desperate, he had to train with no results (and not once or twice, but a lot more than that). Firstly, one think is reaching your limits, and another think is realising you've reached your limits. In Vegeta's case, he had no one to fight, no device to check his strength, so he probably took a time to realise that. And from then on, he still trained a lot with no results in order to become desperate enough to have a rage boost.

-Goku said he and Gohan wouldn't gain anything from a 2nd session in the rosat, and Goku says they've come as far as they could. It isn't his opinion at the time anymore than Vegeta's realization was his opinion at the time. That's called being objective. Stop cherry picking which statements count as evidence and what counts as opinion. It's very unreasonable.

No, he said they wouldn't gain from a 2nd session in the RoSAT, but nothing about they having come as far as their bodies would allow. In fact, he is saying that the RoSAT put too much strain on their bodies, and that since they already achieved what they wanted to achieve, they wouldn't enter the RoSAT a second time.
They never spoke about any limits there.

 

[freezamite]

-That has nothing to do with him not knowing his power. Goku's talking about Freeza fighting at his best and having no regrets as a WARRIOR. He smiled because Goku said he would've just destroyed the planet if he didn't care to fight at his best. Freeza was confident that 100% of his power would be enough to defeat Goku, so clearly he has an understanding of what his power can do.

Goku is talking about him not having regrets as a warrior. Regarding Freezer, what he says is that he wanted to check what he could do when fighting at maximum power. Freezer had never used his 100% of strength before, he didn't know the extent of his power.

-The stamina drain does not help your point because the same Freeza knew exactly how much power he was utilizing in both instances before it took place. The FnF arc especially. Freeza knew he powered-up enough in his Final Form to go against a far more powerful Goku than even he expected to go against. He obviously knew how strong he was there, so I don't really understand your point.

Knowing how much power you're utilising is something even a normal human can do. Even you or me could know if we are fighting at our maximum strength or just having a bit of fun.
And yes, in FnF Freezer knew the extent of his power, but that's precisely because for the first time in his life, he had trained! In other words, since he had never trained before, he never had the chance to measure his real power.

-You clearly don't take statements for what they are because Mecha Freeza being stronger is stated more than once by Freeza himself. In case you didn't know, AT wrote those statements.

The same Akira Toriyama that made Gohan say that Freezer should have a lot of hidden power even when he didn't have it.
It's also that same Akira Toriyama that made transformed Cold perform at the same level than Mecha Freezer.
And the same Akira Toriyama that stated twice that Trunks wasn't stronger than Namek Goku.
The scene is more complex than what you're saying.

Pretty hilarious how you seem to think you know more than everyone else, including actual professionals on the matter.

You mean the same professionals that give Nappa 4000 units of strength? Of course I know more than those "professionals". I like DB, while they were simply paid to make a quick guide about a series to earn more money...

Mecha Freeza is stronger. Stated in every single piece of media ever. Freeza not being stronger? Stated nowhere.

Nowhere, except in the manga.

You obviously misinterpreted that AT statement because he said he drew Super Saiyan with the intention of making it a 10x increase. This was obviously incorrect because Super Saiyan>>>>>Kaio-Ken x20. Therefore, Super Saiyan being a 50 fold increase is perfectly fine.

And this is where everything becomes surreal. So the anime or a random videogame stating something is a proof of what you're saying despite the manga presenting facts that state the opposite (but those facts doesn't matter because of reasons), and suddenly the poor Akira Toriyama was retarded and while he wanted to drew SSJ Goku as a 10x increase over his previous form his pen slipped a bit and the SSJ ended being 50 times stronger.
Of course, that 50x multiplier contradicting absolutely every single internal rule of the manga (difference in power needed to curbstomp, injuries not affecting Freezer even when it's stated) doesn't matter either.
Look, as I said, I'm not interested on discussing about the anime or your favourite videogame. I'm interested on discussing about the manga and the manga alone.

-No drawback? Where's it stated that his Mecha power eliminated the stamina weakness?

Maybe in the fact that he was already going at his 100%? Why are you taking every single piece of dialogue literally and out of context? And if you do that, why aren't you saying that Mecha Freezer was stronger than Trunks when Mecha Freezer says that he is "the strongest in the whole universe"?

