Gap between Kamiccolo and Super Saiyans

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
Anyway, Evil Vegeta, could you show me your numbers?

Trunks SSJ (Mecha saga)
Goku SSJ (Mecha saga)
Trunks SSJ (Androids saga)
Goku SSJ (Androids saga)
Vegeta SSJ (Androids saga)
Future #18
Future #17
 

Evil Vegeta

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
3,428
ahill1 said:
When I brought these fights, I was just saying what fight fairly well means. I'd not say Trunks took the future Android to an extreme, but there's Trunks saying he could fight them fairly well; therefore, I'm not basing it in nothing, but in Trunk's own words.

There's no context to Trunks' words, which leaves the interpretation of the battle open.

I don't think there's such subjectiveness in "fairly well"... it means at least a somewhat competitive fight, that is, a non-ass kick gap. Goku can fight Cell fairly well, Freeza can fight SSJ Goku fairly well, etc.

Trunks can barely escape dealing with one Android.

A non-ass kick difference in power is all opinion. If someone says the difference between them and their opponent is huge, that they could barely deal with one Android, and that Super Saiyan means nothing because they were "absolutely outmatched", then it further shows that he most likely got his ass kicked in the battle.

He did not say that in the Androids saga though. He only said that regarding their powers before the Mecha Freeza saga.

Doesn't matter. He only fought them once, so everything said about them is in regards to how he compares to them in his mind.

That's not my point though. There are examples where "no match" means a large gap, yes, but like I showed, there are moments where "no match" is used when the weaker fighter can fight fairly well against the strongest (see Grandpa Gohan vs Goku). "No match" doesn't have to mean the weaker fighter is that much outclassed.

I know exactly what your point is. I just don't agree with it.

Like I said, this doesn't have to mean this.

Trunks could've easily threw in a "Well, I've improved a lot since then" and never did once. That goes to show that he still looked at the Future Androids the same way he did back when he fought them. As "monsters with power beyond imagination", like he said.

Ganging up would work according to Trunks' words. Trunks said they would never win until Goku gets better and they all fight together. So, ganging up could work, what might mean Trunks is not that weaker than the future Androids.

Trunks tells Vegeta they have absolutely no chance to win unless they wait for Goku so everyone can fight together. He's just saying that fighting together with Goku is their only chance at winning, not that they would definitely win with him.

You missed my point. According to you, Trunks did not fight the Androids again. So, the Androids were basing Trunks' strength on the last fight they had, when Trunks was not that much above Son Gohan (1 arm), who was not that much above less than half #17. But it happens Trunks (Androids saga) was >> Mecha saga Trunks.

The Androids not giving two shits about Trunks' strength is my point. He's a non-factor to them and can be easily killed when going by #18 resorting to a simple Chi-blast. In their eyes, he can't do anything to them, meaning he's much weaker.

And like I said, Trunks only said he was absolutely no match for the Androids, which doesn't have to imply he could not fight them fairly well. "No match" was used in Goku vs Tao Pai Pai (when Tao could put up a fight), Grandpa Gohan vs Goku (when Grandpa Gohan could fight his grandson pretty well). Again, I'm not saying "no match" has to mean a close gap. Just saying Trunks pointing out he was no match doesn't have to mean he couldn't fight them fairly well.

-Says the Androids were a lot more powerful than him after believing he gained enough power to defeat them.

-Can barely escape fighting one Android, even though he can supposedly make both of them fight at full-power

-Believes they're monsters with power beyond imagination, but he's not much weaker than the Androids so their power can't be all that hard to imagine.

-Ignores Piccolo's admission of Vegeta possibly standing a chance against the Androids because his own Super Saiyan power was absolutely no match for the stupendous power of the Androids.

-Trunks can fight the Androids of his timeline because their power wasn't as outrageous as the Present Androids.

Takeaway: Trunks is a lot weaker than the Androids from both timelines. The Present Androids just have a bigger advantage than the Future Androds. That statement alone does not imply he's close to the Future Androids, so he can be weaker than both versions just fine. Trunks gives conflicting statements on the matter, so none of this is precise.

