Gap between Kamiccolo and Super Saiyans

[Papasmurf]

No one can accurately guess how much more powerful he'd become- Cell's power far surpassed Piccolo's expectations in those few days for example. Cell was already more powerful than Trunks (who's only moderately weaker than Goku) and is described as a stupendously huge ki, so all in all it feels as though Goku was outclassed from the getgo rather than presuming he'd already been surpassed. And like I said, if he wasn't surpassed already he'd more likely say Cell's probably gotten stronger, rather than saying outright that he was stronger.

 

[ahill1]

No one can accurately guess how much more powerful he'd become- Cell's power far surpassed Piccolo's expectations in those few days for example.

But Goku only does need to know Cell was getting a lot stronger to conclude than now he is surpassed. It doesn't matter the fact that he can't accurately estimate how powerful Cell is becoming IMO.

See, I think Cell (Ginger Town) is > Vegeta, but Goku's comment does not imply Cell was already stronger than him from the getgo, me thinks.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks can't do anything to them as a Super Saiyan, but apparently can fight them well? Not much sense in what he says.

#17 thinks #18 can handle Trunks with ease alone, so whatever fight he put up couldn't have been anything special.

Trunks said he could fight them fairly well. Besides this, #17 doesn't say 18 could easily handle Trunks. He never said that.

There's nothing wrong with Trunks being able to give them a fairly good fight (like the fight Goku gave to Cell) IMO.

 

[Papasmurf]

Well like I said, the statement is just one of the many things implying Cell > Vegeta. In regards to that statement alone, most fighters (Goku included) don't automatically jump to conclusions about a fighter's superiority/inferiority without having seen them in action or feeling their ki. Goku was much stronger than Roshi 3 years before the 22nd tournament, but Roshi doesn't say outright that Goku was stronger until seeing him beat Kuririn. Goku also told Piccolo he can't say for sure if he can beat the cyborgs because he hasn't fought them yet, so it'd just feel weird for Goku to say that with certainty.

Other things imply this in general, like weighted Piccolo having an edge, but not outright slaughtering Cell (even feeling threatened by his Kamehameha despite its low amp), and Vegeta calling Cell's ki stupendously huge along with Piccolo's and saying everyone's surpassing the Super Saiyan. Goku's statement implies similar due to Goku only being slightly weaker than Vegeta, but it alone isn't absolute.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, after saying his Super Saiyan was absolutely no match for them.

Read between the lines. #17 thinks #18 can kill Trunks alone without his help and sees it as just one less toy they can play with. Nothing implies Trunks could give her a fight if she's sure her one blast will kill him. Trunks also said the difference in power between him and the Androids was huge after the battle was over with the Future Androids. So Trunks was nothing to the Androids. He's only close if you pretend that one quote on fighting them fairly well is the only one that exists.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah, after saying his Super Saiyan was absolutely no match for them.

Read between the lines. #17 thinks #18 can kill Trunks alone without his help and sees it as just one less toy they can play with. Nothing implies Trunks could give her a fight if she's sure her one blast will kill him. Trunks also said the difference in power between him and the Androids was huge after the battle was over with the Future Androids. So Trunks was nothing to the Androids. He's only close if you pretend that one quote on fighting them fairly well is the only one that exists.

To be fair, that statement was made just before Trunks traveled back in time to kill Freeza, and he's at least a lot stronger by the time he traveled again to the past.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I think the statement still establishes the Androids as being far above him, though. Trunks got stronger, but he still wanted no parts of them after that. Unless we're given a reason to assume he fought them again, fighting them "fairly well" in no way shows they're close in power.

 

[Papasmurf]

Just the fact that #17 expects #18 to be able to kill Trunks establishes the two are stronger. But he does seem to think the present androids have a much larger gap on him than the future ones, whereas the first time he was barely any stronger than future Gohan at the time of his death.

 

[ahill1]

@Evil Vegeta

#17 thinks #18 can kill Trunks alone without his help

All this does imply is Future 18 > Trunks, like Cell (suppressed) being > Goku. I never denied those future cyborgs are stronger than Trunks, just said there's nothing wrong with Trunks giving them a good fight. And I don't think the future ones fought them together, I think only one of them did (maybe 18).

sees it as just one less toy they can play with.