The only thing stated is that the Mecha parts made him more powerful than before. Do you understand what this means? It's a clear statement indicating that his overall power has went up. This is stated twice. It's a fact.

No, it's not a fact, it's a statement. It would be a fact if nothing else contradicted it, or what contradicted it proved to be wrong. But Mecha being trashed by someone that had the same power of SSJ Goku in Namek, or Gohan assuming Mecha was hidding a lot of strength despite that not being what happened or transformed Cold performing at the same level of Mecha demonstrate that Freezer was wrong (and Cold as well).
The statements and facts against Freezer's own statement have much more weight than what Freezer says, because as I've said, facts > subjective statements.

You're picking and choosing what stands as fact and what doesn't. That's silly. The Cold point is equally silly because all of his hopes were placed in Trunks' sword being the source of his power. If he could've transformed to defeat Trunks, he would've. Instead, he had to rely on cheap tricks to win. Cold has no transformation.

COLD WAS TRANSFORMED ALREADY, the Freezer race transforms in order to lower his power. The reason Cold didn't use his strongest form is easy to understand:
1. He thought Mecha was stronger than him even after dis-transforming. So if Mecha had been defeated, he obviously assumed that he had no chance of winning in a fair fight.
2. He assumed it was Trunks' sword what allowed him to defeat Freezer so easily, and his strategy was to attack Trunks with Trunks' own sword. For that to work, the last thing he could do is to power up. I mean, if the "that's a good sword, let me see it" excuse wasn't cheap enough, imagine if Cold powered up to his max before asking for Trunk's sword. For Cold, at that point, transforming had no purpose.

But it's obvious he could transform, in fact, he was already transformed. Don't you remember that Freezeer's race's original form is the strongest one? I don't like speaking of other mangas, but even Frost who wasn't from the Cold clan (even if he was from the same race) had the same forms, and that character was created by Akira Toriyama (like kuriza, also from a different manga)...

-Gohan can know because Freeza never fought or powered-up. Gohan's statement was based on the fact that Freeza can power-up. That's what "“This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger" actually means. Freeza never "fought" anyone. He shot a generic Chi-blast and proceeded to get sliced up. There was no power-up that ever took place. What you're claiming is that line was, once again, another attempt to fool the readers by AT.

To fool the readers? No, it wasn't to fool the readers, it was to contextualise Freezer's power and why he was going to be defeated by someone that had the same power as SSJ Namek Goku.
And your explanation doesn't make much sense, because if at that point Freezer was (according to you) much stronger than before and Gohan was sensing a chi much bigger than the one he felt in Namek, what sense does it make for him to say what he said? Mecha's Ki was much lower than in Namek, that's why Gohan made the assumption Freezer could increase his power much more even when that wasn't the case.

-No. It was stated that a huge Chi appeared and a bunch of other Chi's disappeared. There was nothing brief about it. The power was sensed and no one knew who it was. Nothing about being too short to identify. You added that. Gohan didn't say anything because it was a completely unknown Chi that had no familiarity to it. You're still missing the point. It's not a power statement. Straight from Herms:

Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

If it hadn't been brief, Gohan would've known before Trunks turned into a SSJ that this man wasn't his father.
Then, regarding the statement, saying "the same ki" in that context also implies it being the same amount (besides other things), because Gohan was mistaking him with what he saw from Goku in Namek. I mean, you don't see a plastic ferrari car at 1/32 scale besides a real Ferrari and say "look, it's the same car!".
If SSJ Trunks had been much stronger than Namek Goku, Gohan would've stated it. Maybe he would've still thought Trunks was his father, but he would've said something like "it's my father, it's the same ki than in Namek, but it has become much stronger now!". Instead, he said Trunks had "the same ki" his father had in Namek, period.
But not only that, even Goku himself stated that he hadn't had much time to train in Yadrat and that the only thing he could do was learning to teleport, so...

-Gohan said what he said because it was the Chi of a Super Saiyan, not because it was similar in both size and type. You expect things to be stated a certain way when it's convenient, but this same logic doesn't apply when it's pointed out to you in various other instances where you think things have a certain meaning. Come on now.