Trunks (Mecha): 160 million
Goku (Mecha): 180 million
Trunks (Android): 290 million
Goku (Android): 300 million
Vegeta (Android): 320 million
Piccolo: 250 million
Future #17: 400 million
Future #18: 390 million
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
Trunks can barely escape dealing with one Android.

Again, this comment was made before the Androids saga. The future Androids are obviously >> Mecha saga Trunks (who is not much above one armed Gohan).

A non-ass kick difference in power is all opinion. If someone says the difference between them and their opponent is huge, that they could barely deal with one Android,

Which, again, was made before the Androids saga. Trunks (Androids saga) >> Trunks (Mecha saga). Trunks from Mecha saga was a fodder garbage, whereas Trunks form Androids saga is a distant rival.

Doesn't matter. He only fought them once, so everything said about them is in regards to how he compares to them in his mind.

Actually it matters a lot. And I don't think he only fought them once, since he went from calling the gap between him and the Androids huge to saying he could fight them fairly well. What you don't see is that Trunks (Androids saga) got much stronger.

I know exactly what your point is. I just don't agree with it.

My point is that "no match" doesn't have to mean Trunks cannot fight them fairly well. "No match" was used before when the inferior character could fight the superior one fairly well.

The Androids not giving two shits about Trunks' strength is my point. He's a non-factor to them and can be easily killed when going by #18 resorting to a simple Chi-blast. In their eyes, he can't do anything to them, meaning he's much weaker.

Except Trunks (Androids saga) is considerably stronger than Mecha saga Trunks. If the Future Androids don't know about how strong is Trunks during the Androids saga, this doesn't matter IMO. But like Victorious pointed out on Neoseeker, #17 calling Trunks a "good game" doesn't have to imply Trunks is far inferior than them.

Trunks tells Vegeta they have absolutely no chance to win unless they wait for Goku so everyone can fight together. He's just saying that fighting together with Goku is their only chance at winning, not that they would definitely win with him.

But as you can see, the three SSJs ganging up could still work on Trunks' mind, which could imply they are at least on their level. Like I said, even if Vegeta was = #17 and Trunks = #18, they would still end up losing.


Trunks is a lot weaker than the Androids from both timelines.

No, Trunks is not a lot weaker than the Future Androids, as he said he could fight them fairly well. He is a distant rival IMO. You're acting like your opinion is a fact, whereas is not. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum disagrees with you on this matter.

The statements about Trunks saying the gap between him and the Androids was huge, or he being barely able to escape alive were made before the second travel to the past, when Trunks still hadn't the power to fight them fairly well.

-Ignores Piccolo's admission of Vegeta possibly standing a chance against the Androids because his own Super Saiyan power was absolutely no match for the stupendous power of the Androids.

Like I said, this only does imply Trunks was still weaker than the future duo, not a lot weaker. And again, Tao Pai Pai was considered no match for Goku, despite being fairly close. Goku FPSSJ was considered no match for Cell, despite being able to fight him fairly well. Hell, Grandpa Gohan said he was no match for Goku, despite them being basically equal. Not saying "no match" does imply a small difference, only saying doesn't have to imply a big difference.

And, again, even if Vegeta was equal to 17 and Trunks was equal to 18, they would probably still end up losing. This in no way implys there's a big difference between Trunks and the Androids. Trunks (Androids saga) could very well be a distant rival of them.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
Trunks (Mecha): 160 million
Goku (Mecha): 180 million
Trunks (Android): 290 million
Goku (Android): 300 million
Vegeta (Android): 320 million
Piccolo: 250 million
Future #17: 400 million
Future #18: 390 million

This doesn't work IMO. Future Gohan 1 arm (weaker than Trunks) was already noticeable stronger than less than half future #17. 180,000,000 should be one armed Gohan's power level. Trunks (Mecha saga) should be already at half of Future #17 power, with Goku (Mecha saga) being close to 60% #17.

This would also imply Goku and Vegeta in the Androids saga are already at the future Androids level, right?