I think Victorious said that on another thread, #17 also thinks fighting Kamiccolo, an on par opponent, fun. Also, in the original japanese Anime (via the orange bricks), he called Trunks a good game. This could even imply Trunks is not that far off him, since he considers him a good game (like with Kamiccolo), what I don't think would be the case if Trunks was still far weaker than him.

Trunks also said the difference in power between him and the Androids was huge after the battle was over with the Future Androids.

Trunks said that before the Mecha Freeza saga. We are arguing Trunks from Androids saga, who could have gotten a lot stronger.



Also, jackjack once did good points about this. I'll post them:




- 17 expressing surprise at Trunks still being alive suggests they didn't purposely let him survive during their previous encounter, the one where Trunks gave them or one of them (which is more likely) a fight.
- If they really were hiding a significant amount of power from Trunks, why wouldn't 17 tell that to Trunks (who confidently states "This is the end for you guys...I've come here to finish you off..." pretty much what Gohan said right before the fight that left him dead) when he had no problem bragging about it to Gohan?
- If anything, the present cyborgs were the ones who had been suggested to be purposely holding back on everyone even after the duo trashed them all (Piccolo's quote that "we weren't even worth killing" comes to mind?). Yet Trunks still thinks these two cyborgs are stronger.

 

[Tapion]

In my opinion, it is uite a large gap. I have Piccolo being a distant rival to the SSjs, and with a 2x power boost he would one-shot everyone imo.

 

[ahill1]

In the Japanese anime via the orange bricks, #17 said he is playing with Kamiccolo (despite them being equal), so I'd not say him saying that too Future Trunks (we will lost a "good game") has to mean they are far superior to him IMO.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

No it just wasn't a strong enough argument for me to waste my time commenting on. I'm disdainfully reluctant in doing so.

Now you turn that argument of yours sumbeeeeetch-side-way.

Exactly.

What you said in your argument was entirely subjective and totally biased since you believe it's a fact. There's no quality in that statement for me to waste my time commenting on.

And shove it.

Exactly.

 

[kriss-]

Now you turn that argument of yours sumbeeeeetch-side-way.

Exactly.

What you said in your argument was entirely subjective and totally biased since you believe it's a fact. There's no quality in that statement for me to waste my time commenting on.

And shove it.

Exactly.

Any particular reason you're acting like this?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

What you said in your argument was entirely subjective and totally biased since you believe it's a fact. There's no quality in that statement for me to waste my time commenting on.

And shove it.

Exactly.

Any particular reason you're acting like this?

*shouta* "It doesn't matter what I act like."

Exactly.

 

[kriss-]

And shove it.

Exactly.

Any particular reason you're acting like this?

*shouta* "It doesn't matter what I act like."

Exactly.

k

 

[Evil Vegeta]

All this does imply is Future 18 > Trunks, like Cell (suppressed) being > Goku. I never denied those future cyborgs are stronger than Trunks, just said there's nothing wrong with Trunks giving them a good fight. And I don't think the future ones fought them together, I think only one of them did (maybe 18).

No, it doesn't. That's a huge assumption. Goku was outclassed by Cell, but he still made him resort to a barrier when his attacks started to do more and more damage. It doesn't make any sense to make a comparison like that because we're given no impression that Trunks did anything of note in his battle. Trunks said he was absolutely no match for the Androids as a Super Saiyan a few chapters before saying he put up a fairly good fight. All this shows is Trunks has no idea how he did against the Androids because he keeps saying different things.

I think Victorious said that on another thread, #17 also thinks fighting Kamiccolo, an on par opponent, fun. Also, in the original japanese Anime (via the orange bricks), he called Trunks a good game. This could even imply Trunks is not that far off him, since he considers him a good game (like with Kamiccolo), what I don't think would be the case if Trunks was still far weaker than him.