??? I always expect things to be stated in the same way. Hey, I'm not saying that Freezer wasn't stating that he was stronger, that was pretty clear. What I'm saying is that Freezer's statement was wrong, which is different.
In that case, for Gohan to hide such vital information (according to you, he was feeling a much greater Ki and he said nothing about it) makes no sense. And Goku stating that he didn't have much time to train in Yadrat and still demonstrating that he was as strong as Trunks as a SSJ also reinforces this idea.

On the other hand, you argue that Mecha Freezer suddenly trained with his father even when it wasn't in his character to train (and in Toriyama's script for FnF he stated that he had never trained once before). His father, despite being of the same race and his direct ascendant, didn't have the same transformations than his son. Of course, Gohan can suddenly know how power is a fighter hiding from kilometers of distance, but that ability burned his brain because in front of a much bigger Ki than the one he felt in Namek with his father he just says "guys, that's my father" -heck, didn't he realise that his fellow fighters were all scared and that Goku having become much, much stronger would be a big relieve for them? Or maybe he enjoyed torturing his friends and hid that information while he was laughing at them-.
Gohan of course wasn't the only one being retarded, Freezer's reparations hadn't gone well with his brain and despite him being absolutely afraid of the SSJs he still attacked Trunks with a fraction of his strength.

-Goku isn't Piccolo. What Piccolo can do to Cell is irrelevant to Goku. The emphasis is on Goku's power in comparison to the Androids and Cell. He can't beat the Androids or Cell. It's a very clear statement. Cell's potential was never mentioned in any of the quotes made by Goku.

As far as I know Goku wasn't Gohan either, but he wasn't afraid of Bu because Gohan was simply much stronger. Why would he be afraid of that Cell that was desperately hidding from Piccolo and that even Vegeta could kill?
And Krilin's question of course wasn't about Ginger Town Cell, otherwise he would've included the androids, but then he couldn't have said anything about Freezer since the androids were weaker.

-It doesn't matter if Vegeta was losing stamina since the beginning because he was still weaker than her. Wanna know how an actual equal battle looks? Read Piccolo Vs #17. Piccolo did much better against #17 (someone who actually stated he was equal to him) than Vegeta did against someone he was supposedly equal to.

Read Goku vs Freezer round 1, and you'll see how that resembles Vegeta vs #18 before Vegeta gets tired a lot. Both fighters connect some hits, none of them does serious damage to the other.
Toriyama wanted to hype the Androids in the fight with Vegeta, so even if they had the same power, Toriyama opted for a fight where none of them would injury the other one despite being equals.
In the fight with #17, it was Piccolo the one being hyped (he still hadn't had the opportunity to show how strong he was) so he designed a more brutal fight. By the way, Piccolo was a bit stronger than #17, which would also explain why he performed better:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P5.5-7
Piccolo: “Your speed is pretty good...But your punch lacks weight.”
No.17: "What? Say, who do you think you’re talking to? I’m Android No.17, the strongest in history…”

Both have limited stamina, but Vegeta did far worse. Why? Because unlike the Vegeta battle, Piccolo was actually equal to his opponent. Vegeta wasn't equal to #18 in power or anything.

Again, you're using assumptions to go against stated facts. #18 fought seriously against Vegeta, and Vegeta managed to fight her evenly until he lost strength. Piccolo, as stated by himself, was a bit stronger than #17, that's why he lasted longer.

Piccolo was equal to #17 in power. Vegeta got destroyed. Piccolo didn't. #18 had the advantage over Vegeta in power and stamina. #17 had the advantage in stamina only. All of this is stated and shown.

If Cell hadn't stopped the fight, Piccolo was going to be as destroyed as Vegeta against #18. If #18 had any advantage in power over Vegeta, why were Trunks and the others saying what they said?
Even #17 agreed in that with some help they could've destroyed #18, and considering that everyone else was much weaker than Vegeta, that forcibly means that Vegeta was at #18 levels of power.

-Vegeta was helpless because he was weaker and outmatched in stamina. Piccolo wasn't helpless despite having the disadvantage against #17 in stamina, so that reasoning doesn't make any sense.