Goku [Mecha saga] was already at 60% of future #17
Goku SSJ sick was considerably stronger than Goku [Mecha saga], making him ~66% of future #17
Android #19 (post Absorptions) was probably at sick Goku's level, making him also at ~66% of future #17
Dr. Gero (post Absorptions) was considered, by Piccolo, as being able to whoop Trunks' [Mecha saga] ass, making him at ~70% of future #17
Piccolo was considerably stronger than Gero (post)
The three Super Saiyans are considerably stronger than Piccolo (so I don't see how the 3 SSJs [mainly Goku and Vegeta] would be that weaker than the future Androids).
 

Evil Vegeta

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
3,428
ahill1 said:
Again, this comment was made before the Androids saga. The future Androids are obviously >> Mecha saga Trunks (who is not much above one armed Gohan).

It doesn't matter when the comment was made. This is the only Trunks shown to fight the Androids. There's no reason he had an unknown fight with them that was never elaborated on.

Which, again, was made before the Androids saga. Trunks (Androids saga) >> Trunks (Mecha saga). Trunks from Mecha saga was a fodder garbage, whereas Trunks form Androids saga is a distant rival.

A distant rival to the Androids?

Actually it matters a lot. And I don't think he only fought them once, since he went from calling the gap between him and the Androids huge to saying he could fight them fairly well. What you don't see is that Trunks (Androids saga) got much stronger.

Actually, saying that goes in line with him being absolutely no match for them. Read Trunks' dialogue when he's in the airship. Fighting the Androids again would've been utterly stupid on his end.

My point is that "no match" doesn't have to mean Trunks cannot fight them fairly well. "No match" was used before when the inferior character could fight the superior one fairly well.

My point is Trunks fought the Androids once and therefore was much weaker than them. Whether he got stronger in a proceeding arc wouldn't change this fact.

Except Trunks (Androids saga) is considerably stronger than Mecha saga Trunks. If the Future Androids don't know about how strong is Trunks during the Androids saga, this doesn't matter IMO. But like Victorious pointed out on Neoseeker, #17 calling Trunks a "good game" doesn't have to imply Trunks is far inferior than them.

They don't need to know how currently strong he is in the Android arc to know he couldn't do shit to them in their battle. They can't sense power, so it's not like they have anything other than the fight to go off of. If someone is able to give two people a fairly good fight, then one of the two people is not going to assume the other person can win alone unless he's confident in their power to win alone. #17 thinks #18 can kill Trunks alone. It's that simple. You're over-complicating it. He just calls him a toy in the Manga. Nothing more.

Trunks tells Vegeta they have absolutely no chance to win unless they wait for Goku so everyone can fight together. He's just saying that fighting together with Goku is their only chance at winning, not that they would definitely win with him.

No, Trunks is not a lot weaker than the Future Androids, as he said he could fight them fairly well. He is a distant rival IMO.

Still doesn't change the point. The Trunks that fought them fairly well tells us he's a lot weaker. Furthermore, you have absolutely no proof he engaged in another pointless battle when he 1) told Bulma he was stupid for challenging them, and 2) when he wanted to return to the past to see Goku expose a weakness in the Androids. Therefore, the idea of him tangling with the Androids again has no merit.

You're acting like your opinion is a fact, whereas is not. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum disagrees with you on this matter.

You're acting like I really care about group-think. Everyone can share your opinion if they please, but that doesn't mean I need to be a follower.

The statements about Trunks saying the gap between him and the Androids was huge, or he being barely able to escape alive were made before the second travel to the past, when Trunks still hadn't the power to fight them fairly well.

Does it matter? There's no proof he fought the Androids again and goes against everything he said on the airship. If he fought them again, why in the world would this have not been made clear for everyone to see?

Like I said, this only does imply Trunks was still weaker than the future duo, not a lot weaker. And again, Tao Pai Pai was considered no match for Goku, despite being fairly close. Goku FPSSJ was considered no match for Cell, despite being able to fight him fairly well. Hell, Grandpa Gohan said he was no match for Goku, despite them being basically equal. Not saying "no match" does imply a small difference, only saying doesn't have to imply a big difference.