Main timeline #17 and Future #17 are entirely different, though. Also, the only reference of Trunks they'd have is their last battle--and Trunks says the difference in power was huge back then. So Trunks still ends up being weaker than the Androids by a good margin. The Androids like to run down battle with cars as a "Game", too, so there's no way of establishing what that means.

Trunks said that before the Mecha Freeza saga. We are arguing Trunks from Androids saga, who could have gotten a lot stronger.

Android saga Trunks never fought the Androids. I'm talking about the Trunks that fought the Androids and supposedly isn't too far from them in power. That Trunks is far weaker than the Androids. Naturally Android saga Trunks would do better, but that's not really the point here.

- 17 expressing surprise at Trunks still being alive suggests they didn't purposely let him survive during their previous encounter, the one where Trunks gave them or one of them (which is more likely) a fight.
- If they really were hiding a significant amount of power from Trunks, why wouldn't 17 tell that to Trunks (who confidently states "This is the end for you guys...I've come here to finish you off..." pretty much what Gohan said right before the fight that left him dead) when he had no problem bragging about it to Gohan?
- If anything, the present cyborgs were the ones who had been suggested to be purposely holding back on everyone even after the duo trashed them all (Piccolo's quote that "we weren't even worth killing" comes to mind?). Yet Trunks still thinks these two cyborgs are stronger.

- #17 expressed surprise that Gohan survived his last encounter against them as well. Doesn't change the fact that he held-back there. Trunks says the Androids were a lot stronger than him and that it was a miracle he survived. Simply put: if they wanted to finish him off, they would've. They most likely didn't care enough to bother checking because he was already heavily damaged.

- #17 doesn't need to state the exact same thing he said to Gohan to prove a point. He said Trunks "redefined the word fool" for challenging them again, which gets the point across just fine.

- I'm pretty sure it's stated they would've all died if Krillin didn't feed them any senzu. In other words, they were left in a near-death state after the battle.

 

[kriss-]

Wouldn't future Trunks be closer to the Future Androids -who are significantly weaker than the present ones, and doesn't that just make the gap between Trunks, Vegeta and the present Androids just that much larger? His feats mimic Piccolo's. Trunks was knocked out when he collided with a beaten up Vegeta, whom wasn't knocked out and was still going in for more.

Yea I don't think Trunks is close to Vegeta at all...

 

[ahill1]

No, it doesn't. That's a huge assumption

What is a huge assumption? Future Trunks giving more or less the same fought Goku give to Cell? Yea, it's an assumption, but it fits well with him saying he could fight them fairly well. Goku could fight Cell fairly well, Freeza (100%) could fight SSJ Goku fairly well. That's the same type of situation IMO.

Trunks did anything of note in his battle.

Why not? Trunks said he could fight them fairly well, so I think Trunks did something of note.

Trunks said he was absolutely no match for the Androids as a Super Saiyan

Piccolo also said FPSSJ Goku was no match for Cell. Tao Pai Pai was also described as being no match for Goku (post Karin), despite being able to fight him fairly well. Granpa Gohan also said he was no match for Son Goku, despite them fighting pretty evenly. Being no match doesn't have to imply a large gap IMO.

Also, Trunks said that they should wait Goku. But even if Trunks = future #18 and Vegeta = future #17, they would most likely end up losing. What it does imply is that they all cannot be much below the future duo, since ganging up would work, which goes hand in hand with Trunks being able to fight them IMO.

Main timeline #17 and Future #17 are entirely different, though.

The difference consists on Future #17 being entirely bad and enjoying from destruction, while present #17 not. That doesn't imply their conceptions of someone being a good toy or not is different. Present #17 said he was playing with Kamiccolo, despite the being equal, while future #17 said they would lost a "good game". I don't see how this does imply Trunks is far weaker, seeing present #17 considered he was playing with an opponent = to him.

Android saga Trunks never fought the Androids. I'm talking about the Trunks that fought the Androids and supposedly isn't too far from them in power. That Trunks is far weaker than the Androids. Naturally Android saga Trunks would do better, but that's not really the point here.

We are arguing about Android saga Trunks, who should be >> Mecha saga Trunks. And I think he fought against the Androids again, since he said he could fight them fairly well, whereas before the gap between them was huge.