Piccolo wasn't helpless? If Cell hadn't entered in the scene, Piccolo would've lasted just a few minutes more.

If someone as arrogant as #17 can admit Piccolo is his equal, then it means what it says. #18 thinks Vegeta and Goku are both pathetic because they're not on her level.

Not pathetic, but nothing special. By the way, that's why #17 said about SSJ Vegeta:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P6.3-4
Context: after Vegeta fights No.18 for awhile
No.17: “I’m surprised…His strength greatly differs from what Doctor Gero’s data said, doesn’t it? Vegeta, huh?...He’s an incredible guy.”

Different characters, different personalities, different reactions in front of the same situation.

-Like I said, Gohan said the symptoms never appeared when they were training for the Androids. Using Super Saiyan there didn't matter because the heart virus wasn't a factor. When the symptoms began to appear (after flying to the battlefield), Super Saiyan put extra strain on him. There's no need to speculate Kaio-Ken x20 was used at any point beyond the Freeza saga.

When the symptoms appear, it means that the illness has already spread. There's a reason the same illness affected Goku more in the future timeline, and the reason behind it was made pretty obvious when the SSJ stress accelerated it all.

-Piccolo's power was large enough to rival both Androids. It means there's not a significant difference between #17 and #18, or #16 would've just said Piccolo rivaled #17 only to make it even more clear. That isn't stated, though. Piccolo rivals both Androids and Vegeta is a weakling to that same Piccolo. Vegeta doesn't rival #18. He says all of them easily surpassed the Super Saiyan. That means Piccolo, Androids, and Cell are >Super Saiyans.

Again, your assumptions against the facts. Vegeta wasn't a "weakling" against that Piccolo, he was certainly weaker, and Piccolo could get even stronger, but compared to ginger town Piccolo the difference with SSJ Vegeta wasn't as big (Vegeta was surprised because a Namekian had surpassed him, not because the difference was night and day huge like you imply).
Again, SSJ Vegeta = #18 < Piccolo < #17 fills that bill perfectly.

-#17 said #18 probably wouldn't be able to handle all of them. Vegeta said they were "absolutely useless" and would stand no chance against #18.

Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

So who's accurate? The guy who actually knows the power of everyone that arrived? Or the guy who speculates that she probably won't be able to handle them?

You mean Vegeta, the most arrogant prick of the series, the same guy Trunks didn't want to surpass in public because he thought Vegeta couldn't take it (even if at the end Trunks didn't surpass Vegeta?).
#17 said what he said based on Vegeta's performance, it doesn't matter if he didn't know Piccolo's power, because he had already seen what Trunks was capable of before. So, based on what he saw of Vegeta and Trunks (the data he had about Piccolo was completely outdated) he thought that #18 wouldn't be able to take them all. That has more weight than Vegeta's arrogant statement, of course (the same Vegeta that was convinced he could win against #18, don't forget it).

-Vegeta's training to get stronger. Both him and Gohan are shown training in Base for the purpose of getting stronger. Goku was shown training in Base as well despite Super Saiyan having no strain on him, so that reasoning doesn't apply. They can get stronger in every form when they train in it.

You're again making assumptions. A training has lots of aspects, from warming up to mental training to whatever AT had shown us during the series. Most of those trainings doesn't require to be a SSJ to be effective, and that doesn't mean that everything that's said about the limits suddenly is invalid.
Have you even a single PROOF that they can become stronger in their base states? Goku's 40 tons feat already proved you wrong, but be my guest, show me a single instance of base Vegeta or base Goku in the Bu saga that prove they're much stronger than in the Namek saga. A single feat. Because I've already provided a feat that proves my point, a feat an multiple statements that aren't contradicted anywhere...

-Gohan said he can get way stronger because he clearly was at a lesser level than he was on Namek. Freeza didn't power-up or fight when the statement was made. What does this mean? That Mecha Freeza was suppressed. There's no possibility that he didn't know the Mecha upgrade made him stronger. It's stated twice.