You can keep citing those situations as if they apply here. I'll gladly cite situations where "being no match" alone establishes a huge difference. Being "absolutely no match" further reinforces this fact. What you're saying is you believe it doesn't imply a big difference because you're saying a statement he made a few chapters later implies he fought them again. There's no reason to assume such a thing ever happened.

And, again, even if Vegeta was equal to 17 and Trunks was equal to 18, they would probably still end up losing. This in no way implys there's a big difference between Trunks and the Androids. Trunks (Androids saga) could very well be a distant rival of them.

He's no match for their stupendous power even by Android saga standards. If he was that close, he wouldn't need to label their power as "stupendous" because by your logic he'd be right near their power.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
Why he could not have fought the Androids again? His quote implies it: he went form being not much above 50% #17, and still being hugely weaker than them to being able to fight with them fairly well.

And again, being no match doesn't have to imply he could not fight them fairly well, even more when he latter said he could do so. Goku FPSSJ was said to be no match for Cell and yet was able to fight him fairly well. The same situation with Goku vs Tao Pai Pai and Goku vs Grandpa Gohan.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
Also, if you don't believe Trunks fought the Androids again, future #17 and #18 quotes later on are irrelevants.
 

Evil Vegeta

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
3,428
ahill1 said:
This doesn't work IMO. Future Gohan 1 arm (weaker than Trunks) was already noticeable stronger than less than half future #17. 180,000,000 should be one armed Gohan's power level. Trunks (Mecha saga) should be already at half of Future #17 power, with Goku (Mecha saga) being close to 60% #17.

First off, Gohan only needs to be stronger than #17 using less than half of his power. We don't know how much he used--only that it wasn't half of his power. If Gohan surpasses that, then everything else works out fine. Gohan doesn't even think he has much of a chance of surviving the battle to begin with, so he ain't noticeably stronger than anyone. Goku's increase on Yardrat does not need to be that high because most of the time was for learning Teleport and Super Saiyan control. Gohan never said anything about Goku being that different than he was on Namek, so all he needs is a slight increase. I don't seen an issue with 150-180 on Yardrat.

Trunks thought he was strong enough to beat the Androids and Bulma said he's probably not much different than Gohan was. The first thing Trunks says when he awakens is that she was right before admitting the Androids were a lot stronger than him. So Bulma saying Trunks was stronger, but not to a point where he was much different than Gohan is fine.

This would also imply Goku and Vegeta in the Androids saga are already at the future Androids level, right?

Yet Trunks still thinks Vegeta isn't going to be a match for the Androids.

Goku [Mecha saga] was already at 60% of future #17

If we're to assume Trunks has to be half of #17's power and much different than Gohan when everything says otherwise.

Goku SSJ sick was considerably stronger than Goku [Mecha saga], making him ~66% of future #17

Just stronger. Tien had no way of comprehending the power of Super Saiyan until he saw him fight for awhile. When he first transformed, Piccolo already knew he was a lot weaker, whereas Tien is acting like he never saw Super Saiyan Goku before.

Android #19 (post Absorptions) was probably at sick Goku's level, making him also at ~66% of future #17

Again, why? He raised his power, but we don't know to what extent.

Dr. Gero (post Absorptions) was considered, by Piccolo, as being able to whoop Trunks' [Mecha saga] ass, making him at ~70% of future #17
Piccolo was considerably stronger than Gero (post)

No, he wasn't. Piccolo presented two possibilities. One of them being that these Androids were hella overrated compared to what they heard from Trunks, or that they got too strong from training. If one was to say Gero was simply overrated, it wouldn't be wrong because both possibilities are mentioned. I personally think it's a mix of the two.

The three Super Saiyans are considerably stronger than Piccolo (so I don't see how the 3 SSJs [mainly Goku and Vegeta] would be that weaker than the future Androids).

They're stronger than Piccolo. That's really all there is to it. If we look at how Kami refers to Mecha Trunks while seemingly ignoring green man, then Piccolo could even be weaker than that. I don't think a 2x assimilation would make sense if Piccolo is that far below the Super Saiyans.
 