Also, if Trunks did not fight the Androids again, would not this invalidate future #17 and Future #18's comments about Trunks being a "play" (which I don't think has to imply Trunks cannot fight them well)? If they don't know how strong is Androids saga Trunks, their statements must be referring to Trunks Mecha saga, no?

#17 doesn't need to state the exact same thing he said to Gohan to prove a point. He said Trunks "redefined the word fool" for challenging them again, which gets the point across just fine.

#17 did not say that in the Steve Simmon's translations, he only said that no one looks good wasting their strength. If #17 did not say what he said to Gohan (I did not use even half of my power), he probably did not hid power from Trunks IMO.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

What is a huge assumption? Future Trunks giving more or less the same fought Goku give to Cell? Yea, it's an assumption, but it fits well with him saying he could fight them fairly well. Goku could fight Cell fairly well, Freeza (100%) could fight SSJ Goku fairly well. That's the same type of situation IMO.

Goku made Cell resort to a barrier, Freeza plowed through Goku's KMH and knocked him into the water. We have exactly nothing to assume Trunks' fight with the Androids played out in similar fashion. Trunks could've just landed a few attacks before being dominated.

Why not? Trunks said he could fight them fairly well, so I think Trunks did something of note.

Fighting fairly well can mean a lot of things. It could mean he wasn't ko'ed in a few attacks like he was against the Present Androids. By his own admission, the Androids were far above him, so he wasn't in their league.

Piccolo also said FPSSJ Goku was no match for Cell. Tao Pai Pai was also described as being no match for Goku (post Karin), despite being able to fight him fairly well. Granpa Gohan also said he was no match for Son Goku, despite them fighting pretty evenly. Being no match doesn't have to imply a large gap IMO.

Goku said Cyborg Tao was no match for Tien and he was knocked out in one hit. The same Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku said Piccolo was no match for Cell, Vegeta said he was no match for Kid Boo and got dominated. As you can see, being no match for someone doesn't have one meaning. Trunks said he was no match for the Future Androids because they were "stupendously strong". The fact that he's saying this in the Android saga shows in his mind that the Future Androids are still well above him.

Also, Trunks said that they should wait Goku. But even if Trunks = future #18 and Vegeta = future #17, they would most likely end up losing. What it does imply is that they all cannot be much below the future duo, since ganging up would work, which goes hand in hand with Trunks being able to fight them IMO.

And ganging up would work based on what exactly? #17's quote? He already said he doesn't know how strong Vegeta was because the data was incorrect and he has no data of Trunks. He was perfectly fine letting an unknown #16 fight. So really, #17 saying #18 "probably can't take them on" is not that strong of a statement.

The difference consists on Future #17 being entirely bad and enjoying from destruction, while present #17 not. That doesn't imply their conceptions of someone being a good toy or not is different. Present #17 said he was playing with Kamiccolo, despite the being equal, while future #17 said they would lost a "good game". I don't see how this does imply Trunks is far weaker, seeing present #17 considered he was playing with an opponent = to him.

The "good game" line isn't in the Manga, but it doesn't make a difference here. Trunks said he was far weaker than the Androids, so by his own admission, he isn't close to them.

We are arguing about Android saga Trunks, who should be >> Mecha saga Trunks. And I think he fought against the Androids again, since he said he could fight them fairly well, whereas before the gap between them was huge.

Fighting the Androids again wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. He said Goku gave him hope that he could change things and that he'll return in three years if he's alive. Why would he risk this opportunity knowing he might not survive another encounter against them? Trunks also says he came back in hopes of finding a weakness or possibly bringing Goku to his timeline to handle the Androids himself. He did not fight the Androids again.

Also, if Trunks did not fight the Androids again, would not this invalidate future #17 and Future #18's comments about Trunks being a "play" (which I don't think has to imply Trunks cannot fight them well)? If they don't know how strong is Androids saga Trunks, their statements must be referring to Trunks Mecha saga, no?