Finally we can agree on something! And tell me, why didn't Freezer fight with all his strength against Trunks if he was suppressed, as you say?
As I've said, there are multiple reasons that could justify Freezer's wrong assumption, you have to still explain why would Freezer fight a SSJ without all of his strength when he was scared as shit of them.

-Lol, now you want to play the semantics game. Bobbidi took Vegeta's dormant power and released it beyond his limits. Limits mean what they mean. That's the extent of their potential.

It's you who played with the semantics, adding a "natural" that changed the meaning of the sentence. No, limits in that context simply meant the limits of what Vegeta could actually do at that moment. That's also a limit, and you know it, that's why you added the "natural" word in the sentence to try to prove your point.

The Gohan statement is literally the same thing, except Old Kaioshin says he can go far far above the limits. Both statements are talking about going beyond their limits, so there's no reason to pretend it doesn't mean what it says.

Yes, both statements use the same expression, it's the context that make them different. Same words, different context, different meaning. That's what I'm saying.

-Goku said that he and Gohan have taken their bodies as far as they could, which is in line with what he said about not needing the rosat a 2nd time because it's torture moreso than training. Apply that same logic to what Vegeta said in the Android saga and there's no difference. You can't say Vegeta's statement is the only factual one and ignore Goku's. Both statements revolve around them hitting their limits. You just want to pretend the other is more valid than the other. That's being a hypocrite and assuming your interpretation is the only one that's reasonable. It isn't.

False. Goku said that entering the RoSAT again would stress his body a lot and that this would be torture more than training, that has nothing to do with him reaching his limits. You're spinning Goku's words to make your point.
What Goku says it's a pretty basic thing when training, if you over do it, you can get injured and even get in worse condition than you were before.

Goku simply came out of the RoSAT, assumed going there would do them no good, and so he didn't enter it again.
That has nothing to do with Vegeta training with no results for days or even months until he became so enraged with himself that he turned into a SSJ.

Don't pretend you can't see the difference, because the difference is obvious. Furthermore, Goku continued to train until the Cell games outside of the RoSAT, and he became stronger (as a SSJ) in the bu saga, also learning new transformations (SSJ2 and SSJ3) in the process.

-Vegeta went through long training and eventually reached his limits. That doesn't mean he trained with no results (saying he got no stronger in Base is lol when the results he wanted was Super Saiyan) at all. What it means is he realized he couldn't go any further after a certain point, got pissed, and awakened as a Super Saiyan. Simple. And that interpretation actually makes sense because it doesn't need to assume everyone else (Goku) is incorrect when limits are being brought up.

To realise his limits and get desperate, he had to train with no results (and not once or twice, but a lot more than that). Firstly, one think is reaching your limits, and another think is realising you've reached your limits. In Vegeta's case, he had no one to fight, no device to check his strength, so he probably took a time to realise that. And from then on, he still trained a lot with no results in order to become desperate enough to have a rage boost.

-Goku said he and Gohan wouldn't gain anything from a 2nd session in the rosat, and Goku says they've come as far as they could. It isn't his opinion at the time anymore than Vegeta's realization was his opinion at the time. That's called being objective. Stop cherry picking which statements count as evidence and what counts as opinion. It's very unreasonable.

No, he said they wouldn't gain from a 2nd session in the RoSAT, but nothing about they having come as far as their bodies would allow. In fact, he is saying that the RoSAT put too much strain on their bodies, and that since they already achieved what they wanted to achieve, they wouldn't enter the RoSAT a second time.
They never spoke about any limits there.

Edit: so that's what you meant:

This debate could take forever. I prefer to stop right now, as it's pretty clear that he won't change his mind no matter our arguments.

Yeah, you're most likely right. I should've taken the hint a long time ago

Goku and Gohan couldn't gain anything further from the rosat. They were at their limits. The last option was Gohan's dormant power. Nothing more, nothing less. Temporary limits have been a thing since Dragon Ball. I have no idea why there's suddenly an unwritten rule on what it stands for now.

In which case, it's just Goku trying to calm down Gohan because he felt Gohan was too worried. Remember that at that point Goku already knew that Gohan could reach the SSJ2, so it's obvious that he was aware of what surpassing the SSJ really meant.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

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