Evil Vegeta

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
3,428
ahill1 said:
Why he could not have fought the Androids again? His quote implies it: he went form being not much above 50% #17, and still being hugely weaker than them to being able to fight with them fairly well.

Maybe because it'd be a stupid idea? Maybe because he wanted to live long enough to watch Goku expose the weaknesses of the Androids like he actually says? Fighting them again would indeed be stupid because Trunks has already admitted fighting one Android is too much for him.

And again, being no match doesn't have to imply he could not fight them fairly well, even more when he latter said he could do so. Goku FPSSJ was said to be no match for Cell and yet was able to fight him fairly well. The same situation with Goku vs Tao Pai Pai and Goku vs Grandpa Gohan.

Trunks did fairly well despite being absolutely no match for the stupendous power of the Androids. Long story short: they're incredibly strong and Trunks is can't beat them. They're not close.

Also, if you don't believe Trunks fought the Androids again, future #17 and #18 quotes later on are irrelevants.

It also makes his fairly well statement irrelevant because by his own admission the Androids had a rather huge advantage in power when they fought. Trunks not fighting them again helps prove my a point a lot more.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
Maybe because it'd be a stupid idea? Maybe because he wanted to live long enough to watch Goku expose the weaknesses of the Androids like he actually says? Fighting them again would indeed be stupid because Trunks has already admitted fighting one Android is too much for him.

But again, he could fight the Androids fairly well, whereas he could not before. Maybe he thought he had acquired enough power so he could challenge them?
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
Trunks did fairly well despite being absolutely no match for the stupendous power of the Androids. Long story short: they're incredibly strong and Trunks is can't beat them. They're not close.

But again, being "no match" doesn't have to mean Trunks did not fight fairly well. Like I said, Tao Pai Pai was considered no match for Goku, despite being able to fight him fairly well. Grandpa Gohan said he was no match for Goku, despite being able to fight him pretty well. Trunks being no match for them doesn't have to imply they are way stronger than him, only that they are stronger, what added to infinite stamina, would make Trunks' victory over them impossible. Trunks could very well be close to them and yet cannot defeat them. You are acting like your opinion is a fact, whereas is not.

I don't think Trunks had to necessarily fight them again to coclude he could fight them fairly well, either. He should just have deduced that with his new powers, he could fight them fairly well.
 

Evil Vegeta

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
3,428
You keep bringing up all of these others battles and it really changes nothing. I can go down a list of "no match" battles where a huge difference (like Trunks said there was) was stated, too. I won't because there's no reason to. It's all an assumption. The only facts made clear is Trunks is weaker than the Androids by a huge amount and their power is beyond imagination despite putting up a fairly good fight.

Trunks said his Super Saiyan was no match for the Androids' stupendous power without even mentioning their infinite stamina. That makes it entirely based on power. No one's opinion is fact, so let's just leave that alone.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,403
You keep bringing up all of these others battles and it really changes nothing. I can go down a list of "no match" battles where a huge difference (like Trunks said there was) was stated, too. I won't because there's no reason to. It's all an assumption. The only facts made clear is Trunks is weaker than the Androids by a huge amount and their power is beyond imagination despite putting up a fairly good fight.

When I brought up this battles, I was just pointing out that "no match" doesn't have to imply a big difference. Trunks could be no match for them and yet be able to put up a good fight. I know all those instances where "no match" is used when there's a huge difference, but that's not my point. Again, Trunks was weaker than the Androids by a huge amount when he had the power of the Mecha Freeza saga. Trunks (Androids saga) got a lot stronger and could fight them fairly well.

Trunks said his Super Saiyan was no match for the Androids' stupendous power without even mentioning their infinite stamina. That makes it entirely based on power. No one's opinion is fact, so let's just leave that alone.

Which, again, doesn't have to indicate a big difference in power, like when Tao Pai Pai was not hugely weaker than Goku (post Karin), or Grandpa Gohan was not hugely weaker than Son Goku (Baba Tournament).
 

Latest profile posts

LlfudXi.gif
Trump is the rightful democratically elected president of Brazil :trump
Top