It doesn't because the point of the statement was to show that Trunks was nothing more than entertainment for them. He wasn't as strong as them, nor could he ever hope to stop them. The Androids in general don't think much of Trunks. This fact is further enforced when #18 thinks she can kill Trunks with a single blast. He's a lot weaker and can't even deal with one Android on his own--much less both. We have Trunks telling us countless times that the Androids' power are on a different level and that he's no match for them. One statement of fighting fairly well does not mean we should discard everything else.

#17 did not say that in the Steve Simmon's translations, he only said that no one looks good wasting their strength. If #17 did not say what he said to Gohan (I did not use even half of my power), he probably did not hid power from Trunks IMO.

I'm not talking about the Anime. In the Manga, #17 says exactly what I said above. Also, you're assuming #17 needs to use less than half power to always be holding-back. Not true at all. If #17 fought Trunks with 80-90% of his power, he'd still be holding-back his power. Therefore, he does not need to repeat what he said to Gohan.

 

[ahill1]

Goku made Cell resort to a barrier, Freeza plowed through Goku's KMH and knocked him into the water. We have exactly nothing to assume Trunks' fight with the Androids played out in similar fashion. Trunks could've just landed a few attacks before being dominated.

When I brought these fights, I was just saying what fight fairly well means. I'd not say Trunks took the future Android to an extreme, but there's Trunks saying he could fight them fairly well; therefore, I'm not basing it in nothing, but in Trunk's own words.

Fighting fairly well can mean a lot of things. It could mean he wasn't ko'ed in a few attacks like he was against the Present Androids. By his own admission, the Androids were far above him, so he wasn't in their league.

I don't think there's such subjectiveness in "fairly well"... it means at least a somewhat competitive fight, that is, a non-ass kick gap. Goku can fight Cell fairly well, Freeza can fight SSJ Goku fairly well, etc.

By his own admission, the Androids were far above him, so he wasn't in their league.

He did not say that in the Androids saga though. He only said that regarding their powers before the Mecha Freeza saga.

Goku said Cyborg Tao was no match for Tien and he was knocked out in one hit. The same Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku said Piccolo was no match for Cell, Vegeta said he was no match for Kid Boo and got dominated. As you can see, being no match for someone doesn't have one meaning.

That's not my point though. There are examples where "no match" means a large gap, yes, but like I showed, there are moments where "no match" is used when the weaker fighter can fight fairly well against the strongest (see Grandpa Gohan vs Goku). "No match" doesn't have to mean the weaker fighter is that much outclassed.

The fact that he's saying this in the Android saga shows in his mind that the Future Androids are still well above him.

Like I said, this doesn't have to mean this.

And ganging up would work based on what exactly? #17's quote? He already said he doesn't know how strong Vegeta was because the data was incorrect and he has no data of Trunks. He was perfectly fine letting an unknown #16 fight. So really, #17 saying #18 "probably can't take them on" is not that strong of a statement.

Ganging up would work according to Trunks' words. Trunks said they would never win until Goku gets better and they all fight together. So, ganging up could work, what might mean Trunks is not that weaker than the future Androids.

It doesn't because the point of the statement was to show that Trunks was nothing more than entertainment for them. He wasn't as strong as them, nor could he ever hope to stop them. The Androids in general don't think much of Trunks. This fact is further enforced when #18 thinks she can kill Trunks with a single blast. He's a lot weaker and can't even deal with one Android on his own--much less both. We have Trunks telling us countless times that the Androids' power are on a different level and that he's no match for them. One statement of fighting fairly well does not mean we should discard everything else.

You missed my point. According to you, Trunks did not fight the Androids again. So, the Androids were basing Trunks' strength on the last fight they had, when Trunks was not that much above Son Gohan (1 arm), who was not that much above less than half #17. But it happens Trunks (Androids saga) was >> Mecha saga Trunks.

And like I said, Trunks only said he was absolutely no match for the Androids, which doesn't have to imply he could not fight them fairly well. "No match" was used in Goku vs Tao Pai Pai (when Tao could put up a fight), Grandpa Gohan vs Goku (when Grandpa Gohan could fight his grandson pretty well). Again, I'm not saying "no match" has to mean a close gap. Just saying Trunks pointing out he was no match doesn't have to mean he couldn't fight them fairly well.